Change On The Last Trump

[Davy]

The whole idea of a change from a physical body to a spiritual one, has been confused and misplaced.

Either one believes God's Word as written, or they do not.

Apostle Paul was very plain in explaining that the body of the future is a "spiritual body", NOT a flesh and bone body. The confusion and misplacement you say is actually with those who DEPEND ON FLESH for eternal life, which is NOT a Biblical doctrine.

 

[Keraz]

Either one believes God's Word as written, or they do not.

Apostle Paul was very plain in explaining that the body of the future is a "spiritual body", NOT a flesh and bone body. The confusion and misplacement you say is actually with those who DEPEND ON FLESH for eternal life, which is NOT a Biblical doctrine.

God's Word never says anyone will receive immortality before the Book of Life is opened. AFTER the Millennium. Daniel 12:1b-2, Revelation 20:1-15
It cannot happen before the Eternal state comes. Rev 21 to 22 Only then is Death no more, Revelation 21:4

 

[Davy]

God's Word never says anyone will receive immortality before the Book of Life is opened. AFTER the Millennium. Daniel 12:1b-2, Revelation 20:1-15
It cannot happen before the Eternal state comes. Rev 21 to 22 Only then is Death no more, Revelation 21:4

I am not debating when those in Christ receive immortality. I merely taught what Apostle Paul taught about the resurrection body TYPE, which is a "spiritual body", and not another body of flesh and bones. It should be obvious by now just when one receives that "spiritual body", which the unsaved also have manifested at flesh death.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But I'm not certain what it is you are agreeing with.

As I said, I agree that the 7th Trumpet (of Rev. 11:15) is the "last" trumpet as spoken if in 1 Cor. 15:2 in 1 Thes. 4:16-17. Many attribute Pre-Tribbers view the "last trumpet" as something different, not part of the Revelation trumpets.

Which is more important, what God's Word teaches line upon line, or what men's traditions say?

Are you implying that I am relying on traditions? There are mysteries and confusion surrounding the Millennial Kingdom and the order and interpretation of events in Revelation - a dozen views. Uncertainty cause us to speculate.

Therefore, in order to receive God's Truth by The Holy Spirit, because Paul was teaching via The Holy Spirit in that Chapter about the resurrection body, we must first... be willing to accept the Scripture as written.

Really? I have the Holy Spirit and so di many with various different views and I have come to the conclusion that God intended it to be mysterious as a test of faith. This actually accomplishes an important part of faith, hope and anticipation of His imminent return in all generations.

No, the problem is with the false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory you've been taught

I am not Pre-Tribber and my agreement abive that the 7th Trumpet is the time of our ressurection lkgically excludes a pre-trib view, since 7 seals and 6 six trumpets precede it. It also excludes a Post -Trib. view which you seem to be adhers to BECAUSE, IT?S STILL NOT OVER AT THE 7TH TRUMPET, FHERE ARE STILL 7 BOWLS OF WRATH THAT ARE RELEASED AT THAT TIME.

In Romans 11, Apostle Paul speaking of his own brethren (the Jews), he said that God had spiritually blinded them away from The Gospel until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. That fulfillment means to the day of Christ's future return on the "last trump" (7th), which is the only time of His future return.

I know, where did I imply otherwise?

Here are scriptures about Jesus Millennial Kingdom that He will physically reign over_ in earth! And the resurrection of the dead unfidly will be resurrection with flesh.

"Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, `Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'" EZEK. 37:4-6
>These are the dead being resurrected ... with flesh.
Those who are resurrected to eternal life will have spiritual bodies like Christ.
Also it is prophesied that Christ will physically rule on earth in Jerusalem.
Psalm 72:7-11 "In His days the righteous shall flourish,
And abundance of peace,
Until the moon is no more.
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
9 Those who dwell in the wilderness will bow before Him,
And His enemies will lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles
Will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba
Will offer gifts.
11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him;
All nations shall serve Him."
> Who is this passage referring to?
"His name shall endure forever;
His name shall continue as long as the sun.
And men shall be blessed in Him;
All nations shall call Him blessed.
Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel,
Who only does wondrous things!"
Psalm 72:17-18

This is an earthly kingdom. That did not happen in history.

Isaiah 11:6-10 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
> This is paradise _ on earth_ reborn. It is not a spiritual realm. Nations aren't in heaven, kings of those nations aren't either. People are in heaven too, but the earth below will have still another 1000 years before it is destroyed and replaced by the New Jerusalem.


Daniel 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed."

 

[Davy]

As I said, I agree that the 7th Trumpet (of Rev. 11:15) is the "last" trumpet as spoken if in 1 Cor. 15:2 in 1 Thes. 4:16-17. Many attribute Pre-Tribbers view the "last trumpet" as something different, not part of the Revelation trumpets.

The Pre-tribulational Rapture theory wrongly teaches there are THREE COMINGS by Jesus Christ. The 1st one was history when He died on the cross. The 2nd one they teach is Jesus' coming PRIOR to the tribulation to 'rapture' the Church, which is NOT written. And the 3rd one they wrongly teach is Christ's coming with His already gathered Church.

But the ACTUAL written Bible Scripture shows only TWO COMINGS by Christ Jesus, the 1st one to die on the cross, and the 2nd one to gather His Church AFTER the tribulation and end the reign of the wicked on earth. Even in the Old Testament these only TWO comings are prophesied -- Zechariah 9:9 and 9:10. There is NO pre-trib coming written.

Are you implying that I am relying on traditions? There are mysteries and confusion surrounding the Millennial Kingdom and the order and interpretation of events in Revelation - a dozen views. Uncertainty cause us to speculate.

If you hold to 3 Comings by Christ Jesus, then yes, you would be holding to men's traditions. And what do those 'in Christ Jesus' care about the many dozen views about Christ's future Millennial Kingdom when His faithful servants heed His Word to understand the right one, instead of listening to men's speculations? I am shocked by the confusion you just admitted by your statements above.

Really? I have the Holy Spirit and so di many with various different views and I have come to the conclusion that God intended it to be mysterious as a test of faith. This actually accomplishes an important part of faith, hope and anticipation of His imminent return in all generations.

Saying one has The Holy Spirit and heeding The Holy Spirit are two different things. The Holy Spirit will NEVER go against God's written Word. He will always agree with God's Word, because The Word is from Him.

And the use of that word "imminent" is another clue of the doctrine of men you follow, because the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is also called the "Imminent doctrine", the idea being that Christ's coming can happen at any moment. Thus it is even nicknamed the "any moment doctrine" also. The Biblical evidence though is different, because Jesus Himself showed certain SIGNS MUST HAPPEN first, before His return, and NO man can change that.

I am not Pre-Tribber and my agreement abive that the 7th Trumpet is the time of our ressurection lkgically excludes a pre-trib view, since 7 seals and 6 six trumpets precede it. It also excludes a Post -Trib. view which you seem to be adhers to BECAUSE, IT?S STILL NOT OVER AT THE 7TH TRUMPET, FHERE ARE STILL 7 BOWLS OF WRATH THAT ARE RELEASED AT THAT TIME.

Well, based on what you've said, you reveal you don't really know 'what' you follow, because you certainly cannot follow parts of the Pre-trib Rapture theory like you do, and pretend that you're still following God's Word as written. Why do I say this?...

Because if you believe the 7 Vials happen after the Seals and Trumpets, then it means you support the coming of Christ and gathering of His Church PRIOR to the Vials of wrath. And doing that means following the false Pre-trib Rapture Theory.

So if you were thinking to be cute with me in trying hide what you actually follow, you failed. Your belief of the order of events show you hold to a Pre-trib Rapture theory.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But the ACTUAL written Bible Scripture shows only TWO COMINGS by Christ Jesus, the 1st one to die on the cross, and the 2nd one to gather His Church AFTER the tribulation and end the reign of the wicked on earth. Even in the Old Testament these only TWO comings are prophesied -- Zechariah 9:9 and 9:10. There is NO pre-trib coming written.

Are you not grasping that I said _ TWICE _ that I AM NOT A PRE-TRIB adherent?

If you hold to 3 Comings by Christ Jesus, then yes, you would be holding to men's traditions.

And where did I imply that?

Well, based on what you've said, you reveal you don't really know 'what' you follow,

You can't seem to grasp it.
I am A Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath Rapture Pre-Millennialist.
Christ will physically rule on earth for 1000 years while only Christians will live on earth in Paradise in harmony in peace even among the animal kingdom. A remnant Jewish population will be saved after His coming and pritectes during this time. They will repolulate the earth along with those who were left behind that did not take the mark of the beast and survived. Nations will grow.
You are ignoring all the OT scriptures I presented. It seems as though you are listening to a different channel and can't tune into the right frequency. So at this time I must say, over and out.

 

[Keraz]

I am not debating when those in Christ receive immortality. I merely taught what Apostle Paul taught about the resurrection body TYPE, which is a "spiritual body", and not another body of flesh and bones. It should be obvious by now just when one receives that "spiritual body", which the unsaved also have manifested at flesh death.

A 'spiritual body' must be an immortal one. Even Satan does not die. Revelation 20:10

A dead person knows nothing, they 'sleep' until they stand before God in Judgment. After the Millennium.

 

[n2thelight]

Wow!!! God's Word is all truth!!! Read it and believe and ignore the ideas and opinions of little men!
A believers new eternal body will be very physical just like Jesus has now, we will eat and dink and be just as Jesus is!!

Christ was transfigured ,also we are not getting a new body ,think Paul told us we have two .The spirit steps out of the flesh at death or the return of Christ, whichever comes first .

 

[n2thelight]

A 'spiritual body' must be an immortal one. Even Satan does not die. Revelation 20:10

A dead person knows nothing, they 'sleep' until they stand before God in Judgment. After the Millennium.

A spiritual body is not necessarily immortal ,it most put on immortality
Soul sleep is not scriptural
And satan will die

 

[Davy]

Are you not grasping that I said _ TWICE _ that I AM NOT A PRE-TRIB adherent?


And where did I imply that?

Have you not said before in another post to me, that you believe in a Mid-trib coming of Christ to gather His Church?

 

[Davy]

A 'spiritual body' must be an immortal one. Even Satan does not die. Revelation 20:10

Apostle Paul used the Greek word thnetos for "this mortal" in 1 Corinthians 15 pointing to the condition of unsaved souls. The word means 'liable to die'. That means the unsaved during Christ's future "thousand years" reign, including the "resurrection of damnation", will still be in a 'liable to die' condition throughout that period, and subject to the "second death". Revelation 20 defines the "second death" as the casting into the future "lake of fire". Thus the unsaved do NOT have 'eternal Life', and both their spiritual body with soul can still perish at the "second death". And Lord Jesus reiterated this destruction in the future lake of fire fact in Matthew 10:28.

So what about that don't you understand?

A dead person knows nothing, they 'sleep' until they stand before God in Judgment. After the Millennium.

Nope. In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul showed to be absent from the body (flesh) means to be present with Christ. The 'dead in the ground' soul sleep theory is from old Judaism, the Jew's religion. And those Jews DO NOT READ The New Testament Bible where those in Christ are shown what actually happens when our flesh dies.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Have you not said before in another post to me, that you believe in a Mid-trib coming of Christ to gather His Church?

Yes and that means I am not an adherent to Pre-Trib views.
>>>But what's more important than my view of when the rapture takes place, is the larger view that most have of the Millennial Kingdom; which is a physical earthly Kingdom/ Paradise reborn with Christ physically ruling in Jerusalem while Satan and his demons are chained up in the Abyss (located in the center if the earth).

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Think!! It takes a real physical body to drink wine and eat fish as Jesus did and says He will again at His return.

It will be a multi-dimensional spiritual body capable of physically appearing in the flesh and then disappearing, ascending to heaven in the spiritual realm and back, like Jesus and the angels did.
The doors were shut in the upper room and Jesus materialized as if passing through the walls.
He talked with two men on His Resurrection day and they did not recognize Him (just a temporary blindness for a purpose) until He broke bread and handed it to them - then He disappeared.
A week later He met the disciples in Galilee, 80 miles away. Do you think He walked there? No. He probably did 'nt fly either. He just appeared out of the spiritual dimension which has no mass, time, or distance, to Galilee. He could appear in China and seconds later 10,000 miles away. I believe our bodies will be able to do the same - no more frequent flyer miles needed, no more third class. It will be equivalent to "Beem me down Scotty".

 

[Davy]

Yes and that means I am not an adherent to Pre-Trib views.

We went over this before. ANY... belief in a 'rapture' PRIOR to the "great tribulation" is ACTUALLY a Pre-trib Rapture theory view.

What exactly is the Mid-trib view? It is a belief that Jesus comes to rapture His Church at the Mid-point of Daniel's final "one week" of Daniel 9:27. That means in the MIDDLE of the 7 years ("one week"). At that Mid-point is when the coming false Messiah shows up and sets up the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem. That is ALSO WHEN the Pre-trib Rapture theory proclaims Jesus will come to rapture the Church BEFORE the tribulation by that Wicked one starts, which is that Mid-point of Daniel's "one week".

That... is where the Mid-trib doctrine from men was derived.

 

[Davy]

>>>But what's more important than my view of when the rapture takes place, is the larger view that most have of the Millennial Kingdom; which is a physical earthly Kingdom/ Paradise reborn with Christ physically ruling in Jerusalem while Satan and his demons are chained up in the Abyss (located in the center if the earth).

I guarantee you, one's belief about the TIMING of Christ's future coming is MUCH, MUCH, more important, simply because what one believes will determine whether they will be gathered by Lord Jesus or not.

A false-Messiah is coming to play God in Jerusalem first, so if you fall away to that one, thinking he is Jesus having returned, then you won't be gathered by the True Jesus Christ when He comes to destroy that false one. And there are plenty of Bible Scriptures that forewarns us about that false one coming first before Lord Jesus does, so there is no excuse. And Lord Jesus showed that false one that comes first will work such a great power of deception with fooling the majority into think he truly is God, that if possible, it would deceive even Christ's own very elect (Matthew 24:23-26).

And Lord Jesus warned where those foolish virgins and unprofitable servants will be when He returns. They will be put with the wicked in the "outer darkness".

 

[Davy]

Yes and that means I am not an adherent to Pre-Trib views.

I must also include this about that Mid-trib rapture view.

Many are confused about what the coming 'tribulation' time is. The Mid-Trib view treats the time of "great tribulation" as the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (7 years). That means the 1260 days, or 42 months of Revelation 11 and 13.

Yet they also treat the first half of the "one week" (7 years) as a tribulation time also, but it is not the tribulation time. Only the latter half of the "one week" is the actual "great tribulation" time Jesus taught. Thus the Mid-trib view preaches the rapture occurs PRIOR to the time of "great tribulation", which is also... the same time that the Pre-trib rapture view preaches when the rapture occurs.

So what you have with the Mid-trib view is actually a Pre-trib view in disguise.

 

[Davy]

The following human arch footprint was walked over by a dinosaur.

Now scientists say (which I'm not an evolutionist at all), say the dinosaurs were wiped out approximately 65 million years ago. So that had to have been when that human footprint also was made, and both were fossilized together in stone. It doesn't matter how old the earth is that one believes with this evidence in stone.

The real matter is even evolutionist scientists have never had any valid documentation to support the idea that flesh man existed back to the time of the dinosaurs. No flesh skeletal remains have been dated back to the same time as the dinosaurs. They claim Neanderthal man goes back to 70,000 years ago, but 65 million years ago for dinosaurs is still a long ways from that.

What then made that human arch footprint back with the time of the dinosaurs?

And notice that human footprint looks just like a human of today would make. That's especially important, because it proves man's outward appearance actually has NOT changed (dumps evolution theory), even back to the time of dinosaurs 65 millions years ago! (if that date is accurate, I'm not saying it is).

So WHAT made that human footprint?

I say it was an ANGELIC FOOTPRINT, made back in the old world, BEFORE Satan rebelled against God. There is Biblical evidence of a world earth age that was prior to this present one we are in now, even before the time of Adam and Eve. Apostle Peter called it "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3), and that it perished by water (not time of Noah).

 

[ScottA]

God's Word never says anyone will receive immortality before the Book of Life is opened. AFTER the Millennium. Daniel 12:1b-2, Revelation 20:1-15
It cannot happen before the Eternal state comes. Rev 21 to 22 Only then is Death no more, Revelation 21:4

That is the thinking of time-bound men.

But those who are born of God who is forever, have become eternal with Him in Oneness:

John 17:22
And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one.​

A 'spiritual body' must be an immortal one. Even Satan does not die. Revelation 20:10

​

A dead person knows nothing, they 'sleep' until they stand before God in Judgment. After the Millennium.

...So then you were just referring to the timing?

​

If so...you have missed the fact that time with God is not as it would appear.

Why would you make a point of the timing when it is established that you could be off by a thousand years?​

What point do you hope to make?​

 

[Davy]

What's my point with the human-dinosaur footprint fossil?

It reveals that the ANGELIC BODY is able to walk and live upon this earth, even though it is a different dimension type body, one of Spirit.

What's even more amazing, is that it also points to how our Heavenly Father Himself is able to walk and live upon this earth He created to be lived upon! (Genesis 3:8; Revelation 21:3). And remember, Apostle John said "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24).

Thus the angelic, or "spiritual body", evidently does have some kind of substance, otherwise it would not be able to make that human footprint shown fossilized with a dinosaur stepping on it. That future body of the world to come has an outward physical likeness, it simply is a body of that other dimension. Those confused about this are deceived by thinking of man's ghost stories and such.

 

[ScottA]

What's my point with the human-dinosaur footprint fossil?

It reveals that the ANGELIC BODY is able to walk and live upon this earth, even though it is a different dimension type body, one of Spirit.

What's even more amazing, is that it also points to how our Heavenly Father Himself is able to walk and live upon this earth He created to be lived upon! (Genesis 3:8; Revelation 21:3). And remember, Apostle John said "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24).

Thus the angelic, or "spiritual body", evidently does have some kind of substance, otherwise it would not be able to make that human footprint shown fossilized with a dinosaur stepping on it. That future body of the world to come has an outward physical likeness, it simply is a body of that other dimension. Those confused about this are deceived by thinking of man's ghost stories and such.

Matter is energy. Energy (all power) belongs to God.