The Church and the State

[[email protected]]

You completely misunderstood me. :)

I said it doesn't apply because it doesn't apply to the question. The question, might I remind you, was whether the church should work along with the state.

The question was not what role should the church fulfill, or what should it do. It was, should it work with the state.

And I'm the opposite of what you say. I am not pro government. The government is corrupted by the power of money and of greed. Only the church should not tie itself to something that corrupts it. A little leaven leavens the whole batch!

Misunderstanding?

Mistake?

I didn't imply 'tying' or marrying the church to government. IMO the church ought to have an impact upon government by means of persuasion, of demonstration, of teaching its members about right and wrong government actions, of public rhetoric BY the church. It is the only restraint upon the wickedness of unshackled government left to us.

If you suppose that the church will remain holy and uncorrupted by refusing to have anything to do with government opposition, think again. Christ did not come to serve and save the holy. He came to clean the unclean, to rescue the needy and to give hope to those who had been oppressed by THEIR government.

Make no mistake about this - that our government has thrown off the chains of the constitution, of American tradition, of human rights, decency and the law, both international as well as our own. It is dragging all of us down. We may not be able to arrest this trend, but we can at least declare it for what it is - debauchery, treachery and treason. Our own government has betrayed us. How long shall the church be silent?

Exactly :)

If we expect the government to act righteously, we'll get a reality check soon. The government is corrupted by money, power, etc.

If the church allies itself with the government, it opens the door for the same perversion. That's just what I was pointing to.

We are to pray for the government, yes, but not ally ourselves with it.

I do NOT pray for the government. That body is wholly and completely corrupt and gone 'round the bend. One might just as well pray for a dead body because nothing righteous is left of that governing body except the stench of it.

I have listened to preachers call America to pray for its leaders for SIXTY years. Those prayers have not been answered. Do you wish to argue that point with me? Look around you and tell me what you see?

Is there ANY evidence of answers to prayer for wisdom and compassion in DC? I tell you there is none.
Is there ANY evidence of justice to our own citizens, to the aliens among us or even toward foreign persons?
Is there anything in Washington that is good? Not a thing.
Not so much as a dot of truth is found there any more. It is completely corrupt and God does not reward wickedness.

Will you ask me the extent of our wickedness and duplicity? It is so deep and wide that no one can see the far end of it.
Indeed it has become so bad that even the most ardent of patriots must declare we are seriously lost as a nation.

"The American people have no idea what is happening to them."
- Pravda

'There ought to be limits to freedom.'
--Presidential candidate George W. Bush in a press conference at the Texas State House, May 21, 1999


IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

 

[Prentis]

Misunderstanding?

Mistake?

I didn't imply 'tying' or marrying the church to government. IMO the church ought to have an impact upon government by means of persuasion, of demonstration, of teaching its members about right and wrong government actions, of public rhetoric BY the church. It is the only restraint upon the wickedness of unshackled government left to us.

If you suppose that the church will remain holy and uncorrupted by refusing to have anything to do with government opposition, think again. Christ did not come to serve and save the holy. He came to clean the unclean, to rescue the needy and to give hope to those who had been oppressed by THEIR government.

Make no mistake about this - that our government has thrown off the chains of the constitution, of American tradition, of human rights, decency and the law, both international as well as our own. It is dragging all of us down. We may not be able to arrest this trend, but we can at least declare it for what it is - debauchery, treachery and treason. Our own government has betrayed us. How long shall the church be silent?



I do NOT pray for the government. That body is wholly and completely corrupt and gone 'round the bend. One might just as well pray for a dead body because nothing righteous is left of that governing body except the stench of it.

I have listened to preachers call America to pray for its leaders for SIXTY years. Those prayers have not been answered. Do you wish to argue that point with me? Look around you and tell me what you see? Is there anything in Washington that is good? Nothing. Not so much as a dot of truth is found there any more. It is completely corrupt and God does not reward wickedness.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

Brother, I just meant that you misunderstood what I meant by 'it doesnt apply'. I meant it doesnt apply to the question of the poll itself, not that its no good to be discussed. I wasnt discrediting your post, just saying why I hadnt put it in the options. I was thinking specifically of cooperation when I wrote the question, not influence one upon another. That's all :)

Again, feels like we talk different languages brother :lol:

I've been saying just that; we can't be in agreement with the government, and simply by being like Christ, we wiil make them despise us.

And I agree with you that the government is corrupt, I will simply answering foreigner as to what she said, as the scriptures say we should pray for the rulers. You do correct me on this point; I should not say pray for the government, but rather for the ruler. Thank you for setting my clocks straight! ;)

God will judge countries, of course. And remember that the prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man avails much. Are men who lie on TV, saying you will be healed and preaching a prosperity Gospel righteous? I think we should pray for the rulers, because they are men like us and we are commanded to... (1 Tim. 2:2) But even if the righteous pray, I don't expect them to change.

Honestly, rjp, I think we are having a hard time understanding what we are saying, most of what I said and meant was taken the wrong way :)

The Lord bless you, brother

 

[[email protected]]

Brother, I just meant that you misunderstood what I meant by 'it doesnt apply'. I meant it doesnt apply to the question of the poll itself, not that its no good to be discussed. I wasnt discrediting your post, just saying why I hadnt put it in the options. I was thinking specifically of cooperation when I wrote the question, not influence one upon another. That's all :)

Honestly, rjp, I think we are having a hard time understanding what we are saying, most of what I said and meant was taken the wrong way :)

The Lord bless you, brother

I concede your point.

You appear to be saying many things I agree with........just differently.

We appear to be at cross purposes while following the same path.

Christ does indeed bless me, though I deserve it not.
May He do so to you as well.

 

[Prentis]

I concede your point.

You appear to be saying many things I agree with........just differently.

We appear to be at cross purposes while following the same path.

Christ does indeed bless me, though I deserve it not.
May He do so to you as well.

Yes, I think we were saying alot of the same stuff! :)

Thank you for the kind words brother... The Lord bless you!

 

[Foreigner]

Misunderstanding?

I do NOT pray for the government. That body is wholly and completely corrupt and gone 'round the bend. One might just as well pray for a dead body because nothing righteous is left of that governing body except the stench of it.

I have listened to preachers call America to pray for its leaders for SIXTY years. Those prayers have not been answered. Do you wish to argue that point with me? Look around you and tell me what you see?

-- So, just because YOU don't see prayer answered in the way YOU expected it to be answered, to the degree YOU expected it to be answered, you should stop doing what God's Word calls on you to do...

Prayer hasn't been answered in the way YOU feel it should be answered so....obeying God's Word in this area is now null and void.

Yeah, good luck with that.


Others, who actually use common sense can ponder on what likely would have happened to Americans, America and the World by now if other Christians had actually have been obedient in prayer about their leaders and country.

 

[Prentis]

I see your point, we should obey scripture, yes.

But we shouldn't be putting any hope in what any country could of been. The god of this world, satan, is running things, as God has let him. Our hope is in Christ and the new creation, not the old.

Just saying...

With love in our Lord :)

 

[Foreigner]

But we need to realize that just because America's and the world's situations are nowhere near what we had hoped when we began to obediently pray, it doesn't mean that our faithful prayers (asking that God's will be done) haven't been answered.

 

[[email protected]]

Apparently there has been a sale on Rose-colored glasses, because a lot of folks aren't seeing political reality clearly. Neither do they want to openly acknowledge the repression that has descended upon us.

The Federal government is actively engaged in suppressing free speech - specifically within our churches.

Executive Orders and 501C3 laws. First 501C3:
"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501©(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes." (IRS.Gov)

The above is illegal according to the now obsolete uS Constitution, but that doesn't stop the IRS or any governmental henchmen from assuming that YOUR church is in violation. Stand up in the assembly of the saints and declare that such and such a politican or governmental policy is treasonous - and YOU and YOUR CHURCH can be prosecuted. FOR REAL BOYS AND GIRLS. Go back and read the statute again. I didn't make this garbage up.

INNOCENCE WILL NOT SAVE US. This is not some crazy half baked nightmare. It's a real living attack upon our religious liberty.

The following is from the web site of Homeland Security. It states the intended specific goals for governmental meddling with the practice of our religion.

* Develop policy and protocols for the engagement of faith-based and
community organizations in Departmental initiatives;
* Develop and coordinate Departmental outreach efforts to
disseminate information more effectively ...
* Provide opportunities for unaffiliated faith-based and
community organizations to formally engage in emergency
preparedness, response and recovery activities by building
strategic relationships with voluntary organizations active
in disasters and with state and local emergency management
professionals;
>>> * Co-sponsor joint training efforts with the Department
and other local, state and federal government entities
to build the capacity of faith-based and community
organizations to engage in Department-related
efforts. (Ibid)

Christians need to be TRAINED to cooperate with government?

We need to be TRAINED?

Are we now dogs that our government needs to TRAIN us in proper political behavior?

What will you do brothers and sisters? The above are quotes from government sources and which directly threaten our liberty.

There are but two alternatives; rise up and act or crawl into a dark corner eat worms and die.

WE MUST CHOOSE and no choosing IS a choice.

 

[Foreigner]

Everything you just posted shows now more than ever that we need to obey God's edict and pray for our leaders and our country.

 

[THE Gypsy]

The Federal government is actively engaged in suppressing free speech - specifically within our churches.

Executive Orders and 501C3 laws. First 501C3:
"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501©(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes." (IRS.Gov)

The above is illegal according to the now obsolete uS Constitution, but that doesn't stop the IRS or any governmental henchmen from assuming that YOUR church is in violation. Stand up in the assembly of the saints and declare that such and such a politican or governmental policy is treasonous - and YOU and YOUR CHURCH can be prosecuted. FOR REAL BOYS AND GIRLS. Go back and read the statute again. I didn't make this garbage up.

How so?

 

[Prentis]

Apparently there has been a sale on Rose-colored glasses

:lol: Hahaha....

We can never trust in man's politics to do God's will, we would be fooling ourselves to do so.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Also, [email protected] in the Constitution are churches exempted from paying taxes?

 

[veteran]

Also, [email protected] in the Constitution are churches exempted from paying taxes?

It's called the 1st Amendment. Government shall make no law establishing religion, nor prevent the free expression thereof.

 

[THE Gypsy]

It's called the 1st Amendment. Government shall make no law establishing religion, nor prevent the free expression thereof.

Apples to oranges. "an establishment of religion" or "preventing the free expression of" has absolutely nothing to do with "tax exemption".

As a matter of fact...Churches didn't become officially tax exempt under the law until 1954.

 

[[email protected]]

It's called the 1st Amendment. Government shall make no law establishing religion, nor prevent the free expression thereof.

This is a misquote. The actual document reads "Congress shall not". I suppose that leaves the door open to the courts, the president and every self-righteous bureauocrat to rule otherwise.

As they have done.

As they will continue to do.

Besides, that obsolete piece of paper is no longer respected as a guide or even law in this land. The Constitution is meant to put chains on the government NOT THE PEOPLE.

Today Washington has thrown off the chains and is running around like a wild beast, devouring all in it's path.

Who's next on the dinner table folks?

 

[goodshepard55]

Well said rjp...well said...my thoughts also...

 

[veteran]

This is a misquote. The actual document reads "Congress shall not". I suppose that leaves the door open to the courts, the president and every self-righteous bureauocrat to rule otherwise.

As they have done.

As they will continue to do.

Besides, that obsolete piece of paper is no longer respected as a guide or even law in this land. The Constitution is meant to put chains on the government NOT THE PEOPLE.

Today Washington has thrown off the chains and is running around like a wild beast, devouring all in it's path.

Who's next on the dinner table folks?

Well, I didn't put that in quotations if you'll notice.

Don't agree the U.S. Constitution is actually an obsolete piece of paper. The politicians may be treating it as such, but it's not supposed to be. It's still to be the law of the land. If it ain't, then it's OUR fault, the people, for not making it so.

 

[[email protected]]

Also, [email protected] in the Constitution are churches exempted from paying taxes?

They are not, which is the caveat for submission of churches to the state. If American churches paid their taxes, then there would be more freedom of expression from the pulpit. Much more.

In 1930's Germany, the chosen method for NAZIfication of Germany included financial support to the churches. The threat of withdrawal of monies to the churches kept most of the leaders in line with NAZI party policy including the murder of Jews and political opposition.

Today the American church enjoys much the same sort of financial support as well as the threat of withdrawal of that support AND FINES from the I.R.S. if church leaders endorse political policy and/or candidates.

IMHO it would be a blessing if all churches paid their taxes. It would cut the unbilical cord to church support for corrupt government policy.
On the other hand, we will not see such a withdrawal of financial tax support. It is a hook in the mouth of the American church which is too useful to be removed.

I agree with you sir. Remove the taxes. Unfortunately that is something we shall not see.....and I'll bet many agree with my reasons.

How so?

Dear Gypsy,
You asked how the American government was suppressing (perhaps the proper word is oppressing) freedom of the press and free speech. A recent article written by a professional journalist employed by a respected news agency might answer your question best.

"In its operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. military has detained journalists without charge for long periods, and failed to adequately investigate our documentation of the killings of 16 journalists by U.S. forces' fire."

"Anti-state charges and "terrorist" labels have become commonplace and are used to unduly intimidate, detain and imprison journalists. Media blackouts and limited access to war and conflict zones have become routine, along with the uninvestigated killings of journalists. To put it starkly, 81 journalists were in jail around the world at the end of 2000. By the end of 2001, that number shot up to 118. Today there are 145, most held on state security charges."

"Ten years on, it's clear that the anti-terror rhetoric and policies developed by the United States* after 9/11 have provided effective and enduring cover for the erosion of civil liberties around the world -- including press freedom."
- Joel Simon CNN 09/09/11

(*) italics mine

 

[THE Gypsy]

Dear Gypsy,
You asked how the American government was suppressing (perhaps the proper word is oppressing) freedom of the press and free speech. A recent article written by a professional journalist employed by a respected news agency might answer your question best.

No, I did not.

When I asked "How so?" It was regarding the following that I have made bold and larger. It had nothing to do with "freedon of the press" or "free speech". Neither did your post.

The Federal government is actively engaged in suppressing free speech - specifically within our churches.

Executive Orders and 501C3 laws. First 501C3:
"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501©(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes." (IRS.Gov)

The above is illegal according to the now obsolete uS Constitution, but that doesn't stop the IRS or any governmental henchmen from assuming that YOUR church is in violation. Stand up in the assembly of the saints and declare that such and such a politican or governmental policy is treasonous - and YOU and YOUR CHURCH can be prosecuted. FOR REAL BOYS AND GIRLS. Go back and read the statute again. I didn't make this garbage up.

INNOCENCE WILL NOT SAVE US. This is not some crazy half baked nightmare. It's a real living attack upon our religious liberty.

The following is from the web site of Homeland Security. It states the intended specific goals for governmental meddling with the practice of our religion.

* Develop policy and protocols for the engagement of faith-based and
community organizations in Departmental initiatives;
* Develop and coordinate Departmental outreach efforts to
disseminate information more effectively ...
* Provide opportunities for unaffiliated faith-based and
community organizations to formally engage in emergency
preparedness, response and recovery activities by building
strategic relationships with voluntary organizations active
in disasters and with state and local emergency management
professionals;
>>> * Co-sponsor joint training efforts with the Department
and other local, state and federal government entities
to build the capacity of faith-based and community
organizations to engage in Department-related
efforts. (Ibid)

Christians need to be TRAINED to cooperate with government?

We need to be TRAINED?

Are we now dogs that our government needs to TRAIN us in proper political behavior?

What will you do brothers and sisters? The above are quotes from government sources and which directly threaten our liberty.

There are but two alternatives; rise up and act or crawl into a dark corner eat worms and die.

WE MUST CHOOSE and no choosing IS a choice.

 

[[email protected]]

What is your point?

That freedom of the press and speech is not being repressed, including but not limited to the church?

That the I.R.S. is, in and of itself, as an agency of the government - legal? Please quote constitutional law which justifies the income tax. I don't think you can, but go ahead and take a shot.

As I stated before, I think the church would be better off with no reliance upon tax breaks at all. It was established, grew and flourished without uS government tax breaks most of its history. It could do so again in this country.