This really grabbed me today!

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face2face

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to get Chochmah, coupled with tevanah..


Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
Job 38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
Job 38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Job 38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
Job 38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
Job 38:38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
Job 38:39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Answer, if you can F2F
J.

Chochmah - from{chacham} to be wise, skilful, prudent
tevanah - ????? (sure you spelt that correctly)
 

Johann

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.was with God in the beginning.

1 John 1:1 This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us).

Can you see how John went further in making the Word of God & the Word of Life interchangeable?

You can see from John letter the word becoming flesh has nothing to do with a pre-existent Jesus physically coming down from Heaven and being born of Mary. I am interested to know why John changed the way he opened this letter clearly showing it was eternal life given to Jesus which is from Heaven and not Christ himself.

It also shows Johns knowledge of Logos = Wisdom = Eternal Life which is clearly taught from Proverbs 8:23 ; Proverbs 8:35

I wonder if false ideas like the Trinity were already festering in the hearts of believers then?

What I know for sure is 1 John 1 spells it out extremely clearly...it was the impersonal "eternal life" which was "with the Father" and it was this life which "became flesh" in a physical body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wonder why it is written; I and the Father [WE ARE] one?
You are doing a terrible job in your eisegesis on Yochanan 1:1
J.
 

face2face

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Wonder why it is written; I and the Father [WE ARE] one?
You are doing a terrible job in your eisegesis on Yochanan 1:1
J.
Because they were/are one J. In mind and purpose - we have already established the meaning of Logos - have you been paying attention?
 

face2face

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chochmah utevuNah
J.
I'm starting to think you're just making words up now.

You mean Tevunah!

and knowledge [daʿat] in every kind of craft! i.e the work of Hiram!

(You need a teacher!)
 

face2face

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No, you are not my teacher.
J.

No, you haven't been paying attention? Or, no, I don't know the meaning of Logos? Or, no, you don't believe God & Jesus were of the same mind (Logos)
 

Johann

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I'm starting to think you're just making words up now.

You mean Tevunah!

and knowledge [daʿat] in every kind of craft! i.e the work of Hiram!

(You need a teacher!)
חָכְמָ֥ה

הלא־חכמה תקרא ותבונה תתן קולה׃
 

face2face

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חָכְמָ֥ה

הלא־חכמה תקרא ותבונה תתן קולה׃

I mean come on J!!!

I have to put up with your copying and pasting commentaries... now you want me to decipher Hebrew?

If there was a point to this I am sure its been well and truly lost now.

Open a good NET or ESV Bible and lets start there shall we?

Maybe then Wisdom will raise her voice for you?
 
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Johann

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Mate, I'm trying, but take a good look at your teaching techniques!
I mean come on J!!!

I have to put up with your copying and pasting commentaries... now you want me to decipher Hebrew?

If there was a point to this I am sure its been well and truly lost now.

Open a good NET or ESV Bible and lets start there shall we?

Maybe then Wisdom will raise her voice for you?

You mean Christ Jesus, sealed with the Ruach haKodesh, THEN I will obtain חָכְמָ֥ה וּ֝תְבוּנָ֗ה?
J.
 

Johann

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Mate, I'm trying, but take a good look at your teaching techniques!
How are you going to know what the Logos is if you are insistent not to use ancient rabbinical resources?


2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

J.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Hmm. You'd think that humanity's fallen nature was attached to the Y-chromosome. :p The statement itself is a head-scratcher, because it ignores the possibility of Mary making a contribution to Jesus's nature. (A question that leads to the Catholic dogma of Mary's immaculate conception.) The line of questioning was about how a divine Christ could relate to us sinners (a key point in atonement theology, if you care about such), and I thought that emphasizing that Christ did not have a sin nature couldn't be your point because it played right into the hand of your opponent. Now, it's on me for misinterpreting your statement as that Jesus could not be fully human because He didn't have a sin-nature (the very question you asked me). To err is human, and to be human is to err. But in my experience observing traditionalists arguing with the modern humanist church (the left-hand ditch, where your opponent is), the common path is to over-emphasize Christ's divinity at expense of His humanity - the Docetic error - as we talked about much earlier in this discussion. My way of probing for clarification may have been rude; I hope it wasn't hurtful.

No. You didn’t hurt me at all. Yes, it was a little rude, but only because you didn’t speak openly and plainly with me for a bit there. Further, you know me and that I do not read or study philosophy or know anything about it. You may not know that I think it’s vain, empty and of the world, but you do know I don’t delve into it (unless you forgot that conversation.) The little I know of it has come from you. I think philosophy is this: 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness.

It’s well crafted arguments that depend on human tradition and the spiritual forces of this world and is designed to take men captive, that’s all it is. And I am told to see to it that no one takes me captive by it because in Christ all the fullness of God lives in bodily form.

I won’t move from this. I do not think there was a speck of sin in my Lord. I do not think He was arrogant or haughty or hateful or spiteful like me. I do not think He was blemished and had to become unblemished like me. Because in Him all the fullness of God lives in bodily form.
 
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Lambano

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No. You didn’t hurt me at all. Yes, it was a little rude, but only because you didn’t speak openly and plainly with me for a bit there.
Hang on to that thought for a bit. There's some things I need to pray about. And if you would, please do say a prayer for me.
 

Heart2Soul

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So you would believe then that Jesus being in the line of Adam and Jesus being a Son of David (Romans 1:3) has no influence at all to the person of Christ today? You must believe Christ to be someone different then?
Your question makes zero sense to what I have said.
How do you connect what you replied to my post?
 

Lambano

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I do not think there was a speck of sin in my Lord. I do not think He was arrogant or haughty or hateful or spiteful like me. I do not think He was blemished and had to become unblemished like me.
I didn't realize that had been alleged by your opponent (but I'll let F2F speak for himself) or by anyone in this thread, and if you think that is what I was saying, I hope you feel guilty about it for at least 45 seconds :p (though it would be my fault for giving you that impression).

My position (non-negotiable) is that Christ's identification with us in dying for our sins in no way requires that He actually experience our sins. But identification with me requires that He be human, like me.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I didn't realize that had been alleged by your opponent (but I'll let F2F speak for himself) or by anyone in this thread, and if you think that is what I was saying, I hope you feel guilty about it for at least 45 seconds :p (though it would be my fault for giving you that impression).

My position (non-negotiable) is that Christ's identification with us in dying for our sins in no way requires that He actually experience our sins. But identification with me requires that He be human, like me.
I’ve started the timer on the stove. I went with one minute.