This really grabbed me today!

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face2face

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Now you are simply being disingenuous.

It may feel that way but my intentions are genuine.

John 1:1 does two things: (1) it proclaims the deity of Christ

You see even this is an assumption on your part.

Why did John use Logos in place of Jesus which of course he well could have done?

The word “logos” simply means “word” either spoken, written or thought but can also mean something more abstract, like “reason”. Was the literal creation in the Logos of God? well yes you must say, but what of the spiritual creation which is in Christ Jesus? You also must agree and say yes! You need to allow the Apostle John to use Logos naturally, without imposing theological (trinitarian) meanings on his text.

Read Proverbs 8, with all its language of personified wisdom. It's commonly believed the natural reading John uses is most likely in his in mind when he speaks of the logos as being “with God… in the beginning.”

You must also admit, it's unlikely John had truine dogma in his mind, otherwise you would have your "3 in 1" passage, but as you go on to say, even forcing it upon John 1 it's still incomplete, which causes you great doubt as this section of Scripture is considered the knock out punch, the lay down mesire, but in a truth it's not that at all - in fact, I think its one of the weakest sections of scripture to force the trinity on. The HS is a real problem for you theologically speaking. It's just never where you want it to be and there is good reason for that also, but I wont go into that now.

and (2) it establishes that there are AT LEAST two persons in the Godhead.

Again, I must respectfully disagree - traditionally Trinitarian translators have referred to the logos as “he” in John 1:1‐3, but as many understand even this is tenuous at best. I wont bore you with the grammatical genders but when you add all the sub-tractors from this text, you are left with no confidence that John had truine theology in mind.

Then Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 complete the Trinity, so don't tell me there are no Scriptures to support the Trinity. That is another lie of the devil.

I have no issue with the baptismal formula, even though many bring into question. Once again, this text holds no insight into persons, relationships or deity hierarchy which is well established in 1 Corinthians 11:3.

And wow, you quoting 1 John 5:7 is courageous to say the lest! If we were in the 18th century you might have a chance of using this text to support your Trinity, but scholars agree this was inserted in or around the 4th century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, you are the first person in years to trot that verse out...best to leave that one in the very questionable folder ;)

So, it's a weak position you have, especially when you align all the contradictions the Trinity forces upon the Word of God from cover to cover. It cannot be reconciled which is why we are having these friendly little chats. Not so friendly in other threads though.

F2F
 
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Johann

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So, Jesus can be all those things without being "Yahweh".
Unless you do word studies in the original languages, you will miss vital information that will lead you down the wrong path.
You can only be led if you want to be. But what if its you guys who are being misled?
Amazing to what great length you would go to rewrite scriptures to suit your Arian or Unitarian viewpoint.
J.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Nope, what you are doing is strengthening that the D'var of JHVH is true and you want to rewrite it.

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Joh_9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Pro_30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

J.
Now all I am getting is lame excuses and scripture that has nothing to do with Jesus being God....and in archaic English to boot....do you speak like that to the people in your life Johann? Neither does God.....he speaks the same language as his worshippers do, no matter what nation they find themselves in. He speaks in a language they all understand, not some outdated excuse for a translation that has been proven so many times to be in error.

If you cannot find a single verse where either Yahweh or his Christ admit that they are part of a triune godhead, then you have nothing of value to tell anyone.
 

face2face

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@Aunty Jane I've had that same conversation with Johann in another thread, so it comes as no surprise that you are picking up on the same issues. Misquoting Scripture, AV dated english, Inserting random youtubes and copy and pasting commentaries which offer no relevance at all to the discussion at hand. Next comes the labels and condemnatory comments, which all lead to a position of willful ignorance. Excuse me for calling it was it is, but I've had months of it in other threads and its a travesty he thinks he can continue the same approach and get away with it here. Time @Johann to look afresh at the text with renewed eyes and behold its shinning truth. Back to the wilderness to be taught of him. Galatians 2:1
 
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Johann

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Now all I am getting is lame excuses and scripture that has nothing to do with Jesus being God....and in archaic English to boot....do you speak like that to the people in your life Johann? Neither does God.....he speaks the same language as his worshippers do, no matter what nation they find themselves in. He speaks in a language they all understand, not some outdated excuse for a translation that has been proven so many times to be in error.

If you cannot find a single verse where either Yahweh or his Christ admit that they are part of a triune godhead, then you have nothing of value to tell anyone.
The Trinitarian concept did not begin with Christianity, for starters...


Hear. O Israel. the LORD our God, the LORD IS ONE. Deuteronomy 6:4

TRIUNITY IN TANAKH (Old Testament)

While it is universally admitted by both Jews and Christians that God is One and that there is no one beside Him, we are also compelled to acknowledge that the triunity of God is clearly taught in the Torah, the Prophets, and in the Writings --- that is in the whole Tanakh, the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament, & the New Testament. Not only in the Tanakh but also in the Talmudical & Rabbinical writings this concept is well known. Space does not permit us to present proofs from all the sources in this short article. Here we present just a few challenging proofs:

THE TORAH: When God (Elohim) create the world He wanted to make absolutely clear to His creation that He is not some abstract mathematical unitarian principle with no analogy in all creation, as some of our philosophers tried to present Him under Aristotelian influence. Instead we read in the holy Torah these words:

And (Elohim) said. Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
& over all the earth. Genesis 1:26

Elohim made man, a being composed of a triunity --- body, soul and spirit, in the image of God;
and to make this more clear God reveals Himself in His plural form of Elohim and says,

"Let us make man."

Even those of our rabbis who do not accept as yet the triunity of God, realize that this verse is clear support for such teaching. Thus in Midrash Rabbah on Genesis we find the following comments on the verse: Rabbi Samuel bar Nahman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah; writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this Verse which says, "And Elohim said let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, Master of the Universe why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the triunity of God). God answered Moses, You write and whoever wants to err let him err.

But surely God did not make Moses to write the whole Scriptures in order to make people err. but rather to show them the right way and the right revelation, namely that the One God is a triune God who calls Himself Elohim and who says. Let us make man.

THE PROPHETS: There are many Scripture verses which show clearly that God manifested Himself also as the Word by which He created heaven and earth and by which He leads and directs creation. He also manifested Himself as the Ruakh Hakodesh, the Holy Spirit, who inspired the prophets of God and who did mighty miracles through the great judges of Israel, Gideon, Samson, and David. We want to point out one Scripture which compels us to admit the triunity of God. Isaiah the prophet speaks in the name of God and says:

Come near unto me. hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time that it was,there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isaiah 48:16



Here God calls the people to come to Him, but He is sent by the Lord GOD and His Spirit. Exactly the same teaching as we have found in the Torah. we find also in the teachings of God's prophets. How else can it be? The same God who commanded Moses to manifest His triunitarian nature commands also the Hebrew Prophets to do the same.



THE WRITINGS: Very clearly we find the same teaching about God in the Psalms and in the other writings of the Hebrew Scriptures. We read in Psalm 2 where the Holy Spirit, the Ruakh Hakodesh, speaks through David and says:

I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son:

this day have I begotten thee. Psalm 2:7

Here is the Holy Spirit speaking through David and instructing David, that the LORD, which is in Hebrew the ineffable name of Jehovah (which we pronounce as Adonai, has a Son who is begotten of God in a most supernatural way. Maybe King David himself did not well understand the words that he was commanded to write by the Holy Spirit; but as Moses and Isaiah, he obeyed. Be wrote this down for us so that there be no misunderstanding. God who is almighty manifests Himself as a triunity, leaving us no doubt as to His nature.

IS TRINITY JEWISH?

But is such a concept Jewish? Is it not some Gentile or pagan concept that has somehow crept into our Holy Scriptures as some extreme liberalists would like to tell us? No, this was and still is a Jewish conception of God creating and dealing with His creation and His people Israel in a triune way. This quotation bears it out: Exodus 19 starts with the words, "In the third month." This is explained by the words of Proverbs 22:20, "Have I not written to thee excellent (Hebrew, threefold) things in counsels and knowledge." On this Rabbi Joshua bar Nehemiah said that this is the Torah whose letters are threefold, alf, bet, g(i)ml, and everything is a Trinity: The Torah is Trinitarian, for it is composed of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The Mishna (talmudical learning) is a trinity composed of Talmud (learning) halakhot (daily Jewish laws) and haggadot (historical items). The mediator consisted of a trinity of Miriam, Moses, & Aaron. Prayers are a trinity of morning, afternoon, and evening prayers. Israel is a trinity consisting of priests, Levites and Israelites. The name Moses in Hebrew consists of three letters. He is of the tribe of Levi, which again is in the Hebrew three letters. from the seed of the Patriarchs who are a trinity of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; in the third month which is Sivan, after Nisan & Iyar on mount Sin whose letters are three as it is written. "And they rested in the wilderness of Sin.".(Midrash Tanhuma on Exodus 19)

If, according to our rabbis', God has made everything and arranged everything in a Trinitarian way. then it must also be Jewish and biblical to know that God, Himself is a Trinity. This He is and has manifested Himself as the Savior, Messiah, and Son of God in the person of the Lord Jesus, the Messiah. He then sent down the Holy Spirit, the Ruakh Hakodesh, on the Disciples in the third month, of the Feast of Shavuot, the feast of perfection, celebrated after counting seven times seven.

TRINITY AND COMMON SENSE

But. can three be one? Does not common sense rebel against such a statement? Must we not state categorically that God is either One or Three? Not so. As a matter of fact everything you come in contact with is not a mathematical concept of one, but usually an item composed of a trinity. The ancient Greek philosopher reasoned out the theory of atoms by simply watching a black cow, eating green grass, and then giving white milk. All things are composed of millions and billions of atoms; but the atom itself is a trinity of a proton, electron and nucleus. Perhaps we could best express it in the words of Dr. Henry Heydt:

In Romans 1:20 Paul uses the creation of the cosmos as demonstrating this Godhead (theiotes]. The universe ... is an absolute triunity of space, time, and matter. Each of these in turn is an absolute triunity. Space consists of length, breadth, and depth or height: time is future, present, and past; matter is energy, motion, and phenomena. Here we have not merely an illustration of three in one --- as in the case of light, heat, and ultra-violet rays of the sunbeam, or the manifestation of H2O as liquid, ice, and steam --- but an absolute trinity composed of three absolute triunities.

WHAT IS THE MEANING TO YOU ?

We now have only to answer the question. "What does it all matter?" The answer is that it matters very much. It proves the truth of God's Word. The most important thing is, what the Jewish Messiah Jesus (Yeshua) said, "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Do you want peace in your heart & peace with your Creator? Receive this gift of God; confess your sins and believe in God's Son, the Korban (sacrifice) for your sins. Then you will be saved & have perfect peace in your heart. "But as many as received him to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12)

https://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html#:~:text=The  Trinity  Is  Jewish

J.
 
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Johann

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Again, I must respectfully disagree - traditionally Trinitarian translators have referred to the logos as “he” in John 1:1‐3, but as many understand even this is tenuous at best. I wont bore you with the grammatical genders but when you add all the sub-tractors from this text, you are left with no confidence that John had truine theology in mind.
You are running hither and thither to see who says what.
I have nothing to prove to you.
Like I have said, always three steps ahead of you, and a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
You don't read "commentaries?"
So why read the NET bible jammed packed with commentaries?
The Triune Godhead, and Godhead is IN the scriptures did not start with Christianity, to begin with.


THEY’RE ALL THERE, THE ENTIRE TIME, ALL THROUGH THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES
The word “trinity” cannot be found in the Bible, but the truth is that the three of them have been there together all the way along.
Genesis tells us that God created the heavens and the earth by his word. John 1 tells us that the Word is Yeshua – that he was with God and was God from the get go, right there at creation. We also see the third person of the trinity, the Holy Spirit, hovering over the waters in the second verse of the Bible. Not sure about this? The first words of the Bible in Hebrew are בראשית ברא אלוהים – In the beginning, God created (or “in the beginning, created God…”, because that’s the way Hebrew sentences are structured). The word for God is Elohim. This word Elohim, very interestingly, is plural. Still not convinced? The decision to create humanity is made. “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”, says the plural God, in plural.
Later on we see hints of Yeshua appearing as “The Angel of the Lord”, which could simply be one of God’s many angels, except that those who encounter this one a) identify him as The Lord himself, and b) worship him.

There is no way that an angel of God – even a top level angel – would accept worship that belongs to God alone.

If you want to see what I mean, see what happens when “The Angel of the Lord” turns up to visit Hagar in Genesis 16 and 21, Abraham in chapter 18, and the One who stops him killing Isaac in 22:11, look at the interaction between Samson’s parents and the Angel of the Lord in Judges 13, and consider who the fourth person was in the fiery furnace that Daniel’s three friends were rescued from. As you ponder the texts and the dialogues, look carefully at the way people address this angel, at the way he refers to himself, and you will see that there is something divine going on here.
This angel speaks as if he is God, and people speak as if they have encountered God.
Because he is. And they have.
We also learn of the third person, the Holy Spirit, very much active in his own right in the Tenach – falling upon and anointing people with power to prophesy and act to accomplish God’s will. He empowers the artisans who make the tabernacle, falls upon Saul in 1 Samuel 10, and is spoken of by David in the Psalms and the prophets (“The Spirit of the sovereign Lord is upon me, for he has anointed me…” Isaiah 61). He appears many times throughout the scriptures, helping and enabling people to do the will of God.
We even see all three of them together in this verse:

“Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this:
From the beginning I have not spoken in secret;
from the time that it was, there am I;
and now the Lord GOD has sent me, and His Spirit.”
(Isaiah 48:16)

There they all are – all three of them together. The Lord God (Father), the One who he sent, who was with him from the beginning (Yeshua) and His Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament.
God repeatedly promises that he would come and live among them, in words that bewilder the mind if you are not ready to accept the deity of Yeshua. He says,

“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares the Lord.
And many nations shall join themselves to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people.
And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you.” (Zechariah 2:10-11)

Yes, it was always God’s intention to come and live among us as Yeshua. And you can see the sameness yet separateness in these verses – he speaks as God himself, yet tells us that the Lord of Hosts has sent him.
We also see the God’s Son mentioned several times in the Tenach (Jewish Scriptures):

Psalm 2:2 –
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Proverbs 30:4 –
Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name?
Surely you know!

Daniel 7:13 –
and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

INCOMPREHENSIBLE, BUT TRUE
So although this idea seems alien to most Jewish people (and frankly, rather bewildering to most believers) a careful study of the Scriptures shows us that Yeshua did not suddenly appear two thousand years ago. As he says of himself; “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

The Trinity: Easy As 1, 2, 3? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

Joh_8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Joh_10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

J.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Every English translation says the same thing, and The NET Bible even says "and the Word was FULLY God". This verse does not need any exegesis since the meaning is plain and clear.

So what did the New World Translation (NWT) of the JWs do to this verse (which is more than sufficient to establish the deity of Christ)? The NWT is accessible online for anyone to verify what I have posted below.

New World Translation

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Now think about that. "a god" means that there are many false gods out there and Jesus (the Word) is one of those false gods, since Christians believe that there is only one true God.

So for Aunty Jane to claim that there is not a single verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is God is a plainly blatant lie, and that lie is from the devil. It was the devil who came to Christ and said "If thou be the Son of God..." (and we all know that the Son of God is in fact God from John 1:1).
Read along with me in the Greek Enoch.....it was the language of the Bible and since the Bible was not written in archaic English, its time that tired old KJV was put back on the shelf with all the other antiques.

What does John 1:1 say in the language of Jesus' day.....?
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

"In the beginning"...don't we have to ask "the beginning of what"? The eternal God had no "beginning", but Jesus said that he was the "beginning of God's creation" in Revelation 3:14. So there it is....

"The Logos" (which can mean the written word" of God, or it can mean one who speaks for God) so, were there times when angels spoke for God? Yes. At Mamre three angels came to Abraham to tell him about the son Sarah would bear to him, (Genesis 18) and two of them went on to Sodom to rescue Abraham's nephew Lot and his family. The one who spoke to Abraham was called Yahweh. But was he God? Since John tells us that "no man has ever seen God", (John 1:18) it must have been one who spoke on his behalf. The title "Logos" can mean a spokesman.
Moses at the burning bush was spoken to as if it was Yahweh speaking, but the scripture clearly states that it was an angel. (Exodus 3:2)

So the Logos was with "ho theos"......can God be "with" himself? And "ho theos" in English is "THE God" which is the only way the Greeks had to identify the God of Israel who at that time, was not called by his name. The definite article was used to single out "THE God" of the Jews, but "theos" on its own did not necessarily mean Yahweh. If God himself called human judges "gods" because of their divine authority to act on his behalf, then why not his son? (John 10:31-36)

Strongs primary definition of the word "theos" is..."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities"....so Jesus can be "a god" if the definite article is missing...which it is with the second mention of "theos". So he is 'divine' and 'God-like'...but he is not Yahweh. No scripture says so, and if there was one you would have offered it by now......if you rely on John 1:1 to prove your trinity....there is no way that it does.
If John also tells us in the same chapter that "no man has ever seen God"...how many people saw Jesus? (John 1:18)

You are all bluff and bluster Enoch...big on insults and short on knowledge of the scriptures.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Already discussed it in my previous posts.
J.
Every argument has already be debunked Johann....you just demonstrate how little you know about the Bible's overall message and about the very nature of God and his relationship to his "firstborn" son. It isn't we who invented the terminology.....it is God and his son who identify their relationship in terms that humans understand. It isn't rocket science....just simple truth. Father and son.
 

Johann

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Every argument has already be debunked Johann....you just demonstrate how little you know about the Bible's overall message and about the very nature of God and his relationship to his "firstborn" son. It isn't we who invented the terminology.....it is God and his son who identify their relationship in terms that humans understand. It isn't rocket science....just simple truth. Father and son.
You don't debunk me but the scriptures and that's the irony of it.
J.
 
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dhh712

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I wouldn't shallow that pill! Show me a Scripture that suggests we cannot know the Godhead and His Christ? If yours is still a mystery you are yet to know Him and His Son. John 17:3
You didn't understand what I said. We can certainly know God. No one else but the three person's of the Godhead will ever know God exhaustively and completely. To imagine that one can would be to claim that one also is God because then you are claiming to have an infinite understanding, something which no finite person has.
 

Johann

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You didn't understand what I said. We can certainly know God. No one else but the three person's of the Godhead will ever know God exhaustively and completely. To imagine that one can would be to claim that one also is God because then you are claiming to have an infinite understanding, something which no finite person has.
I fully concur
J.
 

Brakelite

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Every argument has already be debunked Johann....you just demonstrate how little you know about the Bible's overall message and about the very nature of God and his relationship to his "firstborn" son. It isn't we who invented the terminology.....it is God and his son who identify their relationship in terms that humans understand. It isn't rocket science....just simple truth. Father and son.
Your claim that Jesus is a created angel reveals your denial of the Father and Son. Monogenes, which is a reference to the pre-incarnate Christ, does not, cannot, refer to a created being. You rubbish the KJV because of what you term archaic English, and pretend to understand koine Greek, older than English by 1500 years better than English?
 
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Aunty Jane

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You don't debunk me but the scriptures and that's the irony of it.
J.
Its your interpretation of the scriptures that has been debunked, not the scriptures themselves, which convey one truth, not many.
 

Johann

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Your claim that Jesus is a created angel reveals your denial of the Father and Son. Monogenes, which is a reference to the pre-incarnate Christ, does not, cannot, there to a created being. You rubbish the KJV because of what you term archaic English, and pretend to understand koine Greek, older than English by 1500 years better than English?
There is something horrendously wrong with the "redefining" of the written word from certain people claiming to be Christians @Brakelite or is this a worldwide phenomena?
J.
 

face2face

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You didn't understand what I said. We can certainly know God. No one else but the three person's of the Godhead will ever know God exhaustively and completely. To imagine that one can would be to claim that one also is God because then you are claiming to have an infinite understanding, something which no finite person has.
No I understood you perfectly.
 

Aunty Jane

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Your claim that Jesus is a created angel reveals your denial of the Father and Son. Monogenes, which is a reference to the pre-incarnate Christ, does not, cannot, there to a created being.
Seriously? Paul says Jesus is created and so does Jesus himself.....
Jesus said that he was "the beginning of God's creation"...that is a direct statement. (Revelation 3:14)
Paul at Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is "the firstborn of all CREATION"....another direct statement. Why can't he be what the Bible clearly says he is? Who said he had to be God to redeem mankind?

No one is "denying Father and son"....we are just sticking to what the Bible actually says rather than what trinitarians (or binitarians) want it to say. Jesus is never once said to be in any way equal with his God and Father.
Even in heaven, the Father is still his God. (Revelation 3:12) How can God worship an equal part of himself....?

"Monogenes" is not a special term that means "uncreated"....it is a word that refers to an "only child"..."one of its kind". . It was the word used for the "only son" of a widow who was resurrected by Jesus. (Luke 7:12) It was Jairus' only daughter whom Jesus also resurrected, and she was referred to as "monogenes" as well. (Luke 8:42) Where do you get the idea that it means something different with regard to God's created son?
Tell me why you believe he has to be God? He was sent by his Father to give his life for mankind....if he was God, then he was an immortal which means he could not die. Did Jesus die?

You rubbish the KJV because of what you term archaic English, and pretend to understand koine Greek, older than English by 1500 years better than English?
I rubbish the KJV because it is not written in the language of today. Koine Greek was the language of the day in the first century and the Bible was written so that Greek speaking Jews could read it and understand it. The Septuagint was most likely used by the apostles.
Why use a Bible that the average person cannot read with understanding? Language changes over time and the KJV is a prime example.

1 Corinthians 14:8-9...Paul wrote...
"For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air." (NASB)
Who speaks archaic English anymore? The KJV would be the last Bible I would ever recommend for study simply because its like a foreign language to most people.....and it might as well be.
Greek to English Interlinear publications are available online...its not a difficult thing to look up whatever you want, to check the scriptures for yourself. Maybe you should try it some time....
 
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Johann

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Its your interpretation of the scriptures that has been debunked, not the scriptures themselves, which convey one truth, not many.
You do realize what Deism and Gnosticism is?
I shudder when I quote scriptures knowing I am going to give an account of every word, thought and deed.
Every morning I pray for guidance and direction on how to use the scriptures to bring the others TO the living Christ Jesus and not me and my "sophistry"
Your eisegesis in the Koine Greek on John 1:1 is blasphemous to say it bluntly.

(OJB) BESURAS HAGEULAH ACCORDING TO YOCHANAN Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB.

Our Jewish brothers and sisters have a much more deeper understanding on the Dvar than you do.


In the beginning (en archēi). Archē is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Gen_1:1. But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing.
Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).
Robertson.


ην
G2258
V-IXI-3S
εἰμί
I was....Imperfect Tense, you know what a Imperfect means, don't you?

Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.


εσμεν
G2070
V-PXI-1P
εἰμί
we are...esmen,
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Present
Voice: no voice stated
Mood: Indicative
Person: first [we]
Number: Plural

How much plainer can that be?!

It is the simplicity of the good news that confounds the wise.

J.
 
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face2face

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I have nothing to prove to you.
That's been the problem J. for the duration of our exchange. You don't have the tools to prove your beliefs which is why you have misquoted so many passages. I will bide my time and watch closely to see if you do it again. It's that accountable thing we spoke about.