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The Power of the Cross

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by RichardBurger, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I am sorry but I have moved on. This thread is getting nowhere. My new tread is "The In Christ Doctrine" since most don't seem to have a clue about it.
     
  2. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Ok, well may God bless you, Richard! :)

    And see you on the other thread... :)
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    It was said: "It should be obvious that your doctrine requires a person, by the person's effort, to save himself."

    2 Corinthians 5:14 "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
    15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
    16 ¶Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    Question 1: What does that mean, "the love of Christ contraineth us"?

    Question 2: What are we being told to do as a result of that love of Christ constraining us when it says, "that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves"?

    Question 3: What is that "new creature" of verse 17, what old things have passed away, and what are the "all things" that are "become new"?

    It is my take on this that Paul is telling us that the thing which holds us or constrains us or compels us into the pattern where we do not live for ourselves but walk as Christ walked is "the love of Christ". Yet many say that the Holy Spirit is what does that for us. But understand this, we follow the holy spirit and that for the same reason, the love we ourselves have in our hearts for God and his Son. It does not magically make us want to do it. The choice is ours to love and to cultivate that love which compels us. This is our faith that began working by love. Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

    That Paul there told us it is the love of Christ which does that for us harmonizes with what Jesus also told us: John 14:21a "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: ..."

    Also: John 14:24a "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: ..."

    God is looking for us to be motivated by love to willingly keep his commandments from our hearts. This whole thing is about writing the laws of God in our hearts where our motivation comes from within by a solid grasp and appreciation for the commandments of God.

    Exodus 20:6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

    Jesus did not mince his words. He placed responsibility upon us when he said, John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

    Whose responsibility does James say it is: James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James said that a man must "keep himself unspotted from the world."

    1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

    1 John 3:22 "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight."

    1 John 5:2 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

    Was James a liar: James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

    Some need to rethink their teaching because what they teach makes James out to be a liar.

    James is not a liar. James understands what those who say they cannot keep from sin do not understand.

    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
     
  4. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey Richard...I went back to Acts, just to have a look see! I agree with others that there is only one gospel...Jesus, when He died and the curtain tore, broke down all barriers between Jew or Gentile...it all comes down to Jesus, and if a man is to come to God, he has to come through Jesus.

    I think, in Acts, that what Peter was really trying to deal with, is that staunch belief that Jews were 'better' than Gentiles, that they had a direct line to God, just because they were Jews. To really hear the gospel news, they had to know who Jesus was. They had to know who they had crucified, and they had to (like us all), repent. Repentance is a necessary step to salvation...Jesus offers that free gift of grace to all who repent, no matter their race...

    And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” (Acts 2:38-39 ESV)

    Here is the gospel message! He doesn't say the word 'blood', but in the context, it really isn't necessary. He had just walked them through who Jesus was...who they had crucified. You didn't need to tell men in those days that shed blood came with a crucifixion! The point was Jesus....Jesus was Lord...He had died, rose again and in Him we have forgiveness of sins! With repentance we receive salvation (forgiveness of sins) and the promised Holy Spirit.

    Richard, that's about as gospel message as it gets! Peter spends so much time in Acts going back over all the Pentateuch and David because He is desperately trying to get his Jewish brethren to understand that Jesus was the Messiah. He was not 'a new religion' to replace the promises of God. He was the promises of God! Jesus was the ultimate fulfilment these people had been longing for for centuries, and they had missed Him...killed Him! Peter was in 'wake up people' mode...tying all the old scriptures together to show how they pointed directly to Jesus!

    But there is only one gospel message...that of Christ crucified. If anyone, Jew or Gentile, would reach the Father, we must come to Him through repentance and through that wondrous gift of grace obtained on the cross!
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Then you didn't really read Acts. Look again and show a scripture when Peter said we are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. See if Stephen said we are saved by the blood of Jesus. If you can't find any then I am right and you are wrong.

    Peter and Stephen were only trying to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King, nothing else.

    Your idea that we must ASSUME that they believed the shed blood covered their sins is man's assumption that adds to the scriptures for man's purpose. If God had wanted Peter to preach salvation through faith in Jesus' shed blood He would have said so in the words of Peter, but He didn't and for man to say He did is not of God.

    There was a gospel of the kingdom ( the covenant promise of God to Abraham) that Jesus came to fulfill but the Jews rejected it. So now there is a new gospel preached by Paul, a gospel that was hidden in God and revealed to Paul. Even though the scriptures say it was hidden in God men reject God's words and again want to assume that it wasn't. The covenant gospel of the kingdom has faded away and replaced by the gospel of God's grace. To blend the two is to reject the gospel of grace.
     
  6. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    The shed blood is an image, as for those who were saved out of Egypt by the blood of the lamb.

    2 Peter 1:9
    For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

    The blood cleanses us of our OLD sins. We must then come to the cross, and die with Christ, that we might live for the will of God, and not our own.

    [sup]14[/sup] For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; [sup]15[/sup] and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. (2 Cor. 5)

    Then we receive ressurection life, grace to be as he is.

    Romans 5:2
    through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
     
  7. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    Of course you know that is speaking of Jesus.

    What does that verse say "all" must do if Jesus is to be "the author of eternal salvation unto all them"?

    There has never been two different gospels. The blood of Christ can be correctly said to save us but that only only because it made possible the opening of the door of salvation to us. That view of the blood of Christ is the only way it does not conflict with what else is written concerning how we obtain salvation.

    God has not changed. He is the same today as yesterday and as he will be tomorrow. The gospel we have is the gospel he set in motion at Genesis 3:15.
     
    Prentis likes this.
  8. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Ah...you can say I didn't read it, and that I missed the point and am wrong all you want. It doesn't change the fact it WAS the gospel message that Peter, and Stephen and all 12 preached. You are stubbornly missing that because you are so determined to have your 'secret hidden gospel' just for Paul...a different message for Jews and Gentiles. Are you perhaps missing the fact that the first Christians were Jews? That the church began with Jews?
    What is the message of salvation? Does it need to have the words 'split blood' in there for it 'to work?'
    The message of salvation: "Repent"..."Turn to Jesus"..."Be forgiven of sins, through his death and ressurection"...."Receive the Holy Spirit"..."Gain eternal life"
    Does it need to have the word 'blood' in there? Nope. The point is that Jesus died to take on our sins, and that He rose again, promising that we who are in Him will too. It's His death that matters...His sacrifice. Yes His spilt blood is a precious thing...it's a part of sacrifice, shed blood. But look through some of the more obvious messages of the gospel in Paul's books. The don't always mention "shed blood" either. Because the point is this: Jesus died for us, and now He lives for us...
    This is what was taught to Jews and Gentiles alike...why? Because Jesus is the only way...for anyone. Anyone preaching any differently is like Harold Camping...reading into scripture 'secrets that only they know'.
    The Jews were an important tool in bringing Jesus to this world. It is important for us to know their history...or to be precise, how God interacted with His 'chosen people' throughout history. Our Bible looses much of it's meaning if it just started at Matthew. Likewise, Acts is important, it deals with the same OT people, and how Peter united everything that happened in history to the one amazing event...Jesus' death and resurrection. And Peter did preach that...not just who Jesus was...the Messiah, but that He was now alive and well, seated beside the Father. The resurrection is such a huge part of the gospel. And the Jews who became Christians knew that...they had hope, and believed, they received the Holy Spirit. This IS the gospel. You can't just say "see, the word blood never appeared, so you're wrong!" Well, the word Trinity never appears in scripture either, yet quite clearly it teaches that ours is a triune God. You so desperately want that word 'blood' to appear, that you are missing the very point of Peter's speech. He preaches the gospel loud and proud! And thousands came to Jesus that day!
     
  9. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Prentis gave the key to you in his last post #86 if you will only think about what he said.

    Many slightly miss the import of what Paul said: Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me"

    To extract the meaning of what Paul there said, we need to let the scriptures unlock the scriptures instead of risking adding our own interpretation to them. We do that by first breaking up what he said into questions that we can let the scriptures answer. The following is how that is done:

    What does it mean, "I am crucified with Christ"? The answer is given us at Galatians 5:24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

    Having turned this subject into something almost mystical many miss seeing how simple it really is.

    The flesh of man has a spirit of lawlessness about it that it inherited from Adams sin. That spirit expresses itself in terms of our pet affections and lusts (soulful desires).

    When we crucify our self together with Christ we disown that, which then frees us to commit totally to the affections and desires that are perfected in Christ. We take on Christ's spirit not magically but willingly by faith in the propriety of doing so.

    What then does it mean, "nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me"?

    Having disowned and died to ourselves we are now living completely to do the will of Christ, adopting to ourselves his affections as our own affections and his desires as our own desires.

    God has never taken our responsibiltiy to make choices and willing submit to being obedient from out of the equation. Our faith in Christ thus moves us to love as he loves and be fruitful as he is fruitful.

    If a branch boasts that it is attached to the vine then it shames the vine if it fails to bear fruit. Even in Romans 11 we see that responsibility falls upon the branch. Yet it is Christ living in us because we have adopted entirely his will and ways. And that is what God blesses us with spirit to help us do, at no time taking responsibility from off our shoulders to remain committed to this.
     
  10. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey Vengle...ah, was your last post to me, or Richard??
    If it was for me, I have no objection to anything you said! In fact, right on! Prentis and I butt heads on a few issues, but I don't think our 'new nature' in God is one of them!
     
  11. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    No Rach, my comment is actually just broadly referencing things Richard has said since posts 6 and 7.

    I confused you with Jake for a minute. LOL. But I think much along the line of Jake's post #34.

    I am mused that Richard cannot see that God's purpose and plan has never change from before the foundation of the world when just after Adam sinned and God did as Epesians 1:4-5 tells us.

    It leads me to think that he does not fully understand what God was demonstrating to the entire world by his use of the fleshly nation of Israel. And as well I get a sense that Richard believes that God has absolved us of all (or at least most) responsibility through the shed blood of Jesus.

    Perhaps he could elaborate on those points for me.
     
  12. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I have elaborated those points but you refuse to believe them. What does the words "hidden in God" Mean to you?

    If you wish to refuse the gospel of grace taught by Paul then do so, it is your life. But as for me I see that God has made a way to call a sinner in the flesh righteous "in Christ" and that is what mankind needs. Man's attempts to make him/her self righteous will lead them to hell.
     
  13. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    'hidden in God' is no new concept, RichardBurger, Solomon knew of it, and he said it was 'God's pleasure to hide a matter, and the pleasure of kings to find it out'. The saints are told they will rule and reign with Christ if they overcome.

    There are things hidden in God that Christ reveals to us. To Paul, he revealed mysteries for the sake of his calling. But Paul preached the same gospel, that by the grace of God, freely given to us if we repent, we are now made able to stand, that is in righteousness, not of our own power, but of God's.

    It is not man's attempt, but God's work of grace in man. Man may repent, and thus be righteous for being honest and recognizing his faults. To have the righteousness of Christ, man must submit to God, and then God will empower him, as he did with Paul, and the rest of the saints.
     
  14. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Psalms 15:1 ¶<<A Psalm of David.>> LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
    2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
    3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
    4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
    5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

    Hopefully we all can agree that the above yet holds 100% true.

    That is the responsibility of our faith. We see that when a man had a difficult time abiding it in the Corinthian congregation Paul concurred that the proper thing was to turn such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. 1 Corinthians 5:5

    This turning this man over for the destruction of the flesh is viewed by many as about trying to save this willful sinner. It is not. What it is, is an example to us as to our responsibility to keep the flesh of willful sinners out of the body of Christ. Because the Corinthian church had not done that yet, Paul warned them, 1 Corinthians 5:6 "Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" Paul's zeal was to keep corruption out of the body of Christ he was appointed to care for.

    Richard, I used to cite that section and highlight it to people that it was about God desiring to save that willful sinner. I am amazed today that I could ever have seen it that way. But I recall so well that my belief was so firm that this was God trying to save that sinner that I really had difficulty for a long time seeing that my understanding of what was said there was wrong. Flat out wrong. Such is the power of preconcieved belief. That wrong belief had developed in me because I heard someone else relate it that way and I believed. Belief can help you but it can also blind you.

    Richard, the following has not changed with God:

    Psalms 11:5 "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

    Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

    The unconditional love theology is false Richard. God's love never violates justice and that teaching would violate justice.
     
  15. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Romans 5:1-11 -Faith Triumphs in Trouble
    1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
    4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
    5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

    Christ in Our Place

    6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
    8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
    10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
    11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
    NKJV

    Romans 4:9-15 -Abraham Justified Before Circumcision

    9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
    10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
    11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
    12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

    The Promise Granted Through Faith

    13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    NOTE: 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

    15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
    NKJV

    Verse 14 Paul said that if a person seeks to be save by his works then he has fallen from grace.

    Faith + nothing
     
  16. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    I agree! The whole Bible tells the story of the world waiting for Jesus! One God, one man and most definitely, one way!
     
  17. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    So then Richard, are you saying that we can be saved and have bad works while we claim that we are in Christ, after having confessed faith?

    Would that not be different than being saved with no works, like the unborn child having yet done nothing good or bad? But I strongly assert that it is not possible for a man to have no works good or bad. And one either has good works else they have bad works.

    I would agree that for some all that God expects is that they commit no sin that incurs death (1 John 5:16-17)

    John is there speaking of brothers in Christ. That yet constitutes obedience. We are not saying that all have to seek special deeds of work to qualify. In fact there is a sin of presumptuousness where the one takes to himself to do work that the holy spirit has not appointed to him. We are saying that one has to practice obedience and one definitely must avoid serious sins. Certainly one could repent even most serious sins but one who sincerely repents does not keep crawling back into the same mud hole. God is not one to mocked.

    I mean seriously, when it comes down to having to choose to believe James or you, who do you suppose it would be wise for me to side with?

    James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
     
  18. Jake

    Jake New Member

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    These are the scariest words I have seen written together - ever! This is not what the Bible is telling us, there will be many, many believers who hear Jesus' words, and think the sermon on the mount was the most excellent sermon they've ever heard - yet, they will be cast away, because that is all they did, they read the Bible and ignored all of the warnings, ignored the writings of James that tell us faith w/out works is dead, and will have no clue what it means by being partakers of His divine nature.

    Yes, we must have faith in Christ, but this leads to faithfulness on our part, we can not simply believe in Him, we must be faithful in Him, what this OP is teaching is being UNfaithful in Him by doing nothing.

    What the OP is teaching is that there is no diligence on our part.
    Galatians 6:9 "And let us not grow weary of doing good; for in due season we will reap: IF we do not give up"

    The Bible is clear, we are to turn away from sin, we can only serve one master, we can not have it both ways, the OP is teaching we can have it both ways, which is absolutely contrary to what the Bible teaches.

    Obedience is taught over and over again, God teaches us to obey Him by painful convictions if we do not. We are called to suffer and in our suffering we mature IF we remain in Him, read all of John 15. The OP disregards suffering and in so many words claims it all to be in vain!

    Sadly, this is so true for many people, they read the Bible, they say the "prayer of salvation" and because some preacher told them they were saved, that is all they do, yet, the Bible tells us to obey and take action.
     
  19. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Sadly, this christianity that seeks to make decisions rather than disciples is rampant today.

    It offers a scheme by which one may be safe, while Christ offers a way in which the only safety is to remain in him.

    Faith is not just to believe, the word has the same root word as 'faithfulness', and true faith requires that one abides, if he is to walk by that faith.
     
  20. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.
    The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me.

    One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed.

    The study:

    Was James confused?

    Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?
    James 2:20-21
    20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
    (NKJ)

    FACT! No, he was not!  ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

     
    Genesis 15:4-6
    4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
    5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
    6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
    (NKJ)

    FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.  There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.  It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.  It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

     
    James writes:
    22  You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
    23  And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
    24 [sup] [/sup]You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

    FACT!

    What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

    In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.

    Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

    1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
    2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
    3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
    4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
    5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
    6. The word “cross” is not found
    7. The word “reconciled” is not found
    8. The word “sanctified” is not found
    9. The word “saved” is not found
    10. The words “in Christ” are not found
    11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

    Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
    1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
    2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
    3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
    4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

    David Celebrates the Same Truth
    5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
    6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
    7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
    NKJV
     
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