The Power of the Cross

[RichardBurger]

Yes!



And so what happens when we don't persevere? The Bible tells us we will be cut-off.

You still do not hear that is what I am saying, yes, it is the Lord in us, that is why I gave those versus, it is His life we are living, not our own, He gets the glory!

He is the overcomer, He lives in us, which makes us the overcomer only because of Him, yet John tells us IF we abide in Him. James tells us faith without works is dead. Jesus said if you obey my commandments. These are things we do.

You are preaching the "feel good carnal" gospel, where sin is not a big deal. Yet, the Bible tells us to be holy as our Father is holy, be perfect, let us go onto perfection - that is the power of the gospel, when we are abiding in Him.

It's disturbing when so much scripture is ignored.

The fact that you brought up James shows that you are teaching a gospel that part law and part grace. Paul was sent to the Gentile with a "hidden in God" gospel of grace. The 12 never preached a gospel of grace in the book of Acts.

The book of James was written to the Jews who were under the law. It says so in James 1:1. But the religous want to use it in the grace church to place those under grace back under the law.

You said; "You are preaching the "feel good carnal" gospel, where sin is not a big deal.

My comment: it was a big enough deal that Jesus gave His life to pay for it and that only His shed blood on the cross could pay for it.

You said; "Yet, the Bible tells us to be holy as our Father is holy, be perfect,

My comment: that is straight out of the book of Matthew to a people that were under the law of Moses. Jesus did not say it to the Gentiles.

You said; "let us go onto perfection - that is the power of the gospel, when we are abiding in Him."

My comment: And there you have it, man trying to become perfect by the power of sinful flesh. We can only abide "in Him" by faith in His work on the cross. You can't buy salvation by working for it. It is a free gift of grace.

 

[Jake]

The fact that you brought up James shows that you are teaching a gospel that part law and part grace. Paul was sent to the Gentile with a "hidden in God" gospel of grace. The 12 never preached a gospel of grace in the book of Acts.

The book of James was written to the Jews who were under the law. It says so in James 1:1. But the religous want to use it in the grace church to place those under grace back under the law.

You said; "You are preaching the "feel good carnal" gospel, where sin is not a big deal.

My comment: it was a big enough deal that Jesus gave His life to pay for it and that only His shed blood on the cross could pay for it.

You said; "Yet, the Bible tells us to be holy as our Father is holy, be perfect,

My comment: that is straight out of the book of Matthew to a people that were under the law of Moses. Jesus did not say it to the Gentiles.

You said; "let us go onto perfection - that is the power of the gospel, when we are abiding in Him."

My comment: And there you have it, man trying to become perfect by the power of sinful flesh. We can only abide "in Him" by faith in His work on the cross. You can't buy salvation by working for it. It is a free gift of grace.

Ah, I see.....this is even more disturbing, you are preaching an entirely different gospel than the one presented to us in the NT. You have found a "hidden gospel", within the gospel itself. How many more "hidden gospels" are there, Richard?

There is only one gospel, even the gospel itself tells us there is only one. In fact, the entire gospel was written to all believers, everywhere for all time.

Yet, this also proves the point, that walking in His Spirit is essential, otherwise we might fall into the trap of following after another "hidden gospel".

 

[Prentis]

Yes. Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. One.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

It's kind of a what came first, the chicken or the egg, sorta deal. Salvation came by God's grace first by his work on the cross, then we choose to turn from sin and place our faith in what he did, then he places in us the power to do what as he did. Christ died and then was resurrected on the third day. We too must die to ourselves by giving our lives to God, before our new lives can begin.

Not doing as Jesus did just proves there wasn't any faith placed in him in the first place, otherwise there would be results. If we truly trust him, then a relationship will form, and out of that relationship, that love will develop into obedience. It's not as though we earn God's favor, but he has placed a cause and effect principle, and when he changes our hearts on the inside, there will be a change on the outside. A bad tree won't produce good fruit and a good tree will.

So if I don't have good works, then I am probably headed in the wrong direction, not because good works save me, but because God has made me a new creation, which causes me to want to do good things out of loving obedience.

 

[RichardBurger]

Ah, I see.....this is even more disturbing, you are preaching an entirely different gospel than the one presented to us in the NT. You have found a "hidden gospel", within the gospel itself. How many more "hidden gospels" are there, Richard?

There is only one gospel, even the gospel itself tells us there is only one. In fact, the entire gospel was written to all believers, everywhere for all time.

Yet, this also proves the point, that walking in His Spirit is essential, otherwise we might fall into the trap of following after another "hidden gospel".

I teach the hidden in God gospel that was given to Paul for the Gentiles. What gospel are you teaching?

Ephesians 3:8-9
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
NKJV

Luke 18:9-14
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV
There is nothing in scripture that says the tax collector gave up his job or that he never sinned again.

Ephesians 3:1-5
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles —
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
NKJV

 

[Prentis]

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,

There is only one gospel.

Phil. 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

Ephesians 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel
The gentiles become one with the Jews, by the same gospel.

The same Gospel was hidden from all. Even the 12, after spending three years with Jesus, were asking 'when will the kingdom be restored'. Man, in his natural mind, does not understand it, thus it is hidden. There is only one gospel, the same was preached by Jesus, Peter, and Paul.

 

[RichardBurger]

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,

There is only one gospel.

Phil. 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

Ephesians 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel
The gentiles become one with the Jews, by the same gospel.

The same Gospel was hidden from all. Even the 12, after spending three years with Jesus, were asking 'when will the kingdom be restored'. Man, in his natural mind, does not understand it, thus it is hidden. There is only one gospel, the same was preached by Jesus, Peter, and Paul.

But I disagree; the gospel taught by the 12 was that Jesus was their Messiah and king and they, the Jews, had Him killed. They were to accept Him as their Messiah and King so that He would come back and set up the promised Kingdom. They failed to do that because of the unbelief of the Jews. That is clearly supported by the scriptures. Read them and see.

That is what Peter taught in the first chapters of Acts. No where in Peter's teaching was faith in the shed blood given as needed for salvation. His preaching was for the Jews only. Again if anyone disagree with that statement then show the scriptures in Acts that support the idea.

Failure for a person to see this means it is still hidden from their eyes. IMHO what many are teaching is a self-righteous gospel of works that they say have to be accomplished so that God will owe them salvation. IMHO, they want to go back to works and according to Paul those that do that have fallen from grace.

IMHO, I think you have failed to persevere in the faith and have turned away to a self-righteous gospel that will not save anyone today. Sinful flesh can not make itself perfect (Gal. 3:3).

Paul spent a lot of his writings exhorting the Galatians “”not”” go back under the law because there were believing Jews telling them that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses and IMHO that is what I see you doing.

 

[revturmoil]

The most moving experience I've ever had about the power of the cross is the Catholic rendition of "the Stations of the Cross."

 

[Prentis]

It's not about going back to the flesh. We must put not trust in the flesh and have it be crucified.

It's about having faith in Christ, that he is indeed powerful enough to overcome sin... In this life! All things are possible with God.

God has made A way, not 2 or 3 or 4. That way is through Christ.

 

[RichardBurger]

It's not about going back to the flesh. We must put not trust in the flesh and have it be crucified.


It's about having faith in Christ, that he is indeed powerful enough to overcome sin... In this life! All things are possible with God.

God has made A way, not 2 or 3 or 4. That way is through Christ.

What you are teaching is that your flesh overcomes sin by what it does. Let me re-word your sentance "It's about having faith in Christ, that he is indeed powerful enough to overcome sin... In this life! All things are possible with God.

It's about our having faith in Christ, that he has saved us while we still live in sinful flesh that still sins. It is our faith in Jesus' work on the cross that saves us, not our works of trying to be sinless. The power of the cross saves sinners, not those that think they have become perfect.

When a person realizes that they are sinful and need Jesus' work on the cross and places his/her faith, trust, confidence in Jesus' shed blood they are made a child of God at that moiment and they are kept by that power.

If you read your Bible you will find several gospels (good news) in the scriptures. The gospel "the kingdom at hand" that Jesus and the 12 preached is not for this age since it has been put on hold. The gospel for this age is Paul's gospel of God' grace. If you can't separate these two gospels then you will try to be saved by a blended gospel of works + grace and that will not get anyone into heaven. You can place your faith in a blended gospel it if you wish but I will not.

The Bible does not teach the "one gospel" theory, only theologians teach it. The Bible does not use the phrase "one gospel." only theologians use it. The Bible does not teach that God has revealed the same gospel message for all the dispensations of time. Rather, it is just the reverse. God has revealed different messages of "good news" to mankind during certain periods of time, as He has willed. These messages are not to be mixed up or to be constituted as parts of one gospel. They were taken at face value at the time they were revealed.

The Scofield note on page 1343 could have been made much clearer and easier to understand. It is too general in its language. But it still reflects the teaching that there is only one gospel, one way of salvation, and that it is by grace through faith in all dispensations. Those who believe this way really preach a homogenized gospel that is made up of some truth from the Kingdom of Heaven Gospel and some truth from the Grace Gospel of the Apostle Paul. This mixing of two gospels also leaves out some vital truth related to each gospel. This is not good Bible teaching.


As to the doctrine of justification by faith, it sounds right but further examination proves that the conclusion is false. First, the doctrine of justification by faith is NOT the gospel message. Faith is a RESULT of the gospel or good news being believed by the individual as it is revealed by God. Justification is one of the works of God that takes place at the time of salvation. We don't tell people to be justified; we tell them that they must be saved. Second, faith is taking God at His Word, by believing what God has said. In the case of Abraham, Paul went back to Genesis 15:5-6, which says: "And He brought him forth abroad and said, Look now toward heaven and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and He said unto him, So shall thy seed be. [6] And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness." Verse 6 is unique because three words - "believed" "righteousness," and "counted" - are used here for the first time in the Old Testament. Abram believed (exercised faith) in what God told him, which is the contents of verse 5. Verse 5 does not contain the Gospel of the grace of God nor does it contain the Gospel of the Kingdom. Verse 5 is related to the Abrahamic Covenant which Paul called in Gal. 3:8, "the gospel unto Abraham."
In Galatians 1:6 there is "another gospel," a HETEROS gospel which is a gospel of a different kind. The Gospel of the Kingdom is what the Judaizers preached to the Galatian believers, not a "false gospel" that Acts 2 people use to identify "another gospel." The Gospel of the Kingdom is a gospel of a different kind.
In Galatians 1:7 you have "the gospel of Christ," which is another name for the Gospel of the grace of God; and in Gal. 3:8 the "gospel preached unto Abraham" is what Jehovah God told him in Genesis 12:3; 15:5-6. Besides these three gospels in Galatians, there is "the Everlasting Gospel" of Rev. 14:6.

 

[Jake]

Richard,
There is only one gospel, we do not have 3 or 4 different gospels, you are misinterpeting the entire Bible and it's purpose! God is not so confusing! He used different descriptions to define the same gospel. Much the same way, we use different names for God to describe Him, but He is the same God!

The gospel is about His coming upon the earth in flesh to bring His Kingdom, it's all about His Kingdom and how we get to to be a part of the revealing of His glory, and as a result of all of this and what Jesus has done, there is salvation!

People try to use their own minds to interpet the Bible, and we end up with how many different interpetations? 1,000's! The Bible tells us it interpets us, not the other way around, we are all to walk in the same Spirit and when we do that, we all get the same Truth because it is the Spirit doing the teaching, it is no longer man's interpetation, it is God's Truth.

There is only one gospel.

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard,
There is only one gospel, we do not have 3 or 4 different gospels, you are misinterpeting the entire Bible and it's purpose! God is not so confusing! He used different descriptions to define the same gospel. Much the same way, we use different names for God to describe Him, but He is the same God!

The gospel is about His coming upon the earth in flesh to bring His Kingdom, it's all about His Kingdom and how we get to to be a part of the revealing of His glory, and as a result of all of this and what Jesus has done, there is salvation!

People try to use their own minds to interpet the Bible, and we end up with how many different interpetations? 1,000's! The Bible tells us it interpets us, not the other way around, we are all to walk in the same Spirit and when we do that, we all get the same Truth because it is the Spirit doing the teaching, it is no longer man's interpetation, it is God's Truth.

There is only one gospel.

I still disagree with you.

And, I suppose, you don't use your own mind.

The scriptures do not say we, ubder grace, are a part of the Jewsish kingdom that will be setup on this earth except as Jewish Proselytes.

According to Paul our future is in the heavenlies.

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was from Jesus. The setting aside of Paul, by Jesus, and the formation of the "Body of Christ" marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the "Body of Christ" is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

Since God's new plan of salvation was not known until He (God) revealed it to Paul, the Body of Christ is ministering (making it known) to beings in heavenly places.

to the intent that """now""" the manifold wisdom of God might be ""made known by the Church"" TO THE principalities and powers in the heavenly places, Ephesians 3:10 (see also Eph 6:12 on next page)

The Body of Christ has, as its head, a Christ who has ascended above and therefore rules over heavenly places.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:10
The Body of Christ is fighting a war with beings in heavenly places.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12

Paul is also careful to make sure that we understand that our eternal destiny is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.

For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:20,21 -For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I Thessalonians 4:16-18
Note that Paul calls our bodies vile.

Notice that our comfort is not found in the return of Christ to establish an earthly kingdom, as it was/is for Israel. Our comfort is found in Christ catching us off this earth to reign with Him for all eternity in the heavenlies. Our eternal destiny and conversation is in heaven, not on the earth.

We should note one other important truth about all of this information about God's purpose being fulfilled in heaven. It was all kept secret in the mind and heart of God until it was revealed to, and through, the Apostle Paul.

 

[Prentis]

What you are teaching is that your flesh overcomes sin by what it does. Let me re-word your sentance "It's about having faith in Christ, that he is indeed powerful enough to overcome sin... In this life! All things are possible with God.

You set yourself up as the teachers of believers, and yet you don't even know that we have a new creation that is born in us? A new nature, Christ, by which we can overcome?

Christ was in the flesh and did not sin. Yet you claim that to be impossible for anyone but Christ. Christ was fully human, though you might accept that in word, you do not believe it in it's meaning. If Christ, fully human, can overcome sin while still in the flesh, then so can men. Not that men can do it, but God in them, as it was with Christ, because God dwelt in a man, and so overcame, so it is with us. By your teaching, you deny that Christ could of been sinless while being fully man. Paul, who's Gospel you claim to preach, did himself wish to his brothers in some of his letters that "the fullness of God may dwell in you". If the fulness of God dwells in someone fully man, that is just like Jesus. If a man, as Jesus, has the fulness of God dwelling in him, he can indeed walk like Christ. It is nothing of himself, but all of Christ who lives in him, and Christ receives all the glory.

You teach, and yet you don't even understand that Christ lives in us and we are to overcome as HE did. Unless he wasn't fully human... But He was!

 

[RichardBurger]

You set yourself up as the teachers of believers, and yet you don't even know that we have a new creation that is born in us? A new nature, Christ, by which we can overcome?

Christ was in the flesh and did not sin. Yet you claim that to be impossible for anyone but Christ. Christ was fully human, though you might accept that in word, you do not believe it in it's meaning. If Christ, fully human, can overcome sin while still in the flesh, then so can men. Not that men can do it, but God in them, as it was with Christ, because God dwelt in a man, and so overcame, so it is with us. By your teaching, you deny that Christ could of been sinless while being fully man. Paul, who's Gospel you claim to preach, did himself wish to his brothers in some of his letters that "the fullness of God may dwell in you". If the fulness of God dwells in someone fully man, that is just like Jesus. If a man, as Jesus, has the fulness of God dwelling in him, he can indeed walk like Christ. It is nothing of himself, but all of Christ who lives in him, and Christ receives all the glory.

You teach, and yet you don't even understand that Christ lives in us and we are to overcome as HE did. Unless he wasn't fully human... But He was!

This new nature is not perfection in the flesh. We are a new creation "in Christ," not our flesh. Can over come you say! Are you serious? It is faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross ""THAT HAS"" made us overcome (past tense), not our works in the flesh. Your idea that we are never saved unless we overcome by what we do is not what Paul taught. Your idea is "progessive salvation" a salvation that must be finished by the works of man.

I don't need you to tell me what I believe.

You said; "By your teaching, you deny that Christ could of been sinless while being fully man." --- I never said that. You are bearing false witness just as they did to Jesus. You are just trying to put words in my mouth that I never said and you are putting up smoke screens to cover up your works theology.

It should be obvious that your doctrine requires a person, by the person's effort, to save himself.

 

[Prentis]

A person does not save himself, no. But he does crucify the flesh by the Spirit so that Christ may live in him. Have you never heard 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling'?

You deny that man can be as Christ while living in the flesh, yet Christ came and took on flesh, fully, as we do. To deny that we can walk as he did while in the flesh is to deny either that Christ walked sinlessely (which I know you wouldn't do ) or to deny that he was fully man, and yet sinless. Christ calls us to be as he is. A learner cannot surpass his teacher (Christ, being perfect), but he can become as his teacher. (Yes, Jesus said that.)

You confuse perfection by the flesh and perfection while still living in the flesh. We are not perfected by the flesh, no, but by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh, all the while still living in a fleshly body. Thus by the new nature, we overcome the sin nature.

 

[Jake]

I still disagree with you.

And, I suppose, you don't use your own mind.

If you would apply the entire singular gospel to your theology, then you would already know those in Christ, now have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 2:16 For who has know the mind of the Lord that we may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

According to Paul our future is in the heavenlies.

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was from Jesus. The setting aside of Paul, by Jesus, and the formation of the "Body of Christ" marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the "Body of Christ" is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

You contradict yourself, Richard. First you tell us that our future is in the heavenlies, and then you quote a verse that says we are in the heavenlies already. Is it that because you have made up so much doctrine, you can not keep it straight?

The Bible tells us we are already in the heavenlies, if, we are in fact in Christ.

Richard, who is dead and who is alive in you?

I don't need you to tell me what I believe.

You've made it quit clear, you believe in about 5 different gospels.

 

[Prentis]

Yes, well said brother . Walking with Lord and by the Spirit starts now, not when we die. Eternal life is to know the Father and his Son (knowing meaning to be in communion with), not to die with the belief that he will take you there THEN.

We are to walk with the Lord now, to overcome now. Otherwise God is not powerful enough to overcome the flesh, all he can do is wait till it dies so the Spirit can finally reign. That's a terrible thing to say... God is king over all things, and with him ALL things are possible.

If we are not to be like Christ while still in the flesh, why then did Christ have to come in the flesh?

 

[RichardBurger]

A person does not save himself, no. But he does crucify the flesh by the Spirit so that Christ may live in him. Have you never heard 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling'?

You deny that man can be as Christ while living in the flesh, yet Christ came and took on flesh, fully, as we do. To deny that we can walk as he did while in the flesh is to deny either that Christ walked sinlessely (which I know you wouldn't do ) or to deny that he was fully man, and yet sinless. Christ calls us to be as he is. A learner cannot surpass his teacher (Christ, being perfect), but he can become as his teacher. (Yes, Jesus said that.)

You confuse perfection by the flesh and perfection while still living in the flesh. We are not perfected by the flesh, no, but by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh, all the while still living in a fleshly body. Thus by the new nature, we overcome the sin nature.

When did this tread become a discussion about Christ taking on flesh? No one that I know of who claims to be a child of God doubts that Jesus came in the flesh.

Yes I do deny that man can become sinless in the flesh. The only way we are like Christ is "in Christ." Sinful flesh can never be made perfect. Have you refused to read Gall. 3, Paul asked the Gal. a question, "having begun in the spirit are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

I do not believe we are made perfect in the flesh by the actions of the flesh. We are placed "in Christ" by an action of the Holy Spirit and are perfect only "in Christ."

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

 

[RichardBurger]

I still disagree with you.

And, I suppose, you don't use your own mind.

If you would apply the entire singular gospel to your theology, then you would already know those in Christ, now have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 2:16 For who has know the mind of the Lord that we may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

*****And if you would read the scriptures I give perhaps your eyes would be opened.

According to Paul our future is in the heavenlies.

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was from Jesus. The setting aside of Paul, by Jesus, and the formation of the "Body of Christ" marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the "Body of Christ" is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

You contradict yourself, Richard. First you tell us that our future is in the heavenlies, and then you quote a verse that says we are in the heavenlies already. Is it that because you have made up so much doctrine, you can not keep it straight?

****** This tells me that what I wrote went over your head and yet it gave the scriptures that support it. Are you so out of touch with reality that you can't see that it is our spirit that is in heaven. Haven't you read that flesh and blood will never enter heaven. Yet some claim that their flesh insperfect in Christ and should go to heaven. I can't buy that.

The Bible tells us we are already in the heavenlies, if, we are in fact in Christ.

Richard, who is dead and who is alive in you?

********My flesh is dead, buried with Christ. My Spirit is alive "in Christ" and in heaven. I have said no contradiction. You don't have a clue as to what it means when it is said "in Christ."

You've made it quit clear, you believe in about 5 different gospels.

******* I think my writting was quite clear that there was more than one gospel. We do not have the same destiny as the Jews and as such we are saved under a gospel that was given to Paul, not the 12 and that there are certainly more than one gospel.

Romans 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
NKJV

Colossians 2:11-14
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, --- Circumcision = a cuting away of the flesh

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
NKJV

 

[Prentis]

Yes I do deny that man can become sinless in the flesh.

Then it is impossible that Christ was fully man, with a body of flesh as we do.

We are not perfected by the flesh, but by the Spirit, while still living in a body of flesh. Just like Christ!

You deny that there is NO temptation that cannot be overcome, as the Bible says.

Romans 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
NKJV

Colossians 2:11-14
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
NKJV

Do you not know that we HAVE died with Christ? Therefore we have already been freed from sin.

Christ overcame in this life, though he was in a body just like ours. He had made the same life available to us.

Otherwise Paul wouldn't say 'may the fulness of God dwell in you', as it says it did in Christ.