This really grabbed me today!

[Johann]

Hi @L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d What we indeed need is proper exegesis of the Word, as led of the Spirit of God, rather than eisegesis which is reading opinions and traditions into the Word!

There are those who read the scriptures, nothing wrong with that, and there are those who study, nothing wrong with that.


The Jews in the Writings of Origin
THE JEWS

In chapter two we noticed that Origen was in good contact with some Jewish leaders. In the course of his biblical studies Origen found it advisable to become acquainted with the leaders of Jewish thought in Alexandria. He mentions those whom he consulted, and he also makes use of Jewish traditions in expounding the Scriptures. They helped him also in learning their literal commentaries on the Old Testament and Hebrew.

R. Cadiou says,

He had no intention of engaging in controversy with them, nor did he propose to adopt their methods of exegesis. His approach to them shows that an author does not always borrow from his contemporaries what is in harmony with his own type of mind. In spite of his own interest in the allegorical method he did not go to the rabbis for any lessons in its use. He sought from them something he himself lacked: a literal or literary commentary of the Bible.

MOSES’ LAW

In a fragment of his Commentary on Romans preserved in the Philocalia, Origen shows great acuity in handling St. Paul’s use of the word "law," ultimately distinguishing six different usages of the word. Origen suggests that the presence or absence of the article can be helpful in distinguishing St. Paul’s two most important usage’s of "law," the use of it to mean the law of Moses and the use of it to mean natural law. Here, and in several other cases, Origen still provides a helpful commentary on Paul’s notoriously obscure use of language.

The School of Alexandria - Origen - Ch 17 - The Jews in the Writings of Origin - CopticChurch.net

J.

 

[Brakelite]

Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων)
Being. Not the simple είναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning. See on Jas_2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers. In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape.

The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character.

Thus it is distinguished from σχῆμα fashion, comprising that which appeals to the senses and which is changeable.

Μορφή form is identified with the essence of a person or thing: σχῆμα fashion is an accident which may change without affecting the form.

For the manner in which this difference is developed in the kindred verbs, see on Mat_17:2.
As applied here to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself. We have no word which can convey this meaning, nor is it possible for us to formulate the reality.

Form inevitably carries with it to us the idea of shape. It is conceivable that the essential personality of God may express itself in a mode apprehensible by the perception of pure spiritual intelligences; but the mode itself is neither apprehensible nor conceivable by human minds.

This mode of expression, this setting of the divine essence, is not identical with the essence itself, but is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression, answering to it in every particular. It is the perfect expression of a perfect essence.

It is not something imposed from without, but something which proceeds from the very depth of the perfect being, and into which that being perfectly unfolds, as light from fire.

To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God. The expression of deity through human nature (Php_2:7) thus has its background in the expression of deity as deity in the eternal ages of God's being.

Whatever the mode of this expression, it marked the being of Christ in the eternity before creation.

As the form of God was identified with the being of God, so Christ, being in the form of God, was identified with the being, nature, and personality of God.


This form, not being identical with the divine essence, but dependent upon it, and necessarily implying it, can be parted with or laid aside. Since Christ is one with God, and therefore pure being, absolute existence, He can exist without the form. This form of God Christ laid aside in His incarnation.

Thought it not robbery to be equal with God (οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ)
Robbery is explained in three ways. 1. A robbing, the act. 2. The thing robbed, a piece of plunder. 3. A prize, a thing to be grasped. Here in the last sense.
Paul does not then say, as A.V., that Christ did not think it robbery to be equal with God: for, 1, that fact goes without. saying in the previous expression, being in the form of God. 2. On this explanation the statement is very awkward.

Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it robbery to be equal with God; but, after which we should naturally expect, on the other hand, claimed and asserted equality: whereas the statement is:

Christ was in the form of God and did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but (instead) emptied Himself. Christ held fast His assertion of divine dignity, but relinquished it. The antithesis is thus entirely destroyed.
Taking the word ἁρπαγμὸν (A.V., robbery) to mean a highly prized possession, we understand Paul to say that Christ, being, before His incarnation, in the form of God, did not regard His divine equality as a prize which was to be grasped at and retained at all hazards, but, on the contrary, laid aside the form of God, and took upon Himself the nature of man.

The emphasis in the passage is upon Christ's humiliation. The fact of His equality with God is stated as a background, in order to throw the circumstances of His incarnation into stronger relief. Hence the peculiar form of Paul's statement Christ's great object was to identify Himself with humanity; not to appear to men as divine but as human. Had He come into the world emphasizing His equality with God, the world would have been amazed, but not saved He did not grasp at this. The rather He counted humanity His prize, and so laid aside the conditions of His preexistent state, and became man.

i think Vincent answers this in an excellent way, indeed a scholar, and not those who think they are scholars.....

Being (huparchōn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of huparchō. In the form of God (en morphēi theou).

Morphē means the essential attributes as shown in the form.

In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.

Short, but powerfully stated by Robertson. A true scholar.


Who] in His pre-existent glory. We have in this passage a N.T. counterpart to the O.T. revelation of Messiah’s “coming to do the will of His God” (Psa_40:6-8, interpreted Heb_10:5).


being] The Greek word slightly indicates that He not only “was,” but “already was,” in a state antecedent to and independent of the action to be described. R.V. margin has “Gr. originally being”; but the American Revisers dissent.

Wonder why the ARV would "dissent?"

in the form of God] The word rendered “form” is morphê. This word, unlike our “form” in its popular meaning, connotes reality along with appearance, or in other words denotes an appearance which is manifestation.

It thus differs from the word (schêma) rendered “fashion” in Php_2:8 below; where see note. See notes on Rom_12:2 in this Series for further remarks on the difference between the two words; and cp. for full discussions, Abp Trench’s Synonyms, under μορφή, and Bp Lightfoot’s Philippians, detached note to ch. 2.


Here then our Redeeming Lord is revealed as so subsisting “in the form of God” that He was what He seemed, and seemed what He was—God. (See further, the next note below, and on Php_2:7.) “Though [morphκ] is not the same as [ousia, essence], yet the possession of the [morphκ] involves participation in the [ousia] also, for [morphκ] implies not the external accidents [only?] but the essential attributes” (Lightfoot).

Clear answer and @Lambano couldn't answer, forgetting the "attributes" Since he approach the scriptures in "a different manner"

Another piece of scholarly work done by scholars from Cambridge.

Hopefully this will shine a little light for those who appreciate and love our Lord and great God Christ Jesus.
J.

Did you read post #146? Interested in your view on Terry's perspective.

 

[Johann]

To the contrary. You are inserting the assumption that despite natural grammar and weird meanings, you are claiming the word begotten does not mean begotten, but created. The angels were created. They were not begotten. Mankind was formed from the dust of the earth, not created, made, but eventually adopted. All children in a sense, but not begotten.
KJV John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
A Son in the highest sense.

Nothing wrong here, Christ Jesus tabernacled


Dwelt (ἐσκήνωσεν)
Literally, tabernacled, fixed, or had His tabernacle: from σκηνή, a tent or tabernacle. The verb is used only by John: in the Gospel only here, and in Rev_7:15; Rev_12:12; Rev_13:6; Rev_21:3.

It occurs in classical writings, as in Xenophon, ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ ἐσκήνου, he pitched his tent in the plain (“Anabasis,” vii., 4, 11). So Plato, arguing against the proposition that the unjust die by the inherent destructive power of evil, says that “injustice which murders others keeps the murderer alive - aye, and unsleeping too; οὕτω πόῤῥω του ὡς ἔοικεν ἐσκήνωται τοῦ θανάσιμος εἶναι, i.e., literally, so far has her tent been spread from being a house of death” (“Republic,” 610).

The figure here is from the Old Testament (Lev_27:11; 2Sa_7:6; Psa_78:67 sqq.; Eze_37:27). The tabernacle was the dwelling-place of Jehovah; the meeting-place of God and Israel.

So the Word came to men in the person of Jesus. As Jehovah adopted for His habitation a dwelling like that of the people in the wilderness, so the Word assumed a community of nature with mankind, an embodiment like that of humanity at large, and became flesh.

“That which was from the beginning, we heard, we saw, we beheld, we handled. Our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ” (1Jn_1:1-3. Compare Php_2:7, Php_2:8).

Some find in the word tabernacle, a temporary structure (see the contrast between σκῆνος, tabernacle, and οἰκοδομή, building, in 2Co_5:1), a suggestion of the transitoriness of our Lord's stay upon earth; which may well be, although the word does not necessarily imply this; for in Rev_21:3, it is said of the heavenly Jerusalem “the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will set up His tabernacle (σκηνώσει) with them.”


Dante alludes to the incarnation in the seventh canto of the “Paradiso:”
- “the human species down below
Lay sick for many centuries in great error,
Till to descend it pleased the Word of God
To where the nature, which from its own Maker
Estranged itself, He joined to Him in person
By the sole act of His eternal love.”
Among us (ἐν ἡμῖν)
In the midst of us. Compare Gen_24:3, Sept., “the Canaanites, with whom I dwell (μεθ' ὧν ἐγὼ οἰκῶ ἐν αὐτοῖς).”

The reference is to the eyewitnesses of our Lord's life. “According as the spectacle presents itself to the mind of the Evangelist, and in the words among us takes the character of the most personal recollection, it becomes in him the object of a delightful contemplation” (Godet).
The following words, as far as and including Father, are parenthetical. The unbroken sentence is: “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
Vincent

J.

 

[Brakelite]

In some cases, this results in viewing historical change as a power in and of itself.

Perhaps, but Seventh Day Adventists, possibly the only genuine historicist denomination, is totally cognizant of the role of sovereign God working among the nations according to His will.

Historicism looks at the whole of Bible prophecy as a sweeping overview of church history, from Pentecost to the end times.

Actually from the time of Genesis to restored Eden, starting with Genesis 3:15. But of the apocalyptic prophecies of Daniel, and John, we see the start as at the time the prophecy is given.

Historicism was especially popular during the Reformation, when it was used to suggest that the Catholic Church was part of the end-times apostasy, with the pope as the Antichrist

The view varied slightly, either the Pope or the papal system. But there conclusions were based on scripture, not as some suggest, their experience.

the seven churches in Revelation 2–3 are symbolic of seven ages of church history, starting with the apostolic church (the church of Ephesus) and ending with the modern-day, lukewarm church (the church of Laodicea).

The messages to those churches however have an application to our own lives and experience. For example, the mention of Jezebel in the letter to the church of Thyatira has it's application to today. Thyatira represents the medieval Catholic church, but as all are aware, that church still lives. In fact, there is a spiritual sense in that all 7 churches still exist today. But Jesus said that the spirit of Elijah would be to the fore just before He comes. A local application with John the Baptist, but a global application with the remnant church of the last days. The spirit of Jezebel is still alive and well in the Catholic Church, with the illicit relationship between church and state.

The “little scroll” given to John in chapter 10 is a picture of the Protestant Reformation. The beasts of chapters 12 and 13 represent Catholicism and the papacy. Other passages in Revelation are linked to the invasion of the Huns, the spread of Islam, and the rise of the modern missionary movement.

There an entire book could be written, and had been written, on those aspects. Not sure I agree with any of those, would have to study a little closer.

Historicism, so popular with the Reformers, remained a dominant perspective on eschatology through the 19th century. However, due to its nebulous interpretation method (no two historicists agree on what symbols go with what historical events) and the fact that John’s original readers could not have understood the book of Revelation in a historicist manner, the historicist view is not widely held today.

Are you aware that both the preterist and futurist hermeneutics were created by Jesuits during the counter reformation? Anything that could take that accusing pointy finger elsewhere eh.

 

[Johann]

The writer of the Book of Hebrews, whom I believe was Paul, opened his epistle with these words...
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:” Hebrews 1:1-3

These three verses are comparable with the first three verses of that which John would write 30 or so years later in his Gospel. John said that the Word was with God and was God; also that by the Word were all things made that were made (John 1:1-3). Paul says that the Son is “the brightness” of God’s “glory” and the “express image” [Gr. χαρακτ ή ρ ] of God’s “person”, also that through Him the worlds were made. If both authors were inspired they must be saying the same thing. In other words, Christ being the “express image” of God’s person must be the equivalent of saying He is God.
Strong’s concordance transliterates the Greek word χαρακτ ή ρ as charakter. It appears that originally this was an engraving tool or a marker (engraver) but later came to be known as the impression or engraving itself. It is from where we derive the word character. This is the only place in the Bible where this word is used. This is why there can be no comparison of usage. As do many scholars, Strong describes this word as meaning an exact impression or precise reproduction of persons or things that are original. An impress in wax is not that which did the impressing. A stamp on a coin is not the die that causes the impress. A footprint in the sand is not the foot that made the print. Each is distinct from the other, but there is the closest of relationships between the original and the impression. Without the original there would not be an image. It is also interesting to note that such an impression is always an integral part of the very substance of which it is impressed (like an impression in wax). It is cut (formed) from the substance but remains a part of it.
The Abingdon Bible Commentary of 1929 (compiled by some 66 professors of biblical exegesis, biblical languages, theology, Christian doctrine and church history etc.) has the following to say with reference to the words “express image” (KJV)
“The word translated ‘very image’ means, literally, the stamp cut by a die, and so the impress made upon a seal; thus the phrase signifies that the essence of the divine nature was stamped on the Person of Christ. He was the ‘impress of God‘s essence.”(Professor H. T Andrews, D.D., The Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929)

So what does it mean to say that Christ is the “express image” (exact impress) of God’s person? In this Scripture (Hebrews 1:3), the Greek word translated “person” is hupostasis.

It is a compound of two other Greek words. These words are hupo meaning literally under (Matthew 5:15, Luke 13:34, Acts 2:5 and Romans 16:20 etc.) and histemi meaning to be stood, stand, standing, set or be established (see Matthew 2:9, 6:5, 18:16, Mark 9:36, John 1:26, and Acts 24:21). We can see therefore that hupostasis means the foundation or under-girding (sub-structure or substance) of cause of being, or, to put it another way, the essential structure of what makes something what it is. Christ therefore is the “express image” (stamp/impress) of the substance/foundation/under-girding of God.

In other words, what God is so is the Son.

In this respect they are one and the same. One though, the Son, is the image. Paul noticeably avoided using words that could make it appear he was saying it was only in outward appearance that Christ was the “express image” of God’s person. One such word is prosopon, meaning the countenance or appearance (i.e. that which is visibly seen, the visage). We can see therefore that the word hupostasis does not refer to exterior appearance. This can be seen even more clearly when we see how the same author uses this word in Hebrews 3:14 “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence [hupostasis] stedfast unto the end” Hebrews 3:14
This “confidence” is the substance of our hope (it is that of which our hope is made, the foundation or under-girding). As Paul explains as he uses this Greek word for the third time in this epistle “Now faith is the substance [hupostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1
The substance/confidence (hupostasis) is the ‘stuff’ of which our hopes are made. It is our faith, the foundation or under-girding of our hopes.

Take note of how William Tyndale translated Hebrews 1:3. His was a 16th century translation into English “Which sonne beynge the brightnes of his glory and very ymage of his substance bearinge vp all thinges with the worde of his power hath in his awne person pourged oure synnes and is sitten on the right honde of the maiestie an hye” Hebrews 1:3 Tyndale’s translation

1525 Tyndale’s translation says that the Son is the “very ymage” of God’s “substance”. This is in contrast to the formulators of the KJV who translated hupostasis as “person”. The earlier translation is much clearer to us today than the KJV. It shows exactly what Paul meant by his use of hupostasis. It is referring to God’s very (inner) being (what God is). It is that which makes God God. It is His substructure. Unfortunately today, when we say person, we simply think of this as the entirety of a human being when in fact it can mean the actual self or personality (inner nature/being) of a human being.

Terry Hill.

Excellent exegesis, @Brakelite asked me to look into this and I find nothing wrong here.
Love the good ol' commentaries, not all, but there are some.
The person is the character/nature of a human.

J.

 

[Johann]

Are you aware that both the preterist and futurist hermeneutics were created by Jesuits during the counter reformation? Anything that could take that accusing pointy finger elsewhere eh.

Not here to accuse @Brakelite, simply stating facts.
J.

 

[Brakelite]

hmm…a clue to what? We should expect counterfeits.

Indeed. And we know the Antichrist is a counterfeit also. Have you ever noticed the similarities between the Antichrist beast of Revelation12:1 and Jesus Himself? I'll highlight a few....
KJV Revelation 13:1-8
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
KJV Matthew 3:16
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:


having seven heads and ten horns,
KJV Revelation 5:6
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb, having seven horns...

And upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy
KJV Revelation 19:12
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.



2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
KJV Matthew 21:23
23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?


3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
KJV Revelation 5:6
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


and his deadly wound was healed:
KJV Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


and all the world wondered after the beast.
KJV Hebrews 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.



4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
KJV John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.


and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
(Jesus, from baptism to Calvary, ministered for 42 months...3 1)2 years.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I think you could find some more... Now the question we need to ask, is who is that beast??

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Indeed. And we know the Antichrist is a counterfeit also. Have you ever noticed the similarities between the Antichrist beast of Revelation12:1 and Jesus Himself? I'll highlight a few....
KJV Revelation 13:1-8
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
KJV Matthew 3:16
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:


having seven heads and ten horns,
KJV Revelation 5:6
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb, having seven horns...

And upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy
KJV Revelation 19:12
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.



2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
KJV Matthew 21:23
23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?


3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
KJV Revelation 5:6
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


and his deadly wound was healed:
KJV Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


and all the world wondered after the beast.
KJV Hebrews 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.



4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
KJV John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.


and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
(Jesus, from baptism to Calvary, ministered for 42 months...3 1)2 years.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I think you could find some more... Now the question we need to ask, is who is that beast??

A counterfeit savior. A counterfeit coalition. A counterfeit God. With counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders. A counterfeit kingdom.

 

[Johann]

Indeed. And we know the Antichrist is a counterfeit also. Have you ever noticed the similarities between the Antichrist beast of Revelation12:1 and Jesus Himself? I'll highlight a few....
KJV Revelation 13:1-8
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
KJV Matthew 3:16
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:


having seven heads and ten horns,
KJV Revelation 5:6
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb, having seven horns...

And upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy
KJV Revelation 19:12
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.



2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
KJV Matthew 21:23
23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?


3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
KJV Revelation 5:6
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


and his deadly wound was healed:
KJV Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


and all the world wondered after the beast.
KJV Hebrews 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.



4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
KJV John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.


and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
(Jesus, from baptism to Calvary, ministered for 42 months...3 1)2 years.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I think you could find some more... Now the question we need to ask, is who is that beast??

The person/system is already long time in existence
J.

 

[farouk]

Isaiah 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

@TLHKAJ Great verse, often especially remembered at Christmas.....

 

[TLHKAJ]

Your claim that Jesus is a created angel reveals your denial of the Father and Son. Monogenes, which is a reference to the pre-incarnate Christ, does not, cannot, there to a created being. You rubbish the KJV because of what you term archaic English, and pretend to understand koine Greek, older than English by 1500 years better than English?

Thank you. This is what I have said for years. It's very plain what is happening here. The spirit of antichrist is rampant, posing as Christianity.

1 John 2:22-26
[22]Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
[23]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
[24]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
[25]And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
[26]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

 

[farouk]

Thank you. This is what I have said for years. It's very plain what is happening here. The spirit of antichrist is rampant, posing as Christianity.

1 John 2:22-26
[22]Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
[23]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
[24]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
[25]And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
[26]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

@TLHKAJ John's First Epistle is very searching and very assuring to the believer also...

 

[Enoch111]

You are all bluff and bluster Enoch...big on insults and short on knowledge of the scriptures.

This is rich, coming from a cultist. The JWs snare unsuspecting souls, and that is the real tragedy. Like the Pharisees, you make your converts twice the children of Hell: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.(Mt 23:15)

 

[farouk]

You didn't understand what I said. We can certainly know God. No one else but the three person's of the Godhead will ever know God exhaustively and completely. To imagine that one can would be to claim that one also is God because then you are claiming to have an infinite understanding, something which no finite person has.

@dhh712 Scripture is full of God in Three Persons.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thank you. This is what I have said for years. It's very plain what is happening here. The spirit of antichrist is rampant, posing as Christianity.

1 John 2:22-26
[22]Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
[23]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
[24]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
[25]And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
[26]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

I think because of your background you do not take outward manners to be the real person at all and do not coddle for fear of hurting feelings but just speak the truth. It’s only just recently that I stopped coddling because I very clearly saw that satan, demons, whoever, were absolutely manipulating peoples flesh and everyone was going around soothing others in the bad behaviors and manipulated outer man, thereby soothing and giving comfort to a very sly enemy. But I won’t do it any more. I don’t care if every person on earth flees from me, I can’t unsee what I have seen and I can’t stop telling the truth. If someone’s flesh is being manipulated, I call it out. I don’t even care if my own brothers, who are still in that coddling, flee me for telling the truth. I just don’t care. Often here lately, I’m not even talking to the person but rather to the devil manipulating their flesh. It makes me so mad that we allow it to go on. I mean, in the world, that coddled and hidden stuff will go on but among us, it has to stop. We have to stop doing it.

 

[Brakelite]

The person/system is already long time in existence
J.

Yes... Another tenet of historicism...1260 years first phase. Second phase now developing.

 

[Heart2Soul]

God is not to be understood, He is to be known.

Much love!

Maybe this should be restated....Proverbs instructs us to seek knowledge, wisdom and understanding of God's Word.
Philippians instructs us to be Christ minded
Romans instructs us to be spiritually minded not carnal....a spiritual mind knows the hidden wisdom of God.
God indeed wants us to understand Him....Hosea says we destroyed for lack of knowledge....whom many reject.

What we cannot do is comprehend His thoughts and why He does what He does because His thoughts and ways are higher than ours.

 

[MatthewG]

H2S has reminded me of the prayer by Paul,

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

why does Paul say this? It has to have meaning!

 

[Brakelite]

Nothing wrong here, Christ Jesus tabernacled


Dwelt (ἐσκήνωσεν)
Literally, tabernacled, fixed, or had His tabernacle: from σκηνή, a tent or tabernacle. The verb is used only by John: in the Gospel only here, and in Rev_7:15; Rev_12:12; Rev_13:6; Rev_21:3.

It occurs in classical writings, as in Xenophon, ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ ἐσκήνου, he pitched his tent in the plain (“Anabasis,” vii., 4, 11). So Plato, arguing against the proposition that the unjust die by the inherent destructive power of evil, says that “injustice which murders others keeps the murderer alive - aye, and unsleeping too; οὕτω πόῤῥω του ὡς ἔοικεν ἐσκήνωται τοῦ θανάσιμος εἶναι, i.e., literally, so far has her tent been spread from being a house of death” (“Republic,” 610).

The figure here is from the Old Testament (Lev_27:11; 2Sa_7:6; Psa_78:67 sqq.; Eze_37:27). The tabernacle was the dwelling-place of Jehovah; the meeting-place of God and Israel.

So the Word came to men in the person of Jesus. As Jehovah adopted for His habitation a dwelling like that of the people in the wilderness, so the Word assumed a community of nature with mankind, an embodiment like that of humanity at large, and became flesh.

“That which was from the beginning, we heard, we saw, we beheld, we handled. Our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ” (1Jn_1:1-3. Compare Php_2:7, Php_2:8).

Some find in the word tabernacle, a temporary structure (see the contrast between σκῆνος, tabernacle, and οἰκοδομή, building, in 2Co_5:1), a suggestion of the transitoriness of our Lord's stay upon earth; which may well be, although the word does not necessarily imply this; for in Rev_21:3, it is said of the heavenly Jerusalem “the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will set up His tabernacle (σκηνώσει) with them.”


Dante alludes to the incarnation in the seventh canto of the “Paradiso:”
- “the human species down below
Lay sick for many centuries in great error,
Till to descend it pleased the Word of God
To where the nature, which from its own Maker
Estranged itself, He joined to Him in person
By the sole act of His eternal love.”
Among us (ἐν ἡμῖν)
In the midst of us. Compare Gen_24:3, Sept., “the Canaanites, with whom I dwell (μεθ' ὧν ἐγὼ οἰκῶ ἐν αὐτοῖς).”

The reference is to the eyewitnesses of our Lord's life. “According as the spectacle presents itself to the mind of the Evangelist, and in the words among us takes the character of the most personal recollection, it becomes in him the object of a delightful contemplation” (Godet).
The following words, as far as and including Father, are parenthetical. The unbroken sentence is: “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
Vincent

J.

Would you agree that the Son is now eternally human, His "body given Him" a permanent dwelling place?

 

[Brakelite]

I think because of your background you do not take outward manners to be the real person at all and do not coddle for fear of hurting feelings but just speak the truth. It’s only just recently that I stopped coddling because I very clearly saw that satan, demons, whoever, were absolutely manipulating peoples flesh and everyone was going around soothing others in the bad behaviors and manipulated outer man, thereby soothing and giving comfort to a very sly enemy. But I won’t do it any more. I don’t care if every person on earth flees from me, I can’t unsee what I have seen and I can’t stop telling the truth. If someone’s flesh is being manipulated, I call it out. I don’t even care if my own brothers, who are still in that coddling, flee me for telling the truth. I just don’t care. Often here lately, I’m not even talking to the person but rather to the devil manipulating their flesh. It makes me so mad that we allow it to go on. I mean, in the world, that coddled and hidden stuff will go on but among us, it has to stop. We have to stop doing it.

Requires lots and lots and lots and lots of discernment to go down that road. Sure, it needs to be done... To call out blatant but sly and subtle heresy, but you don't want to get it wrong and start calling out truth, thinking it a lie. We are all capable off being deceived.