What if you lose your faith?

[Johann]

I believe your sincerity, thank you. I believe that the simple answer to the OSAS debate is salvation is safe and secure and unmovable for the believing person. As long as you are believing in the blood of Christ and the promise of eternal life you are safely kept in the power of God's kingdom and salvation. Nothing can move you, nothing can displace you, as it was under the old covenant.

I am in full agreement with you here and could not have said it better myself.
J.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Here is something else that is “ present tense”.....Jesus said “ HAS” Eternal Life ! NOT “ will have” Eternal Life....Stop misquoting Scripture.

You're not being honest. I have said that the believing person does indeed have eternal life, right now. That's what the scriptures say, so that's the way it is. The problem is your definition of 'eternal'. It doesn't mean you automatically have the life that is eternal forever from this point. It means the life that you are receiving is an everlasting life, as opposed to the 'life' that the old covenant ministry and sacrifice of the Levites gave a person. I know this is probably not going to land with you, but I'm more that happy to help you understand the legitimacy of what I'm saying. The life you receive is what is eternal, not your possession of it (in this life), unless you continue to believe.

 

[Behold]

James 2:14-17
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James is teaching that "faith can't save you".
And that's true, unless FAITH died on the Cross for your sin.

So, "dead faith" is not dead salvation, as Faith can't save you, James just told you.

Its really just a very simple understanding..

There is SALVATION< that is is Christ on the Cross , 2000 yrs ago..
He IS Salvation.........its not something we do...its something HE DID, that we receive, as "the GIFT of Salvation".
Once you have it, you become a Son/Daughter of God.
So, that is GOD's PART, not yours.

What is your part.

You are now SAVED.
So, you are now a disciple. And this is Discipleship, which is not SALVATION.
Discipleship is what you do, because you are already saved.
You are to "present your body, as a living sacrifice"....not to BE saved, and not to try to stay saved, but because= you ARE Saved.

 

[GEN2REV]

As far as OSAS goes, the elusive part about it for me is the dividing line in a person where they won't go back to unbelief no matter what. I'm not convinced that being born again is the exact line.

In all your extensive studies of Scripture, your standing conclusion is that it's unbelief that causes somebody to lose their salvation?

I mean that is what you believe is the only way someone could lose their acceptance into heaven?

 

[GEN2REV]

I believe your sincerity, thank you. I believe that the simple answer to the OSAS debate is salvation is safe and secure and unmovable for the believing person. As long as you are believing in the blood of Christ and the promise of eternal life you are safely kept in the power of God's kingdom and salvation. Nothing can move you, nothing can displace you, as it was under the old covenant.

What is your justification for verses like these?

James 2:19
Matthew 7:23

You can't possibly believe that the 'Many' who cry 'Lord, Lord' don't believe in God.

And what of the demons who have more certainty in God's existence, and in all that He has done, than the vast majority of Christians throughout history? Will they be there in heaven?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

James is teaching that "faith can't save you".

Faith WITOUT WORKS can't save you. Don't misrepresent what James said. And it's not because works play any role in earning your salvation, but because the faith that justifies, all by itself apart from works, is the faith that works. Even Paul affirms this:

"The only thing that counts (towards justification - see context) is faith expressing itself in love." Galatians 5:6
​

Faith that does not find it's expression in obedience to God's command to love others is not real faith. It's not the kind of faith that justifies. It's that simple.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

What I am saying is: Were we sealed with the Holy Spirit upon being baptized with/in water?
J.

The Book Of Acts talks about Believers That got the Holy Spirit and were in fact “ speaking in tongues” BEFORE they were baptized...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Book Of Acts talks about Believers That got the Holy Spirit and were in fact “ speaking in tongues” BEFORE they were baptized...

But Acts also talks about believers who received the baptism of the Spirit in water baptism. BOTH are true. There is no hard and fast 'rule'. Both can, and do, happen.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

You're not being honest. I have said that the believing person does indeed have eternal life, right now. That's what the scriptures say, so that's the way it is. The problem is your definition of 'eternal'. It doesn't mean you automatically have the life that is eternal forever from this point. It means the life that you are receiving is an everlasting life, as opposed to the 'life' that the old covenant ministry and sacrifice of the Levites gave a person. I know this is probably not going to land with you, but I'm more that happy to help you understand the legitimacy of what I'm saying. The life you receive is what is eternal, not your possession of it (in this life), unless you continue to believe.

I was responding to somebody else....too lazy to look back and see who it was...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In all your extensive studies of Scripture, your standing conclusion is that it's unbelief that causes somebody to lose their salvation?

I mean that is what you believe is the only way someone could lose their acceptance into heaven?

Yes. And because they are in unbelief, they receive the just payment for their sin.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

But Acts also talks about believers who received the baptism of the Spirit in water baptism. BOTH are true. There is no hard and fast 'rule'. Both can, and do, happen.

Peter preached early in Acts that you HAD to be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit , so I figure that was true at that time.....later in Acts, Paul showed that all one had to do was to Believe .....At the end Of Acts , it was agreed upon that Paul was correct....Acts is a book of transition and most readers stop at Acts 2:8...... big mistake....you gotta finish the Book....Peter Taught what He was told to preach and Paul taught as he was told..... God’s Program changed....With Peter and the other early disciples , Salvation was all about WHO Jesus WAS....Later, with Paul ,Salvation was All about what Jesus “DID”......

 

[BloodBought 1953]

You're not being honest. I have said that the believing person does indeed have eternal life, right now. That's what the scriptures say, so that's the way it is. The problem is your definition of 'eternal'. It doesn't mean you automatically have the life that is eternal forever from this point. It means the life that you are receiving is an everlasting life, as opposed to the 'life' that the old covenant ministry and sacrifice of the Levites gave a person. I know this is probably not going to land with you, but I'm more that happy to help you understand the legitimacy of what I'm saying. The life you receive is what is eternal, not your possession of it (in this life), unless you continue to believe.

Well, you got at least “ ONE” thing right—- it did not “ land” with me ....lol....go ahead and make your case....I’m not “ stiff- necked” about too many things....

 

[Johann]

he Book Of Acts talks about Believers That got the Holy Spirit and were in fact “ speaking in tongues” BEFORE they were baptized...

..and now, after the resurrection of Christ Jesus?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Yes. And because they are in unbelief, they receive the just payment for their sin.

I thought that “ Jesus” received the just Payment for our Sins.... Any man that exists in Unbelief for his entire life is Lost for sure.....a True Born-Again Believer at one time , if he makes a VERY SERIOUS “ Stumble” into Unbelief has fallen into a terrible Sin (and I am sure that that is rare and may not even be possible) , but theoretically speaking, that guys sin would+be covered, because at the instant he truly Believed, Jesus said that he had ALREADY passed from Death unto Life and NOTHING could cause him to be “ condemned”..... I have to assume that “ Nothing” really means NOTHING ( or did Jesus kinda “Slip-Up” .....He just didn’t Foresee this scenario ever taking place)

 

[BloodBought 1953]

..and now, after the resurrection of Christ Jesus?

This side of the Resurrection, after Jesus revealed the “ Mystery”to Paul that nobody else, including the Disciples ever knew about, the Plan Of Salvation is to simply BELIEVE the Gospel That is Found In 1Cor15:1-4..... Paul refers to it three times as “ His” Gospel and he declares in Romans that we will be judged by God according to “ his Gospel” —- THAT is the Gospel That Saves today....you will answer to God about it—— God's gonna ask you, “ What did you do with “Paul’s Gospel” —- the One Given to him by my Son....Did you REST in it and it ALONE or did you ADD to it as I warned everyone NOT to? If you ADDED to Paul’s Gospel you were “ Severed “ from Christ and “ Fell from Grace”.....All you guys out there that say “ Jesus Saves—- BUT!” Had better pray that “ Falling from Grace “ is not Tantamount to Damnation..... many say it is....

If that turns out to be True , remember what I told you here as you get carted off to Hell—- That Old Hymn had it right all along ! It really WAS Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus....

 

[Johann]

remember what I told you here as you get carted off to Hell—

What do you mean by this?

 

[GEN2REV]

Yes. And because they are in unbelief, they receive the just payment for their sin.

How many unbelieving Christians, or atheists for that matter, do you know that can perform miracles?

Matthew 7:22

And Jesus said that nobody in unbelief can cast out demons.

Your response?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

How many unbelieving Christians, or atheists for that matter, do you know that can perform miracles?

Matthew 7:22

And Jesus said that nobody in unbelief can cast out demons.

Your response?

Well, that's a good question, and it addresses the very reason I can't define the line between the person who can't/won't go back to unbelief and the person who can go back to unbelief. I'm not convinced being born again is that line.

My wife, whom I love dearly and pray for constantly received Christ in salvation at the same time I did. We were both baptized in the Holy Spirit. She received a stunning genuine gift of the Spirit, and me, well, not sure what happened, lol, but I digress. But she, by her own admission, doesn't believe anymore. So, was she saved as evidenced by her gift, and lost her salvation? Or did she not really get saved but God gave her a legitimate gift of the Spirit anyway?

There is the account in the NT of Ananias the High Priest who prophesied in a gift of the Spirit by virtue of his calling, not by virtue of having believed in Christ. But on the other hand, Paul does talk about the gifts being distributed to the body of Christ, meaning of course, saved people. So I don't know what exactly to make of the people in Matthew 7 operating in legitimate gifts of the Spirit, yet not belonging to Christ. Perhaps they are working false miracles. I don't know. I honestly don't think them being believers in Christ and them being rejected by Christ is an option. One thing's for sure though; they are guilty of not living in obedience to Christ. That to me tells me they are not real believers. And so it's just a question of whether or not their gifts are for real. Are they? I don't know.

 

[GEN2REV]

Well, that's a good question, and it addresses the very reason I can't define the line between the person who can't/won't go back to unbelief and the person who can go back to unbelief. I'm not convinced being born again is that line.

My wife, whom I love dearly and pray for constantly received Christ in salvation at the same time I did. We were both baptized in the Holy Spirit. She received a stunning genuine gift of the Spirit, and me, well, not sure what happened, lol, but I digress. But she, by her own admission, doesn't believe anymore. So, was she saved as evidenced by her gift, and lost her salvation? Or did she not really get saved but God gave her a legitimate gift of the Spirit anyway?

There is the account in the NT of Ananias the High Priest who prophesied in a gift of the Spirit by virtue of his calling, not by virtue of having believed in Christ. But on the other hand, Paul does talk about the gifts being distributed to the body of Christ, meaning of course, saved people. So I don't know what exactly to make of the people in Matthew 7 operating in legitimate gifts of the Spirit, yet not belonging to Christ. Perhaps they are working false miracles. I don't know. I honestly don't think them being believers in Christ and them being rejected by Christ is an option. One thing's for sure though; they are guilty of not living in obedience to Christ. That to me tells me they are not real believers. And so it's just a question of whether or not their gifts are for real. Are they? I don't know.

Taken in a scientific-like perspective, where a scientist must consider all data and include it in the equation in order to come to an accurate, truthful, real-world conclusion about the given experiment or topic of study, it sounds to me more like you are choosing to ignore known data and not include it in the equation than not understanding all of the data as it exists, or is presented.

Here's the data you admit to having:

A. The Bible shows, in multiple ways, that there are some who are doing things that can only be done by believers who are ultimately rejected.
B. The Bible tells us, through Jesus' own words, that people are not capable of doing these things unless they are believers; unless they have the Power of God working in and through them via the Holy Spirit.
C. The Bible clearly makes the case that these are believers who are doing these things.

Here are your pre-existing beliefs:

A. You believe in OSAS; nobody can ever lose their salvation.
B. You believe your wife has completely lost all her faith (belief).

Therefore, rather than believing the data you clearly see provided in Scripture, you are making a decision (consciously/unconsciously) to ignore what the Bible says and refuse to believe that a believer can be rejected by God.

In that case, it matters not that your wife lost her faith because there is evidence in Scripture that even those with faith can be rejected for living a life of sin; that is a life outside of the Commandments of God - even believers.

Again, even the demons believe, more so than any human ever could, and you can rest assured they will not be in heaven.
James 2:19

 

[Ferris Bueller]

A. The Bible shows, in multiple ways, that there are some who are doing things that can only be done by believers who are ultimately rejected.
B. The Bible tells us, through Jesus' own words, that people are not capable of doing these things unless they are believers; unless they have the Power of God working in and through them via the Holy Spirit.
C. The Bible clearly makes the case that these are believers who are doing these things.

You left out the piece of data I provided about non-believers having spiritual gifts by virtue of their office at this very same time that these people in Matthew 7 are operating in spiritual gifts. That's a very important piece of data. You left it out.