The Nature of Jesus Christ

[Johann]

testing the Spirit

Wrong rendering of metaphors...we are not to dokimazete the Holy Spirit..but the spirits
You know?
Guess not
J.

 

[RedFan]

Let’s talk about your second statement. Who did Jesus identify as his God when he walked the earth 2,000 years ago?

The God of Israel. Referred to by Jesus as "the Father," if the gospel accounts are accurate.

 

[Johann]

Jesus Christ himself has a God.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

Guess you've failed the test
J.

 

[Matthias]

The God of Israel. Referred to by Jesus as "the Father," if the gospel accounts are accurate.

I agree.

The God of Israel is the God and Father of Jesus.

When Jesus spoke about his God he spoke about one person.

A person whose God is one person, the Father, isn’t a trinitarian. Such a person is a unitarian.

 

[RedFan]

Wrong rendering of metaphors...we are not to dokimazete the Holy Spirit..but the spirits
You know?
Guess not
J.

Ye i know. I should have used a lower-case "s" here. My bad.

And I am insulted by your "Guess not" comment. Why do you feel the need to be condescending? (Maybe "condescension" is another way to test the spirit . . .)

 

[Johann]

Ye i know. I should have used a lower-case "s" here. My bad.

And I am insulted by your "Guess not" comment. Why do you feel the need to be condescending? (Maybe "condescension" is another way to test the spirit . . .)

My bad..
leka meea
J.

 

[Matthias]

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

Guess you've failed the test
J.

Connect the dots properly and a different picture emerges.

 

[Episkopos]

Psalm 51
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Wisdom in the above citation is "hochmah", which is not eternal wisdom (toushiyah) but the kind of wisdom that preserves our lives. David humbles himself before the Lord admitting that sin is ingrained in him since birth...even before birth.

Are we more pure than David? Are we not all born in sin? (outside of the covering of Christ and an intimate walk with the Lord)

We are born without a spiritual covering, so we learn to rely on the power of the flesh to empower us to get what we need to survive. It just so happens that our selfish nature is patterned after the devil...not God. That part of us must be broken...crucified...to allow purity to fill our souls.

We are each created in God's image in the inner man...even the most wicked among us. Most of us will identify with the sinful carnal nature within us as being our very being...rather than identify with the weakness of the inner man that is created in God's image.

Eternal wisdom (toushiyah תושיה) can only be received in an intimate connection to God. Toushiyah means "God of my weakness" (Toushi-Yah). It is only as we let go of our carnal strength and come to God in our natural weakness that God's grace can be made to cover us. So we are to "put on" Christ.

<><

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus is a quickening Spirit....sharing the one eternal Holy Spirit with His Father. Jesus is a Source of life...the Way the Truth and the Life. His human nature was unaffected by the fall...it was like Adam's nature BEFORE the fall. Jesus is called "the last Adam."With Jesus comes a fresh slate....a clean slate in which to redeem humankind back to Himself.

Jesus came to save us from the power of the flesh that causes us to sin...and love sinning. He came to purchase us back from the ownership of the devil. The outer nature of man is influenced by the devil...as a covering over our inner parts. The power of the cross breaks that covering husk, thus freeing us to come under the headship covering of Christ.

So then inwardly we ALL are created in God's image. However, we ALL have a protective husk that is modeled after the devil and his aspirations. When we go to the cross the link with the devil in our outer man is broken, freeing us to serve the living God.

Until we are crucified in the outer man we cannot say like Jesus..."here comes the devil and he has NOTHING IN ME."


John 15:30 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."

 

[Johann]

Connect the dots properly and a different picture emerges.

Cross your "t's" and dot your "eyes" and maybe you you will see what you don't see.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

The God of Israel. Referred to by Jesus as "the Father," if the gospel accounts are accurate.

Actually the God of Israel...Elohey Yisrael...is Jesus the Lord. It is the Most High...the Father...the Lord of Hosts...that is the God of ALL flesh. Jesus' inheritance was His people.....Israel. Jesus was always LORD over Israel. He came to His own and they didn't recognize Him.

There are many times in the Bible where BOTH Father and Son are cited as the plural Elohim. One must look at the Hebrew rendering to see if there is a singular descriptive (El or Yah) or a plural one. This says a lot about who exactly is being referenced.

The Bible is very consistent if you know what to look for!

 

[Johann]

Jesus is a quickening Spirit....sharing the one eternal Holy Spirit with His Father. Jesus is a Source of life...the Way the Truth and the Life. His human nature was unaffected by the fall...it was like Adam's nature BEFORE the fall. Jesus is called "the last Adam."With Jesus comes a fresh slate....a clean slate in which to redeem humankind back to Himself.

Jesus came to save us from the power of the flesh that causes us to sin...and love sinning. He came to purchase us back from the ownership of the devil. The outer nature of man is influenced by the devil...as a covering over our inner parts. The power of the cross breaks that covering husk, thus freeing us to come under the headship covering of Christ.

So then inwardly we ALL are created in God's image. However, we ALL have a protective husk that is modeled after the devil and his aspirations. When we go to the cross the link with the devil in our outer man is broken, freeing us to serve the living God.

Until we are crucified in the outer man we cannot say like Jesus..."here comes the devil and he has NOTHING IN ME."


John 15:30 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."

Powerful, full of kratos, dunamis and exousia.
J.

 

[Johann]

Actually the God of Israel...Elohey Yisrael...is Jesus the Lord. It is the Most High...the Father...the Lord of Hosts...that is the God of ALL flesh. Jesus' inheritance was His people.....Israel. Jesus was always LORD over Israel. He came to His own and they didn't recognize Him.

There are many times in the Bible where BOTH Father and Son are cited as the plural Elohim. One must look at the Hebrew rendering to see if there is a singular descriptive (El or Yah) or a plural one. This says a lot about who exactly is being referenced.

The Bible is very consistent if you know what to look for!

Not to mention the Ehyeh asher Ehyeh
J.

 

[RedFan]

I agree.

The God of Israel is the God and Father of Jesus.

When Jesus spoke about his God he spoke about one person.

A person whose God is one person, the Father, isn’t a trinitarian. Such a person is a unitarian.

But during this "emptied himself" time that Jesus walked the earth, there would have been little basis for any declaration by Jesus of identity to the Father. Besides, he was addressing Jews who would never be able to comprehend any esoteric declaration of Jesus' divine identity without seeing pure blasphemy (as some of them ultimately did).

Post-resurrection, and for that matter pre-incarnation, the question of his divinity remains open and debatable. The debate has raged for almost 2,000 years, and I suspect you and I will not resolve it here!

From the very first, the apostles and those who received their doctrine directly from them have understood the pre-incarnate Christ to be both
the Wisdom of God and the Word of God as portrayed in the Hebrew Scriptures. Their insistence on this fundamental identity was soon recorded, in gospel and in epistle, identifying Christ with these attributes of God. The saints of subsequent generations then preserved this identity, recognizing that as Word and Wisdom of God, Christ himself could thus be none other than true God. Ignatius of Antioch, in his Letter to the Ephesians, writes of Christ as ‘God existing in flesh.’ Irenaeus of Lyons writes, in Against Heresies, that ‘He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord.’ Hippolytus, in his treatise Against Noetus, writes of ‘Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man.’ Clement of Alexandria writes in his Exhortation to the Heathen that ‘this very Word has now appeared as man, he alone being both, both God and man.’

Such has been our heritage, recognizing Christ as truly divine, as truly God. I am loathe to dismiss all of this as baseless banter simply because Jesus referred to God as "the Father."

 

[Matthias]

But during this "emptied himself" time that Jesus walked the earth, there would have been little basis for any declaration by Jesus of identity to the Father. Besides, he was addressing Jews who would never be able to comprehend any esoteric declaration of Jesus' divine identity without seeing pure blasphemy (as some of them ultimately did).

Post-resurrection, and for that matter pre-incarnation, the question of his divinity remains open and debatable. The debate has raged for almost 2,000 years, and I suspect you and I will not resolve it here!

From the very first, the apostles and those who received their doctrine directly from them have understood the pre-incarnate Christ to be both
the Wisdom of God and the Word of God as portrayed in the Hebrew Scriptures. Their insistence on this fundamental identity was soon recorded, in gospel and in epistle, identifying Christ with these attributes of God. The saints of subsequent generations then preserved this identity, recognizing that as Word and Wisdom of God, Christ himself could thus be none other than true God. Ignatius of Antioch, in his Letter to the Ephesians, writes of Christ as ‘God existing in flesh.’ Irenaeus of Lyons writes, in Against Heresies, that ‘He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord.’ Hippolytus, in his treatise Against Noetus, writes of ‘Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man.’ Clement of Alexandria writes in his Exhortation to the Heathen that ‘this very Word has now appeared as man, he alone being both, both God and man.’

Such has been our heritage, recognizing Christ as truly divine, as truly God. I am loathe to dismiss all of this as baseless banter simply because Jesus referred to God as "the Father."

That’s a lot to respond to.

You know that Jesus identified the Father as his God. His theology is Jewish unitary monotheism.

You know that his God is the God of Israel. It couldn’t be otherwise - there is no God besides the God of Israel.

You know that the God of Israel himself doesn’t have a God.

You know that a person can be called “God” in scripture in a secondary sense and that such a person is an agent or representative of the God of Israel. You know that the judges of Israel are examples of such persons.

That’s a lot to know about Jesus, and we were able to agree on all of it.

You’ve said that you have difficulty understanding how God can have a God. I think we’ve been able to agree that God himself doesn’t have a God.

So where are we at the moment?

God doesn’t have a God.

Jesus has a God.

What’s the logical conclusion?

Jesus isn’t God.

Where does that leave us?

We both believe that Jesus is in some sense God.

Jesus isn’t God; Jesus has a God; God doesn’t have a God; Jesus is God.

Jesus isn’t God and Jesus is God.

If Jesus is “God” in the primary sense, then this is a contradiction.

If Jesus is “God” in a secondary sense, then this is not a contradiction.

Jesus isn’t God and Jesus is God.

Trinitarianism doesn’t accommodate that. Jewish unitary monotheism does.

Jesus is a Jewish unitary monotheist. He is his God’s shaliach.

I believe every scripture which bears on the identity of the God of Israel must align with the Jewish unitary monotheism. I believe that every passage of scripture which bears on the identity of the God of Israel must align with Jesus’ own belief which you and I were able to agree on - the God of Israel, his God, the Father, is the God of Israel.

The God of Israel is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Wouldn’t you agree?

The God of Israel is the God of Moses. Wouldn’t you agree?

The God of Israel is the God of Jesus. On that we have agreed.

There is only one God - the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, of Moses, of Israel, of Jesus.

Is the one God the Trinity?

If so, then the Trinity is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses, of Israel, of Jesus.

Is the one God only the Father?

If so, then the Father is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, of Moses, of Israel, of Jesus.

You concluded your post speaking about our heritage, what we have received. You passed over Jewish unitary monotheism and indicated that we have received trinitarianism.

I agree that we have received trinitarianism but we also received Jewish unitary monotheism. Those two forms of monotheism are wholly incompatible.

The Church began as a sect of Judaism. It didn’t remain there. How we got from the Jewish unitary monotheism of Jesus and the earliest Christians to the trinitary monotheism we have received is well documented in Church history.

Jesus is the head of the Church. We should be able to agree on that. Do we?

Jesus, himself a Jewish unitary monotheist - a unitarian - is the head of the Church.

The theology of the head should match the the theology of the body. Or, if you prefer, the theology of the body should match the theology of the head.

Either way, trinitarianism isn’t the theology of the head; Jewish unitarianism is.

 

[Matthias]

Cross your "t's" and dot your "eyes" and maybe you you will see what you don't see.
J.

I’ve been where you are. I’ve seen what you see. I’ve seen something better in Jesus.

 

[APAK]

That’s a lot to respond to.

You know that Jesus identified the Father as his God. His theology is Jewish unitary monotheism.

You know that his God is the God of Israel. It couldn’t be otherwise - there is no God besides the God of Israel.

You know that the God of Israel himself doesn’t have a God.

You know that a person can be called “God” in scripture in a secondary sense and that such a person is an agent or representative of the God of Israel. You know that the judges of Israel are examples of such persons.

That’s a lot to know about Jesus, and we were able to agree on all of it.

You’ve said that you have difficulty understanding how God can have a God. I think we’ve been able to agree that God himself doesn’t have a God.

So where are we at the moment?

God doesn’t have a God.

Jesus has a God.

What’s the logical conclusion?

Jesus isn’t God.

Where does that leave us?

We both believe that Jesus is in some sense God.

Jesus isn’t God; Jesus has a God; God doesn’t have a God; Jesus is God.

Jesus isn’t God and Jesus is God.

If Jesus is “God” in the primary sense, then this is a contradiction.

If Jesus is “God” in a secondary sense, then this is not a contradiction.

Jesus isn’t God and Jesus is God.

Trinitarianism doesn’t accommodate that. Jewish unitary monotheism does.

Jesus is a Jewish unitary monotheist. He is his God’s shaliach.

I believe every scripture which bears on the identity of the God of Israel must align with the Jewish unitary monotheism. I believe that every passage of scripture which bears on the identity of the God of Israel must align with Jesus’ own belief which you and I were able to agree on - the God of Israel, his God, the Father, is the God of Israel.

The God of Israel is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Wouldn’t you agree?

The God of Israel is the God of Moses. Wouldn’t you agree?

The God of Israel is the God of Jesus. On that we have agreed.

There is only one God - the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, of Moses, of Israel, of Jesus.

Is the one God the Trinity?

If so, then the Trinity is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses, of Israel, of Jesus.

Is the one God only the Father?

If so, then the Father is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, of Moses, of Israel, of Jesus.

You concluded your post speaking about our heritage, what we have received. You passed over Jewish unitary monotheism and indicated that we have received trinitarianism.

I agree that we have received trinitarianism but we also received Jewish unitary monotheism. Those two forms of monotheism are wholly incompatible.

The Church began as a sect of Judaism. It didn’t remain there. How we got from the Jewish unitary monotheism of Jesus and the earliest Christians to the trinitary monotheism we have received is well documented in Church history.

Jesus is the head of the Church. We should be able to agree on that. Do we?

Jesus, himself a Jewish unitary monotheist - a unitarian - is the head of the Church.

The theology of the head should match the the theology of the body. Or, if you prefer, the theology of the body should match the theology of the head.

Either way, trinitarianism isn’t the theology of the head; Jewish unitarianism is.

Straight to the point, there's is no ambiguity in your words. Either one believes in monotheistic Unitarianism of only one Father God, derived from the Hebrews, or a belief in a form of trinitarianism or some other form and relationship of more that one god. worship.

 

[marks]

I have two sources that helps me a lot, Robertson's Word studies and Vincent's Word studies plus my own studies on the morphology of the Greek and Hebrew study.
That's all I have since dictionaries and study material is scarce here and here people are HUNGRY for the scriptures and every study help they can find.

I use these a lot myself. Both of those in particular. They help me very much to understand the Bible. I don't mean to disparage extra-Biblical resource, not in the least. Only to say, if there is something that the Bible says (Robertson and Vincent help us know what it says) that is different than something another book says, only the Bible carries the authority.

This is my bone of contention marks, is there ever a time you would say 'No, I don't have the answer'

Yes, absolutely! And sometimes I use other books to show me some different directions people have looked at. But at the end, truth is in Scripture.

Sinless Perfectionism Is Heresy: (7 Biblical Reasons Why)

This is what I noticed re your posts, correct me if I'm wrong
J.

I'm not sure why you posted this, would you elaborate?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Using your definition of death,

1. Did Jesus experience death [i.e. was Jesus separated from God]?

Using my definition of death, YES, Jesus died, in that He was separated from His body. Physical death, yes.

Hebrews 10:10 KJV
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Did God die? I think that is a silly question.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity

If @marks disagrees then he is clearly wrong (said this in love) since this is the way I believe, but the topic is not about the Triune God here @Matthias.

J.

God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are One God.

God the Son was incarnated into human flesh, died, and rose again from the dead.

Any questions?

Much love!