Timing of the abomination of desolation

[covenantee]

So you insist that everyone who names are writen were resurrected in 70 AD as Daniel wrote?

Where is that in Daniel 9:26-27?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Where is that in Daniel 9:26-27?

That's what I thought. You ignored everything Jesus said about it. You even ignored Jesus's quote of Daniel.

I see no reason to discuss this matter anymore. If you would ignore Christ, I know your not going to pay any attention to anything anyone else has to say about it.

 

[covenantee]

That's what I thought. You ignored everything Jesus said about it. You even ignored Jesus's quote of Daniel.

I see no reason to discuss this matter anymore. If you would ignore Christ, I know your not going to pay any attention to anything anyone else has to say about it.

Daniel 9:26b-27 is one of the three harmonized Scriptures that I've been discussing.

If you've been discussing something else, I have no idea what it is.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Daniel 9:26b-27 is one of the three harmonized Scriptures that I've been discussing.

If you've been discussing something else, I have no idea what it is.

I've been discussing the abomination that causes desolation.
You seem to have been discussing something else. Just forget it.
I will go ahead and use the ignore feature so we don't have this miscommunication anymore.
You should try the same.

 

[covenantee]

I've been discussing the abomination that causes desolation.
You seem to have been discussing something else. Just forget it.
I will go ahead and use the ignore feature so we don't have this miscommunication anymore.
You should try the same.

Daniel 9:26b-27, Matthew 24:15, and Luke 21:20 are all about the abomination of desolation.

Identifying it.

Confirming its identification.

Complementary and corroborative descriptions.

The Roman armies.

Destroying Jerusalem.

In 70 AD.

Rebutting and refuting df's futurized fantasies and fallacies.

 

[Timtofly]

Saying an account does not have to list events in chronological order is not the same thing as saying I don't know what order those events are in. The context, if properly recognized, will tell you what order the events are being mentioned in.



Yes, it's acknowledge by history that Jewish believers fled Israel in the time the Roman armies began to invade and lay siege to Jerusalem. And Jesus said this would happen to "you," ie Jesus' disciples, in "this generation," ie while people who were alive in Jesus' time were still alive.



We know that the temple was completely razed when the Romans broke through the gates of Jerusalem. That fits the prophecy, both in Dan 9.26-27 and in Luke 21.



The "ruler to come" in Dan 9.26 is generic, and may apply to any number of Roman rulers who assisted in the destruction of Jerusalem. It included Cestius Gallus, as well as Titus.

In the same way, the AoD included the entire period from 66 to 70 AD. The devastation of Jerusalem continued, as you said, in 135 AD. And that's because Jesus said Israel's period of desolation would continue from 70 AD to the end of the age.



I don't agree. I would assume that the AoD fit both Antiochus 4 and the Roman generals who laid siege to Jerusalem. Both had armies. Both killed masses of Jews. Both presented an idolatrous presence in the temple, not simply as an occupying force, but as a hostile force attempting to destroy what the Jews viewed as orthodox worship. Antiochus tried to enforce Hellenism on the orthodox Jews. The Romans simply destroyed all temple worship under the Law by destroying the temple.



Yes, the eagle standards represented, symbolically, the pagan desecration of the temple area. Their eagles were pagan gods. Their presence as an occupying force was one thing. But coming as a bird of prey was another thing entirely! And that is precisely how Jesus described it, as birds of prey gathering for a feast, or to a "corpse."



I believe the opposite to be true. A "desolation" took place in a different ways in different times. Antiochus committed sacrilege in one way, offering pig sacrifices and setting up idols. And the Romans committed sacrilege a different way, but completely eliminating the possibility of all sacrifices and offerings at the temple.

Both were "abominations" because they were pagan armies come to do harm to Jewish worship in Jerusalem--not strictly an occupying force. Both were desolaters because they were armies who destroyed Jews with their military forces, both priests and people.



A lot of scholars have differed on what the AoD specifically is. I believe that's because there is confusion over the fact there are 2 very different AoDs mentioned in Daniel. Dan 9 refers to the Roman AoD, and Dan 8, 11, and 12.11 refer to the Antiochus AoD.

To confuse the different things they did causes us to confuse the definition of what an AoD is. It is not strictly offering idols and corrupt sacrifices in the temple. Rather, it is a hostile pagan presence of an Army that desolates, or destroys, Israel, the people of God. They utterly destroy Israel's form of worship under the Law, which today we understand is irrelevant regardless.

So you agree the abomination of desolation happened for hundreds of years starting with Antiochus Epiphanes and ending in the third century AD.

It was never just about 70AD. But covered hundreds of years as long as a foreign army was in Jerusalem. I don't agree, but you cannot keep contradicting your own point. If it was armies, then it was non stop desolation for hundreds of years. You cannot keep denying that fact.

 

[covenantee]

A lot of scholars have differed on what the AoD specifically is. I believe that's because there is confusion over the fact there are 2 very different AoDs mentioned in Daniel. Dan 9 refers to the Roman AoD, and Dan 8, 11, and 12.11 refer to the Antiochus AoD.

Absolutely and unmistakably true.

 

[Timtofly]

When the walls come down and the ceiling caves in I would say you can no longer call it a building. Why do you ask? Do you think a building has to completely disintegrate and be 100% annihilated in order to no longer be a building? In that case, for example, you could conclude that the twin towers in New York were still buildings after they collapsed, but no one in their right mind would claim that.

Simply evey stone means every stone.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So you agree the abomination of desolation happened for hundreds of years starting with Antiochus Epiphanes and ending in the third century AD.

It was never just about 70AD. But covered hundreds of years as long as a foreign army was in Jerusalem. I don't agree, but you cannot keep contradicting your own point. If it was armies, then it was non stop desolation for hundreds of years. You cannot keep denying that fact.

But that's not what I said, and it's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that *all armies in history are AoDs!* Rather, I'm saying a pagan army invading a sacred temple in Jerusalem represented an "abomination" poised to commit "desolation."

No, Jesus was not describing an AoD that lasted for 100s of years! Rather, he was saying that an age-long devastation would take place *starting* with the fall of the temple in 70 AD. The AoD was just the starting point for the Roman AoD. Antiochus 4 was another AoD that pointed specifically to his reign of terror in Jerusalem approx. 168-164 BC. The continued existence of Syrian armies did not mean the AoD continued!

Jesus indicated "tribulation" or "distress" for the Jewish People would continue throughout the NT age. But he did not indicate that all Jewish distress would take place in the desolation of 70 AD, nor did he say the desolation of 70 AD would continue throughout the NT age.

"Desolation" and "Tribulation" are two different things in this sense. "Desolation" refers to the act of the AoD in 70 AD. It was the desolation of the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

And "Tribulation" refers to the Jewish suffering throughout their NT Diaspora. It refers to the long exile of the Jewish People from their land during the NT era. This suffering began after 70 AD and has continued ever since. Jesus referred to it as the "greatest" tribulation in the history of the Jewish People, because it would last far longer than any previous Jewish punishment in their history. It lasts throughout the entire NT age!

Jesus indicated that the Jewish People would not survive if this long period is not eventually cut short. There have been numerous attempts to afflict the Jewish People in history, and sometimes efforts to eradicate many of them.

As time has gone on, it seems the efforts to commit genocide against them as gotten worse, as we saw in WW2. And so, as the Muslim world gets ever more hostile and ever more threatening towards modern Israel, the time of Jewish tribulation must soon come to a close, or they will not survive as a people or as a nation.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew is also incomplete, because he does not actually identify the abomination of desolation. Neither does Daniel, so Daniel is also incomplete.

Luke is the only one who does identify the abomination of desolation.

The Roman armies.

No, Luke gave the warning that saved many lives in 66AD.

Your imagination as a human is fixated on Roman armies. It is understandable that the one prophecy that was fulfilled is now the hope of all the other points, so you can declare a statement of proof.

The armies were in 66AD. That is the extent of the prophecy. The AoD is still future, because Daniel 9:27 is still future. Trying to combine them is like trying to combine the birth of Christ and the Second Coming. It was not a single event, even though, those in the first century thought it was. We should understand more 1992 years later. Yet some here want it to have been declared fulfilled in 70AD.

 

[covenantee]

No, Luke gave the warning that saved many lives in 66AD.

Yes, he warned how to recognize the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies; and many lives were saved as a result. Thankfully, none of them was a df.

Your imagination as a human is fixated on Roman armies.

There is no imagination like df imagination. It is the essence of unreality, unable and unwilling to recognize evidence in the most elementary form. "Hallucination" is a more accurate description.

Trying to combine them is like trying to combine the birth of Christ and the Second Coming.

Using Scripture to interpret Scripture is the most fundamental principle of sound exegesis. However, it is a principle alien to df.

It was not a single event, even though, those in the first century thought it was.

I'll take the wisdom and discernment of the Judean Christians over any modernist df fantasies and fallacies.

Every time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, Luke gave the warning that saved many lives in 66AD.

Your imagination as a human is fixated on Roman armies. It is understandable that the one prophecy that was fulfilled is now the hope of all the other points, so you can declare a statement of proof.

The armies were in 66AD. That is the extent of the prophecy. The AoD is still future, because Daniel 9:27 is still future. Trying to combine them is like trying to combine the birth of Christ and the Second Coming. It was not a single event, even though, those in the first century thought it was. We should understand more 1992 years later. Yet some here want it to have been declared fulfilled in 70AD.

With all due respect, I think you're making some mistakes here. For one, I don't think the Early Church believed that Christ's 2 Comings were to be one. They may have thought that before Christ's death, but not afterwards!

The Early Church largely believed the AoD was something to do with the Romans 66-135 AD. A couple of them believed the AoD was in the distant future, and they were the minority.

Matthew and Luke were in complete agreement on the AoD being the Roman armies. Luke spelled it out by saying so. Matthew indicated that simply by referencing Dan 9.26-27 which presented an abominable army set to desolate Jerusalem and the temple. All 3 synoptic Gospels agreed that Jesus spoke of an AoD in his generation, fulfilled with the coming of Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem.

The 1st approach in 66 AD by Cestius Gallus gave Christians the signal to prepare to leave. Sometimes that takes a couple of years since a lifetime of land ownership is difficult to leave, and preparing supplies requires a harvest or two. Those who waited to the last moment (in 70 AD) had to come down from their house roofs and run without looking back--no time to prepare any longer!

 

[Timtofly]

"Desolation" and "Tribulation" are two different things in this sense. "Desolation" refers to the act of the AoD in 70 AD. It was the desolation of the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

And "Tribulation" refers to the Jewish suffering throughout their NT Diaspora. It refers to the long exile of the Jewish People from their land during the NT era. This suffering began after 70 AD and has continued ever since. Jesus referred to it as the "greatest" tribulation in the history of the Jewish People, because it would last far longer than any previous Jewish punishment in their history. It lasts throughout the entire NT age!

There was no AoD in 70AD.

The only thing that happened was the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed.

The desolation and abomination is the 42 months given to Satan after the Second Coming.

Why do you want to point out so many AoD throughout history? Just calling every time Israel has trouble an AoD event does not make sense. You have not given a single reason why only one particular army can be the AoD.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, he warned how to recognize the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies; and many lives were saved as a result. Thankfully, none of them was a df.



There is no imagination like df imagination. It is the essence of unreality, unable and unwilling to recognize evidence in the most elementary form. "Hallucination" is a more accurate description.



Using Scripture to interpret Scripture is the most fundamental principle of sound exegesis. However, it is a principle alien to df.



I'll take the wisdom and discernment of the Judean Christians over any modernist df fantasies and fallacies.

Every time.

It seems all the proof you can muster is your ability to jump to conclusions.

 

[Timtofly]

With all due respect, I think you're making some mistakes here. For one, I don't think the Early Church believed that Christ's 2 Comings were to be one. They may have thought that before Christ's death, but not afterwards!

The Early Church largely believed the AoD was something to do with the Romans 66-135 AD. A couple of them believed the AoD was in the distant future, and they were the minority.

Matthew and Luke were in complete agreement on the AoD being the Roman armies. Luke spelled it out by saying so. Matthew indicated that simply by referencing Dan 9.26-27 which presented an abominable army set to desolate Jerusalem and the temple. All 3 synoptic Gospels agreed that Jesus spoke of an AoD in his generation, fulfilled with the coming of Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem.

The 1st approach in 66 AD by Cestius Gallus gave Christians the signal to prepare to leave. Sometimes that takes a couple of years since a lifetime of land ownership is difficult to leave, and preparing supplies requires a harvest or two. Those who waited to the last moment (in 70 AD) had to come down from their house roofs and run without looking back--no time to prepare any longer!

That is not the point. Matthew linked all events to the Second Coming. You are tearing Matthew apart to falsely interpret Luke.

Luke did not tie the armies to the Second Coming. That is why Luke is about 66AD.

They were not supposed to plan an escape and settle land property issues. They were to immediately flee.

Matthew is about the Second Coming, not 70AD. You are not interpreting Scripture with Scripture. You are using Luke to refute Matthew is about the Second Coming. If you establish Matthew is about the Second Coming, why would you split Matthew into both a 1st century scenario and a Second Coming scenario? You are not even describing a double fulfilment. You clearly need the AoD to be the armies to place Matthew in the 1st century instead of the Second Coming time frame.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There was no AoD in 70AD.

The only thing that happened was the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed.

The desolation and abomination is the 42 months given to Satan after the Second Coming.

Why do you want to point out so many AoD throughout history? Just calling every time Israel has trouble an AoD event does not make sense. You have not given a single reason why only one particular army can be the AoD.

It's not what I *want* to do brother--it's what I *must* do if I want to be honest with myself about what I think Daniel said. Once again, Dan 9 spelled out an AoD in 9.26-27. And the context in vs. 26 is clear--it has to do with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in the time of Messiah. That happened in 70 AD, and the vast number of Church Fathers recognized this.

Why do you propagate your own opinion if only because you propagate what you believe is true? I'm no different.

Stating that there are 2 AoDs in the Bible is not propagating "so many AoDs throughout history!" Again, in the book of Daniel I believe there are only 2 AoDs, one in Dan 9.26-27, and the other in Dan 8, 11, and 12.7. The former represents the Roman armies, as Jesus explained in Luke 21. And the latter represents Antiochus 4.

There is not one mention of an AoD representing the Antichrist in the New Testament. If you wish to interpret it as such from the OT Scriptures, that is your prerogative. But nothing in the NT confirms that, including the Olivet Discourse. There is not one mention of Antichrist in the Olivet Discourse unless you are to read it into Jesus' mention of the AoD.

Nevertheless, when Jesus mentioned the AoD in his Discourse he said it would take place in "this generation," meaning his own generation. Therefore, I cannot agree that the AoD in any sense ever referred to Antichrist. At best, the AoD in Jesus' time may have alluded to an endtimes fulfillment of the same. But it is certainly not explicit.

 

[Truth7t7]

Those who waited to the last moment (in 70 AD) had to come down from their house roofs and run without looking back--no time to prepare any longer!

With all due respect, those who come down from their houses and don't look back, is a future generation that will witness the literal, visible, return of Jesus Christ in the heavens, and that didn't take place in 70AD

 

[covenantee]

It seems all the proof you can muster is your ability to jump to conclusions.

There are no conclusions more conclusive than those sourced in the indisputable and unassailable fulfillments of the prophetic Holy Scriptures' "things which become sound doctrine" (Titus 2:1), whose divine declarations "...cannot be broken" (John 10:35).

 

[Keraz]

There is not one mention of an AoD representing the Antichrist in the New Testament.

Plainly stated scripture refutes you:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1. Now, about the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He is to gather us to Himself.
This refers to the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. As described in Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11.
Jesus will send out His angels to gather His people to Him, on earth: in Jerusalem, where He will be by then. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


2-3; I beg you, my friends, do not act hastily or be alarmed by anything that alleges that Day has arrived. Let no one deceive you in any way.
Don’t be fooled by any false teaching, Jesus is ‘with us Spiritually’, Matthew 28:20b, in this age, but His physical Return is yet to come.


3-4; That Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form, the man doomed to destruction. He will desecrate the Temple and claim to be God.
This rebellion is explained to us in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 11:36-39, Revelation 13:3-8

He is the Anti-Christ of the 'last hour', referred to in 1 John 2:18 and after 42 months, Revelation 11:3, when He Returns, Jesus will chain him up, Revelation 20:2, eventually to destroy him. Revelation 20:10

 

[Randy Kluth]

Plainly stated scripture refutes you:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

You are arguing that there is an Antichrist predicted in the NT. I said there is no *AoD representing Antichrist* predicted in the NT.