GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
NO unbeliever will be resurrected!!NO unbeliever will be raptured!!
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NO unbeliever will be resurrected!!NO unbeliever will be raptured!!
Whatever you think you got figured out, be faithful of His return. You might have to make some adjustments along the way. Peace to you, maybe Ill see you on other side.The time of "great tribulation" Jesus showed begins with the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a third temple in Jerusalem at the end. That is the MID point of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27. That "one week" is symbolic of a 7 year period, so the MID point of it means the START of the latter 1260 day half.l How many times must I remind you of that? So your continued reference to a 7 year tribulation is defunct.
Sure you are, if you adhere to man's Mid-trib rapture theory. And that Mid-trib theory says Jesus comes to rapture His Church in the MIDDLE of Daniel's symbolic "one week". That just so happens to also be when the coming false Messiah is to setup the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem, and start the "great tribulation", the latter 1260 day period.
That above is a clear butchering of God's written Word in a vain attempt to make it say something totally different. The fulfillment of the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christ's 1st coming, nor His future 2nd coming. That Daniel 9:27 verse is about the coming false-Messiah ending the re-established old covenant sacrifices in Jerusalem for the end, and then placing the abomination that maketh desolate, which is the subject about the "vile person" in Daniel 11 that makes the "league" in Jerusalem with a "small people" (i.e., small group of political Jews). Even there the Scripture says that vile person will initially be against the "holy covenant". What was the "holy covenant" in Daniel's days? The old covenant with sacrifices.
Dan 11:31-36
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
KJV
Even that part in verse 36 verse above is linked to what Apostle Paul described the "man of sin" in Jerusalem will do in exalting himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped (2 Thessalonians 2). That is also linked to the prophecy in Revelation 13:4-8 about the "dragon".
You've already shown you don't really understand what timing the "great tribulation" is about, nor when it starts per the prophecies Lord Jesus gave. You are too busy following what men say, instead of heeding what God says in His Word.
Whatever you think you got figured out, be faithful of His return. You might have to make some adjustments along the way. Peace to you, maybe Ill see you on other side.
Listen you stated YOURSELF that the last trump was the 7th Trumpet. That is what I agreed with from the start. Logic would dictate that since the are events prior to thw 7th Trumpet (7 seals and 6 trumoets) AND events after the 7th Trumpet (7 Bowls if wrath), then a child can figure that the 7th Trumpet is in the middle of the Great Tribulation. That is Mid-Trib. A child can figure that with colored blocks on the table.No adjustments for me, I listen to The LORD in His Word, and He gives understanding for keeping His Word, and not man's. The MID-trib doctrine you heed is NOT God's Word, so you figure out the rest.
Listen you stated YOURSELF that the last trump was the 7th Trumpet. That is what I agreed with from the start. Logic would dictate that since the are events prior to thw 7th Trumpet (7 seals and 6 trumoets) AND events after the 7th Trumpet (7 Bowls if wrath), then a child can figure that the 7th Trumpet is in the middle of the Great Tribulation. That is Mid-Trib. A child can figure that with colored blocks on the table.
Revelation is not all in chronological order. We are shown event after event, chapter after chapter, only because we cannot see all these events that coincide, and happening simultaneously and accumlating over time. The events brought on by the four horseman are happening together. It's not like a billion people die from wars and once that happens, then another billion die from famine pestilence. Death comes quickly, yet that's the last horse.How can the 7th Trumpet be when The Father and The Son have taken over all kingdoms on earth, yet the Revelation 16 battle of Armageddon hadn't happened yet, nor any of the previous Vials of God's wrath?
How can they do that if they are completely unconscious as you claim?You answer that by posting Rev 6:9-11.
God does allow them to cry out at times,
They don't receive immortal BODIES until then, but they are already immortal as their eternal destiny is already sealed.but they do not receive immortality until they stand before God in the final Judgment.
How can they ask God about when their blood will be avenged if they know nothing? Is Revelation 6:9-11 in your Bible? How about Luke 16:19-31? Is that in your Bible? How about the account of Christ's transfiguration? Is that in your Bible? How were the long dead Moses and Elijah able to talk to Jesus if they knew nothing?The dead are dead and they know nothing. They 'sleep' until the GWT Judgment.
Yes, but what you miss is that the GWT judgment occurs right after Christ returns, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.That prophecy is plainly, obviously; about the GWT Judgment.
Proved by how it is then that Death is no more, As Rev 21:4. AFTER the Millennium, tells us.
He sure has fooled you on this particular subject.It is only wrong and false Church teaching that leads people to think there is any 'life after death'. Satan has a field day with the gullible, by using his demons to fool people they are their loved ones speaking.
That is your interpretation of that verse, but you're not recognizing that what it means is that after death all you have to look forward to is judgment because there is nothing you can do after death to change your fate on judgment day. That does not mean you are completely unconscious in the mean time. You just assume that while ignoring the scriptures which show physically dead people as still being alive and aware spiritually.Hebrews 9:27 says it plainly; After death comes Judgment.
You die, then at your next conscious moment, you are standing alongside every other person who has ever lived and the Books are opened.
They can't. So, he's clearly being dishonest with that belief since keeping his precious doctrine afloat is more important than humbling himself and accepting the truth, which is that only believers will be changed at the last trumpet to have the incorruptible, immortal bodies that Paul described in 1 Corinthians 15. It's very clear that Paul never said anything about the fate of unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 15 and his focus was only on believers there.Yes, Dave is becoming more and more a preacher of propaganda.
How can any honest student of the Bible come to the conclusion that the wicked unrighteous will be changed, and/or resurrected, when the Bible plainly states they will all be destroyed upon Christ's return?
Agree. It's nonsense of the highest order. But, you can't tell them that. They are very convinced that their utter nonsense is somehow true.You have to be very young in the faith, and/or very naive, to believe these nonsensical claims that so many wolves are pushing throughout all of Christendom today.
Absolute nonsense.
How can the 7 bowls all follow the 7th trumpet when Christ will have returned at the 7th and last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the time for the dead to be resurrected and judged will have arrived at that point (Revelation 11:18)? That makes no sense. You're not recognizing that there are recapitulations or parallels within the book of Revelation rather than it all being a chronological account of events.Listen you stated YOURSELF that the last trump was the 7th Trumpet. That is what I agreed with from the start. Logic would dictate that since the are events prior to thw 7th Trumpet (7 seals and 6 trumoets) AND events after the 7th Trumpet (7 Bowls if wrath), then a child can figure that the 7th Trumpet is in the middle of the Great Tribulation. That is Mid-Trib. A child can figure that with colored blocks on the table.
You may not agree because it is a very rare, fringe, topic, but I believe that it is the unbelieving, wicked, sinners that know nothing in the grave. I believe they are not resurrected and that their physical death is the end for them.How can they do that if they are completely unconscious as you claim?
They don't receive immortal BODIES until then, but they are already immortal as their eternal destiny is already sealed.
How can they ask God about when their blood will be avenged if they know nothing? Is Revelation 6:9-11 in your Bible? How about Luke 16:19-31? Is that in your Bible? How about the account of Christ's transfiguration? Is that in your Bible? How were the long dead Moses and Elijah able to talk to Jesus if they knew nothing?
Yes, but what you miss is that the GWT judgment occurs right after Christ returns, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
He sure has fooled you on this particular subject.
That is your interpretation of that verse, but you're not recognizing that what it means is that after death all you have to look forward to is judgment because there is nothing you can do after death to change your fate on judgment day. That does not mean you are completely unconscious in the mean time. You just assume that while ignoring the scriptures which show physically dead people as still being alive and aware spiritually.
What do you make of the following passages then?You may not agree because it is a very rare, fringe, topic, but I believe that it is the unbelieving, wicked, sinners that know nothing in the grave. I believe they are not resurrected and that their physical death is the end for them.
You lost me here. To me, a Christian is someone who belongs to Christ, so, based on that definition, a Christian cannot go to hell. How are you defining the term "Christian"?It answers a lot of questions and solves a lot of problems with certain doctrines. It lines up with the "saints" that were raised at Jesus' death. They were specifically identified as 'saints' not just people in general. It also proves that there is only one resurrection. In John 5:28 we see one resurrection ... with two outcomes for those resurrected.
What does this prove? It proves that Christians can and do go to hell. That is a major threat to the mainstream party line and they do not want anybody to know that because it completely contradicts most of what they teach in churchianity today. It blows Pre-Mil right outta the water.
It seems to me that Luke 16:19-31 says otherwise.So, as to the topic of your discussion, it is saints that are conscious in the spirit after their physical deaths, speaking to Jesus about getting justice for their murders; and it is the unbelieving, wicked sinners that know nothing in the grave
If Revelation 20:10 is any indication then the lake of fire is a place where beings can experience eternal torment, so I can't agree with you here.and have no future beyond their physical death.
God allows them to cry out for His purposes.How can they do that if they are completely unconscious as you claim?
I agree.They don't receive immortal BODIES until then, but they are already immortal as their eternal destiny is already sealed.
Revelation 20 tells us 6 times that there will be a thousand year period between the Return of Jesus until the GWT. Seems you missed that.Yes, but what you miss is that the GWT judgment occurs right after Christ returns, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
That is when the resurrection of the dead and the living occurs. Rewards are given, the judgment against the world continuesHow can the 7 bowls all follow the 7th trumpet when Christ will have returned at the 7th and last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the time for the dead to be resurrected and judged will have arrived at that point (Revelation 11:18)? That makes no sense. You're not recognizing that there are recapitulations or parallels within the book of Revelation rather than it all being a chronological account of events.
First of all, the word multitudes there has been changed; it is a modern translation you got that from. The KJV simply says many ... which, by definition, means not all. Therefore, if you look at the true meaning of that verse then, we have 'A portion of those who are dead will awake: a portion of that portion will wake to everlasting life, the rest to shame and everlasting contempt.'What do you make of the following passages then?
Daniel 12:2 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here we have one of multiple examples of the word all not meaning all. Many will claim a word in the Bible not meaning what it says to bolster their argument, but I can prove it.John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Yes, the just and unjust Christians.Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
No, actually they don't.These verses describe the resurrection of unbelievers, so I'm not sure how you are concluding that unbelievers are not going to be resurrected.
Yes, that verse does present a person in hell consciously interacting.As for them not knowing anything when they're dead, what do you make of a passage like Luke 16:19-31?
First of all, Revelation is a book of symbols, visions and non-literal, non-chronological information. And, for the record, I have seen you use that as a rebuttal here yourself. So, you might want to explain yourself there if you're acting like you support one position then switching camps when it suits you.If Revelation 20:10 is any indication then the lake of fire is a place where beings can experience eternal torment, so I can't agree with you here.
Revelation is not all in chronological order.
God told Adam in Gen. 3:19 that he came from the ground and that he would return to being dirt when he died. Turn to Gen. 2:7 and you can clearly see the Bible say "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground"! It does not say God took an immortal soul and made man!At death we return to the Father ,no one will come out of a grave ,to believe that is to believe in soul sleep .Do you believe Christ rose from the grave? I know you do , so do tell where do you think people are now?
How can Christ bring people with Him at His return if they are in a grave somewhere ?
Dirt is what it is DIRT ,we were never meant to be made Dirt(flesh).
Well, you arw righr about one thing, I am out of breath with this conversation. See ya.Yeah, I know that, which is why the events of Christ's coming is shown on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. That links all those together as being the 'same'... time.
So really, your long-winded attempt to explain why you believe in a separation of the 7 Vials as happening by itself only after all the Seals and Trumpets have happened, doesn't stay with the actual Scriptures.
God told Adam in Gen. 3:19 that he came from the ground and that he would return to being dirt when he died. Turn to Gen. 2:7 and you can clearly see the Bible say "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground"! It does not say God took an immortal soul and made man!
The fact that Paul taught in 1 Cor. 15 that a person has to be given immortality means we do not inherently possess it. The fact that this chapter also shows Paul saying that all in Adam will die and be made alive through a resurrection shows that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Human beings do not possess immortality, which is why the Bible teaches that it has to be given to us. We are dust, and apart from God, that's all we'll ever amount to being.
Some of your questions are drifting back and forth between two concepts, but I will try and address them the best I can; for any further interest, peruse the thread Only Believers are Resurrected?
First of all, the word multitudes there has been changed; it is a modern translation you got that from. The KJV simply says many ... which, by definition, means not all. Therefore, if you look at the true meaning of that verse then, we have 'A portion of those who are dead will awake: a portion of that portion will wake to everlasting life, the rest to shame and everlasting contempt.'
Ok, so that begs some questions, doesn't it?
1. If some will not awaken, why is that? Because not all are raised.
2. Who are they that don't awaken? They are unbelievers.
3. If some of those who do awaken are ashamed and have everlasting contempt, why and how would that be? It can only be that some of those are accepted and some are not.
4. Who can those be? It can only be Christians who are separated by Jesus there; the sheep from the goats - the worthy/righteous from the unworthy/unrighteous.
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