Timing of the abomination of desolation

[Davy]

So are you saying that the city of Jerusalem was only symbolically destroyed by physically destroying the temple of their God? Daniel 9 does say "the city and the sanctuary." But Jesus seemed to only be talking about the temple.

Don't be deceived. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy involves a STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE in Jerusalem for the END of this world.

That means the old covenant with the daily sacrifices and temple worship will be ESTABLISHED IN JERUSALEM again by the Jews at the end.

And Daniel 11 with the "vile person" making a "league" with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem will help establish all that at the end of this world. That... is the time Jesus was showing the "abomination of desolation" will be for.

LEAKED: Plans For Third Temple in Jerusalem

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Don't be deceived. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy involves a STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE in Jerusalem for the END of this world.

That means the old covenant with the daily sacrifices and temple worship will be ESTABLISHED IN JERUSALEM again by the Jews at the end.

And Daniel 11 with the "vile person" making a "league" with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem will help establish all that at the end of this world. That... is the time Jesus was showing the "abomination of desolation" will be for.

LEAKED: Plans For Third Temple in Jerusalem

Davy, have you ever seen that confirmed in the Book of Revelation? I don't recall it. I have seen it spoken of in the Old Testament, but are those prophets talking about the new temple that Herod had built after the old one from Solomon had been destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar II, and Herod's was destroyed in 70 AD? Jesus didn't speak of a third.

 

[Keraz]

Davy, have you ever seen that confirmed in the Book of Revelation? I don't recall it. I have seen it spoken of in the Old Testament, but are those prophets talking about the new temple that Herod had built after the old one from Solomon had been destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar II, and Herod's was destroyed in 70 AD? Jesus didn't speak of a third.

Revelation 11:1 proves that there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem during the end times.
Plus the fact of there being no Temple for Eternity, Revelation 21:22, shows there will be a Temple during the Millennium, as Zechariah 14:16-21 says. Jesus Returns to it and reigns from it.

That means the old covenant with the daily sacrifices and temple worship will be ESTABLISHED IN JERUSALEM again by the Jews at the end.

Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 40-46, and many other Prophesies plainly say that a new Temple will be built and worshipped in by the People of God. God wanted a Temple before and He does not change.

Thinking that the Jews have any role to play during the end times, is quite wrong and contradicts many prophesies.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So are you saying that the city of Jerusalem was only symbolically destroyed by physically destroying the temple of their God? Daniel 9 does say "the city and the sanctuary." But Jesus seemed to only be talking about the temple.

No, Jerusalem was partially destroyed in 70 AD, and more fully destroyed in 135 AD. The point is, Jesus said Jerusalem would be desolated in his generation, which had to be the 70 AD conquest of the city under General Titus. The prophecy in Dan 9 indicated that both the city and the sanctuary would be desolated, until the desolator himself comes to his end. That is similar to what Jesus said. Israel's desolation, or great tribulation, would continue until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled.

The fact Jerusalem was defeated and destroyed in 70 AD did not mean it would not survive as a city. It meant that it would suffer destruction, with the Jews being sent away into exile. This would constitute a great punishment upon the Jewish People, as a whole, until the end of the age.

The punishment included the annihilation of the temple, ie "every stone," because this symbolized, graphically, the termination of the covenant between God and Israel under the Law. It was not, however, the end of God's covenant with Abraham, on behalf of Israel, which is everlasting. And so, Jerusalem was destroyed, but not annihilated, while the temple was completely annihilated for all time, since Christianity has now replaced the covenant of Law.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Israel's desolation, or great tribulation, would continue until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled.

I don't see the Great Tribulation playing a part in Israel's desolation, but for their salvation. Revelation 12 and 13, and Romans 11

 

[Davy]

Davy, have you ever seen that confirmed in the Book of Revelation? I don't recall it. I have seen it spoken of in the Old Testament, but are those prophets talking about the new temple that Herod had built after the old one from Solomon had been destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar II, and Herod's was destroyed in 70 AD? Jesus didn't speak of a third.

Lord Jesus had no need to point specifically to another standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end. Why? Because the Daniel "abomination of desolation" prophecy requires it. Only those who do NOT understand the "abomination of desolation" prophecy don't understand about that temple requirement.

Rev 11:1-2
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, "Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV


And New Testament Scripture about another temple in Jerusalem does not have to be in the Book of Revelation either, so I wish you guys would get off that kick.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

That "temple of God" is about another Jewish temple for the end. The orthodox Jew's plans for it in Jerusalem is all over their news sites, so it's not a topic easily missed.

Why do the orthodox unbelieving Jews plan to build a new temple?

1. because the orthodox Jews today are STILL awaiting Messiah's coming. They don't believe Jesus of Nazareth was The Messiah. Thus they believe they are STILL under the old covenant.

2. Old covenant worship required a standing temple and animal sacrifices. Some of the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have for a long time now been sacrificing lambs on the passover, on a hill overlooking the temple mount (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful).

3. "the temple of God" in those above 2 Scriptures is NOT about the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. Both of those above Scriptures reveal that "temple of God" being corrupted by false ones. In the Revelation 11:1-2 example, the outer court of the temple and city is given for the Gentiles to 'tread' for 42 months, the same time of the dragon's 42 months reign per Revelation 13. In the 2 Thessalonians 2 example, it is the coming false-Messiah sitting in that "temple of God" proclaiming himself as God, that spiritually desolates it.

4. Not since the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple (and thus Herod's mods) in 70 A.D. has there been a standing Jewish temple on the Temple Mount with an 'outer court' for the Gentiles. Thus Revelation 11:1-2 is directly referring to a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end.

5. Revelation 11:1-2 with that temple of God, and the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the city, is linked in that Chapter with the appearance of God's two witnesses at the END of this world, within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Jesus is shown having returned on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. That places that "temple of God" in the timing of the END, just prior to Jesus' future return to this earth.

Thus the Bible witnesses that another Jewish temple will be built in Jerusalem for the end of this world is plentiful. Here is still another...

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

The BRANCH = Messiah
Jesus Christ = Messiah

Problem with the orthodox Jews though, they do not believe Messiah has come yet. They rejected Lord Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah.

Those orthodox Jews are well FAMILIAR with this Zechariah 6:12-13 prophecy that when Messiah (The BRANCH) comes, he will build the temple. Thus they are EXPECTING this to be fulfilled when their Messiah they are waiting for today will come.

The Zechariah 6:13 verse with "he shall be a priest upon his throne" is also a major pointer to Jesus Christ as that BRANCH, because NO FLESH MAN in Jerusalem has EVER been BOTH a priest, and a king, sitting upon a throne. But Lord Jesus is BOTH, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (Revelation 19:16).

Those in Christ Jesus are NOT to join with those orthodox unbelieving Jews, especially regarding their plans for rebuilding another temple in Jerusalem. The main reason is because Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned His servants about the first supernatural one coming will be a fake Messiah (Matthew 24:23-26; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 13:11 forward; Revelation 17). Jesus returns after... the working of that fake-Christ, to destroy him, like Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Rev 11:1-2
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, "Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

Could be, but I see no sign of a temple being built yet. Just rumors

 

[Davy]

Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 40-46, and many other Prophesies plainly say that a new Temple will be built and worshipped in by the People of God. God wanted a Temple before and He does not change.

Thinking that the Jews have any role to play during the end times, is quite wrong and contradicts many prophesies.

That is where you and I strongly disagree!

My Bible reveals there WILL BE yet a third temple built in Jerusalem for the very end of this world just prior to Christ's future return. That is actually what that "temple of God" verse in Revelation 11:1-2 you quoted is about! So how deceived can you be?

And since that Revelation 11 Chapter reveals Jesus' future return with all the kingdoms of this world becoming His and The Father's, and that is linked with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, it is thus a no brainer to understand that "temple of God" is being shown existing within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing! It's so easy!

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 also reveals another 3rd Jewish temple standing in Jerusalem for the coming "man of sin" to sit in and play GOD at the end of this present world. And 2 Thessalonians 2:8 reveals Christ's future coming to destroy that false one.


Apparently you don't understand the following Scripture timing with the 3 Woe periods, each one tied to one of the last 3 Trumpets:

1st Woe - 5th Trumpet = Revelation 8:11 to Revelation 9:12.

2nd Woe period - 6th Trumpet = Revelation 9:12 to Revelation 11:14.

3rd Woe - 7th Trumpet = Revelation 11:14-19, it's all over with Christ having returned.

(The Revelation 10 Chapter is parenthetical, like a break, or rest in order to impart some specific detail, like the fact that when the 7th Trumpet (or angel) sounds, it's all over.)

So all it takes is a minimum of brain power to understand that since Jesus is shown having returned on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, then it must mean the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period has to be the "great tribulation" timing just prior to Jesus' coming.

 

[Davy]

Could be, but I see no sign of a temple being built yet. Just rumors

The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have been gathering materials and making the temple artifacts of worship for years now. It's been at least a decade since the Temple Mount Faithful tried to enter the Temple Mount and set the cornerstone in place. So yeah, they've had the cornerstone for the new temple cut for quite a while now.

Bible prophecy reveals it will happen, so it's just a matter of keep looking for it.

Another point of interest to keep in mind is the ark of the covenant. That's another requirement of temple worship. It was lost in the days of Jeremiah the prophet, but notice the orthodox Jews (and scientists) are still looking for it. It's actually shown in Heaven per Revelation 11:19, no longer here on earth. But the false Jews will come up with one just the same, when it is time to rebuild their next temple in prep for the coming false-Messiah.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't see the Great Tribulation playing a part in Israel's desolation, but for their salvation. Revelation 12 and 13, and Romans 11

Yes, that is the current view among futurists--at least among the rank and file. All of these Dispensationalist prophecy books all read the same way, and are hardly validated by any deep scholarship, except for those like Dwight Pentecost and John Walwoord, whose aim it was to establish the eschatology of Dispensationalism itself.

In reality, a simple look at how Jesus used the term "Great Tribulation" will tell you that these have it completely wrong. And I can't make a dent in their shield, because they own the numbers. And there's power in the masses.

I can't tell you how many times I've shared the following passage, and how little I get critical feedback that even remotely disproves my position....

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Just an honest view of how Jesus used the words "great distress" here will tell you that it began in 70 AD and continues all the way through NT history until the end. That is, the "great distress" is the Jewish Diaspora.

Now, because Jesus mentioned that Christians would suffer persecution in the same Discourse Dispensationalists automatically think that this no longer has to do with Israel and applies to the endtimes--not to the Jewish People. However, Jesus is saying these things apply directly to his own Disciples while still under the Old Testament. That means he is still speaking to Jews.

Jesus was speaking to those who were becoming Jewish Christians in the context of what would happen to their nation. Jesus, acting as a prophet, and not just Messiah, prophesied that they would be marginalized by their fellow countrymen, and would suffer the same national downfall that all the Jewish People would suffer when Rome comes and destroys Jerusalem. And he was telling them that being righteous disciples of his, they were not the targets of this judgment, and that they should flee when the desolating sacrilege appears on the horizon.

And so I believe this "desolating sacrilege" was the pagan army of Romans (66-70 AD), gathering like a storm cloud, warning Jewish believers to head for the hills. And it becomes a model from Christians in any nation that their own people will persecute them, and that the pagan world, as a whole, will reject them. They should steer clear of God's judgment coming against fallen Christian nations when the time comes.

The Great Tribulation, also translated as "great distress" is mentioned in all 3 synoptic Gospels, such that the terms are really synonymous. Unfortunately, Dispensationalists have made the Olivet Discourse about universal Christianity and not about Jewish Christianity, even though he was still speaking in the OT era.

And so, they think this is an Address for a future time, specifically in the endtimes, that had to do with Antichrist, who they think is an AoD, persecuting the Church in all nations. In other words, the "Great Tribulation" is the rule of Antichrist, for either 7 years or 3.5 years, depending on your view of it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In any discussion about Israel and the Jew in which it is believed that they are "chosen", and that God has a special plan for them, the first and essential question which must then be asked and answered is: How does God identify them? What are the identification criteria that He uses?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. Somethine else

What would you say?

Ethnicity is defined, generally, as the offspring of a particular family that becomes a large people group characterized by a particular culture, often including a nationality. So yes, it is genetically based.

When God promised Abraham a national posterity, as well as a larger international posterity, he was speaking of ethnicities as so defined. The national posterity initially promised involved Abraham's literal offspring.

His inheritance of nations were a spiritual inheritance, determined by a common faith or religion. And so, genetic distinctions alone did not determine who would be in the universal Church. But it certainly needed to be used to determine distinctions between nations and people groups, in order to fulfill this prophecy.

Paul is often quoted as saying race has nothing to do with becoming God's People. And that's certainly true. Although to fulfill the prophecy, many nations must be involved, it is not nationality and ethnicity itself that qualifies one to embrace Salvation. God is simply promising that some in each of these nations will, in fact, embrace Christian Salvation.

In other words, nationality and ethnicity do not yield Salvation. Religion does. But God has promised that religion will be effectively included in all of these nations in order to provide a full posterity to Abraham, father of the children of faith.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Exactly what the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is not a mystery like you are trying to assume. I've heard all the 'stories' Preterism and Historicism makes up to try and supplant that event of Daniel 11:31, like the Romans holding sacrifices in the temple court, and even the Roman eagle symbol being said to be the idol. Nah, all that's ignorance and flat DENIAL of what Antiochus IV did according the Jewish historian Josephus. I've also seen those denials with staying away from covering the Daniel 11 Chapter which best describes... what the "abomination of desolation" event is.

Yes, I've heard all those too, and there may or may not be truth in them. However, you seem to have missed the point I'm making, that you're mixing up the AoD of Antiochus 4 with the AoD of the Roman Army. These are 2 distinct AoDs, as can plainly be seen. Most people recognize the AoD of Antiochus 4 in Dan 8 and 11-12. However, the AoD of Dan 9 is more controversial, some thinking, like me, that it is the Roman Army, and others thinking that it is the Antichrist.

But I'm saying that your definition of the AoD is based on what the AoD of Antiochus 4 did, and not based on what the AoD of Dan 9 says it does! Antiochus 4 desolated the Jewish people and was in effect a sacrilegious abomination in the vicinity of God's temple. Furthermore, he set up an idol in the temple and offered sacrilegious offerings there.

But no such thing is said about the AoD in Dan 9! There, the presumption is that the people of a ruler, ie an army, will come and destroy God's temple and the holy city of Jerusalem. This is how Dan 9 defines the AoD, not by offering sacrilegious sacrifices in the temple nor by setting up idols in the temple. It is defined as an AoD simply by the act of desolating the Jewish People in Jerusalem and by destroying the temple.

So all those people who try to explain the AoD in the time of 70 AD try to fit Antiochus' version of an AoD into that time period, when no such thing is needed. Whether it was Caligula trying to set up an idol in the temple, or Romans worshiping eagles, these desecrating objects are not required to satisfy the definition of an AoD in Dan 9! The only thing that is required is that a desolating Army comes in to destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

That is how Dan 9 defines this particular AoD. And it is very similar to what Antiochus in effect did too, if you ignore his idols and sacrifices. Antiochus also murdered many thousands of Jews and brought his pagan army into the holy city of Jerusalem, in order to paganize and Hellenize it. How is this so different from the AoD of 70 AD? The result in both cases were the deaths of many thousands of Jews in Jerusalem, and the paganization of Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

Yes, I've heard all those too, and there may or may not be truth in them. However, you seem to have missed the point I'm making, that you're mixing up the AoD of Antiochus 4 with the AoD of the Roman Army.

Nah, I'm not mixing them up. You only say that because of the propaganda you've learned against that history, and the Daniel 11 Scripture about the "vile person". Antiochus IV served as a BLUEPRINT for the future "abomination of desolation" event of Daniel 11:31. Why as a blueprint? Because Antiochus IV ALMOST completely fulfilled the prophecy of the "vile person" in Daniel 11. Yet we 'know' Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. did not fulfill it, because he had been dead about 200 years already when Jesus prophesied about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel within the Signs He gave for the final generation on earth that sees His future return.

So your speculation of some other meaning than that is exactly that, speculation from men's doctrines, and not an actual teaching that aligns with God's written Word. Those who fail to understand that Antiochus IV serves as a BLUEPRINT for the "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem for the end simply have to have an anvil fall on their heads to believe, which will happen when they actually see it at the end of this world, if they are still here.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nah, I'm not mixing them up. You only say that because of the propaganda you've learned against that history, and the Daniel 11 Scripture about the "vile person". Antiochus IV served as a BLUEPRINT for the future "abomination of desolation" event of Daniel 11:31. Why as a blueprint? Because Antiochus IV ALMOST completely fulfilled the prophecy of the "vile person" in Daniel 11. Yet we 'know' Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. did not fulfill it, because he had been dead about 200 years already when Jesus prophesied about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel within the Signs He gave for the final generation on earth that sees His future return.

So your speculation of some other meaning than that is exactly that, speculation from men's doctrines, and not an actual teaching that aligns with God's written Word. Those who fail to understand that Antiochus IV serves as a BLUEPRINT for the "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem for the end simply have to have an anvil fall on their heads to believe, which will happen when they actually see it at the end of this world, if they are still here.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Rather, I'm trying to explain the difference in our positions. From my perspective, you're using criteria that applied to Antiochus 4 to apply to the AoD in Dan 9.

I don't at all have a problem with viewing Antiochus 4 as a kind of "blueprint" for Antichrist. Nor do I have a problem with accepting that Antiochus 4 in Dan 11.31 did *not* fulfill the prophecy of Jesus in his Olivet Discourse.

As I said, I believe the AoD of Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse are the same AoD, about which Jesus said the temple would fall, and Jerusalem destroyed until the end of this age. It would happen in his generation when armies surround Jerusalem, standing in the holy place, ie in the holy territory, as opposed to the room in the temple.

I'm not sure I can communicate to you about this.

 

[Davy]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Rather, I'm trying to explain the difference in our positions. From my perspective, you're using criteria that applied to Antiochus 4 to apply to the AoD in Dan 9.

I don't at all have a problem with viewing Antiochus 4 as a kind of "blueprint" for Antichrist. Nor do I have a problem with accepting that Antiochus 4 in Dan 11.31 did *not* fulfill the prophecy of Jesus in his Olivet Discourse. As I said, I believe the AoD of Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse are the same AoD, about which Jesus said the temple would fall, and Jerusalem destroyed until the end of this age. It would happen in his generation when armies surround Jerusalem, standing in the holy place, ie in the holy territory, as opposed to the room in the temple.

I'm not sure I can communicate to you about this.

You need to just leave it alone! I will never buy into what you are pushing, which is men's theory that most of Christ's Olivet discourse was fulfilled in the days of Christ's Apostles. Absolutely... not! How so?

Because Jesus in His Olivet discourse per Matthew 24 and Mark 13 revealed that when the generation that sees "all these things", meaning ALL THE SIGNS OF THE END HE GAVE THERE, then THAT specific generation will not pass until "all these things" are fulfilled.

That means ALL those Signs are ONLY for the FINAL generation that will SEE Jesus' future return. Do you understand that? If not, I cannot help you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You need to just leave it alone! I will never buy into what you are pushing, which is men's theory that most of Christ's Olivet discourse was fulfilled in the days of Christ's Apostles. Absolutely... not! How so?

Because Jesus in His Olivet discourse per Matthew 24 and Mark 13 revealed that when the generation that sees "all these things", meaning ALL THE SIGNS OF THE END HE GAVE THERE, then THAT specific generation will not pass until "all these things" are fulfilled.

That means ALL those Signs are ONLY for the FINAL generation that will SEE Jesus' future return. Do you understand that? If not, I cannot help you.

I can leave *you* alone, but I'm not going to leave the *subject* alone! If you don't want to discuss our differences, fine. But don't then start making arguments against my position because I will then just argue back my own position! I don't think we need to be enemies simply because we disagree on what the AoDs in the Bible are?

Yes, your argument here is contingent on the notion that *all* that Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse had to be fulfilled in a single generation. And I believe Jesus was centering on the generation that would see the fall of Jerusalem, 70 AD.

Again, "all these things" is not an open-ended clause. It has a specific application, and thus certain qualifications.

Not everything Jesus said would be fulfilled in a single generation. He was speaking specifically of the birth pangs that lead up to the fall of Jerusalem, including the fall of Jerusalem itself. *All those things* would be seen in the generation of Jesus' Disciples.

Jesus logically excluded the prophecy of his own Coming from the things to be seen in his generation. He specifically denied that anybody should know when that will take place. But as to the question of when the temple would fall, Jesus said it will take place "in this generation," ie in his own time.

Speculating about the time of his Coming is another thing entirely, since we weren't given the time or generation that will see that event. But Jesus gave his Disciples the sense that it was a long ways off, as opposed to being in his own generation. He said it would follow a long age of exile for the Jewish People, which would only begin with the generation that sees the destruction of Jerusalem.

You don't have to accept my argument. I'm just trying to make you properly represent my position. If you don't wish to do that, that's up to you.

 

[Davy]

I can leave *you* alone, but I'm not going to leave the *subject* alone! If you don't want to discuss our differences, fine. But don't then start making arguments against my position because I will then just argue back my own position! I don't think we need to be enemies simply because we disagree on what the AoDs in the Bible are?

Oh, you can discuss your false Preterist/Historicist doctrines from men all you want without me. I'm not preventing you from that, and nor do I have to leave you alone in countering your false doctrines from men's traditions either.

About being friends, as long as you also believe on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit, then we are brethren. But we both may not be 'in Christ' though. There's a price to pay if we heed men's doctrines instead of listening directly to The Father and His Son in HIS Word.

Yes, your argument here is contingent on the notion that *all* that Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse had to be fulfilled in a single generation. And I believe Jesus was centering on the generation that would see the fall of Jerusalem, 70 AD.

I don't believe Jesus was pointing to the generation of 70 A.D. As a matter of fact, I KNOW He was not pointing to 70 A.D. In order for that to be true, it would REQUIRE that Jesus' 2nd coming HAD to have happened back then, simply because the LAST SIGN He gave in His Olivet discourse is that of His coming and gathering of His saints, which directly parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church.

Now if you wrongly believe Jesus' 2nd coming ALREADY HAPPENED back in 70 A.D., or the days of His Apostles, then that makes you a follower of men's false tradition called 'Full Preterism'. Good luck with that falseness, because I don't think Lord Jesus is going to put up with that, so you mark yourself possibly for having Him shut the door in your face when He does come in our near future, like those five foolish virgins in Matthew 25.

 

[ewq1938]

Not everything Jesus said would be fulfilled in a single generation.

Except he did say it would happen that way.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The Abomination of Desolation
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

See how I actually post6 scripture to support what I say? You can see Jesus did say that one generation would see all the things he described and the last two prove a historist view is wrong.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh, you can discuss your false Preterist/Historicist doctrines from men all you want without me. I'm not preventing you from that, and nor do I have to leave you alone in countering your false doctrines from men's traditions either.

Since you mischaracterize my view, or worse, slander me, I need to correct you. My position isn't Preterist/Historicist, although I draw upon some of their views. My position is Futurist, but non-Dispensationalist.

About being friends, as long as you also believe on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit, then we are brethren. But we both may not be 'in Christ' though. There's a price to pay if we heed men's doctrines instead of listening directly to The Father and His Son in HIS Word.

Yes, we have the ability to discern who is in Christ and who is not. We all get emotional and defensive about our positions--we are, after all, only human. But we should make an effort, I think, to restrain our emotions, if we can.

I don't believe Jesus was pointing to the generation of 70 A.D. As a matter of fact, I KNOW He was not pointing to 70 A.D. In order for that to be true, it would REQUIRE that Jesus' 2nd coming HAD to have happened back then, simply because the LAST SIGN He gave in His Olivet discourse is that of His coming and gathering of His saints, which directly parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church.

I already explained to you my position on that. Be happy with what you believe.

Now if you wrongly believe Jesus' 2nd coming ALREADY HAPPENED back in 70 A.D., or the days of His Apostles, then that makes you a follower of men's false tradition called 'Full Preterism'. Good luck with that falseness, because I don't think Lord Jesus is going to put up with that, so you mark yourself possibly for having Him shut the door in your face when He does come in our near future, like those five foolish virgins in Matthew 25.

I'm not sure you're understanding my posts. I never once said Jesus came back in 70 AD. I said that Jesus did not include his Coming as one of the signs of his generation, because he made that event unpredictable for all but the Father. And he indicated it would take place far beyond his own generation, at the end of an entire age of Jewish Punishment.

Jesus said he was speaking of his own generation. Of that I have no doubt myself. So we'll just have to let the Lord speak to us individually?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Except he did say it would happen that way.

I don't agree. Posting the Discourse does not argue for your position at all. It's just the way you choose to read it.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The Abomination of Desolation
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

See how I actually post6 scripture to support what I say? You can see Jesus did say that one generation would see all the things he described and the last two prove a historist view is wrong.

I'm not advocating for an historicist view, which is largely associated with the Reformers' view that the Catholic Church was the Antichrist. Rather, I'm arguing for an *historical* interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. At the same time I'm arguing for the Futurist view that Jesus' Coming remains in the future, beyond the signs that Jesus said would take place in his own generation.

If you read the Scriptures you quoted, you will see that Jesus is speaking to his Disciples, explaining to them that *they* would see these things, or that *their generation,* would see these things.

He said, "Take heed that no man deceive you."
He said, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
And then he said, "for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

So Jesus is saying that *his Disciples,* or *their generation,* would see these things as the *beginning* of a long age of great distress for the Jewish People. The end, or Jesus' Coming, would take place later, at the end of a long age of Jewish Punishment, and Gentile fulfillment.

You see, I read the same material you do. But for me, it reads quite differently. The words, "all these things," are qualified by its intended application, which was said to be things that lead up to the fall of the temple. It excluded, clearly, the Coming of the Son of Man.