Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
You keep saying "initial" salvation as if Christ merely "initially" saves us by grace through faith, then after that we do the rest. That is "type 2 works salvation." We are saved by grace through faith initially and finally. (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9) You already admitted that you believe "justified by works" in James 2:24 means that we are accounted as righteous/saved by works. Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists would strongly agree with you.
When it comes to the moral aspect of the Law of Moses, you cannot dissect good works from the Law of Moses. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me which good works a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)
Elsewhere, the apostle Paul stated that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul stated that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so not saved by works does not merely apply to a limited, specific set of works under the Law of Moses, but also to good works in general. In an attempt to "get around" the truth, Roman Catholics also resort to the saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) bogus argument as well.
Then you had better remain sinless 100% of the time according to your logic.
Paul states those who practice such sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is 'descriptive' of the unrighteous. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, we read - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Now notice what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 - Such were (past tense) some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin.
1 John 3:9 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
However, this does not imply sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1)
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Faith not only starts off as belief in Jesus as the Savior, and belief in the gospel, but it also finishes off that way as well. (1 Peter 1:9) From beginning to end, Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)
Obeying the Lord in living a holy life in the process of ongoing sanctification (or what certain theologians call "progressive sanctification") is accomplished "out of" faith and involves growing in grace and reaching spiritual maturity in Christ. We are not saved based on the merits of our obedience/works/holy living which follows having been saved through faith in Christ. That is not saved through faith, but saved by works. In your case it's "type 2 works salvation." It sounds to me like you re-define faith to include works. Roman Catholics do as well. Example below:
A Roman Catholic stated this to me during a discussion on a Christian forum site:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES:
Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass (John 6:53-56)
Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
Everything? Hebrews 11:1 says - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. I once heard LoveGodsWord on CF say that "the gospel is every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." He needed to re-define what the gospel is so that he can "add" works to the gospel in order to accommodate his SDA gospel of "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)
Amen! (Romans 10:17)
It's one thing to define what faith is and it's another thing to accomplish something by or "out of" faith. You mix it all together and the end result is salvation by faith AND WORKS. That is the same error I believed as a Roman Catholic prior to my conversion several years ago. I remember defining faith as "obedience to Christ and not serving sin." At that time, I was not trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. I was trusting in works for salvation and my best efforts to suppress sin in my life, just as you are now. You are trying to save yourself, which is impossible, because God's standard is absolute perfection and only Jesus Christ met that standard. You have not yet placed your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. You need to trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
That my friend IS TRUE . But no lamb would justify sin and no lamb would desire to fit in .
See lambs dont pick and choose what makes us feel good in this world , WE CHOOSE GOD , CHRIST , THE TRUTH OF HIS EVERY WORD .
TO us there is no other choice . FOR GOD has put that love upon our hearts . Frankly this world can keep its pipe dreams .
THE LAMBS have JESUS and OUR END IS REAL REAL GOOD . THIS LIFE , in this LIFE we are warned more than once
WE WONT be loved by this world . And that we will face hardships , betrayals , persecutions , afflictions and tribulations .
BUT GOD IS WITH THE LAMBS and our HOPE is in the LORD .
What is your interpretation of 1 John 1:8?
1 John 1:8 says:
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
There are four interpretations that I am aware of on 1 John 1:8.
Interpretation #1. - 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about the false gnostic belief that denied sin’s existence. A group called “Christian Scientists” believe sin is an illusion and so 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them. In other words, 1 John 1:8 is saying, “If we say that we have no sin [if we do sin], we deceive ourselves and the truth is not us.” Note: This is the view that I hold to (of which I believe is consistent with the context). I believe 1 John 1:8 is a warning to Christians who believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. This would include mailmandan in my opinion because he does not believe sin separates a believer from God because he holds to Once Saved Always Saved. For I believe mailmandan would agree with Gotquestions article on falling away here. In other words, mailmandan is saying that a believer who temporarily goes prodigal into a lifestyle of sin is still saved (Even though believers are generally characterized as not living in habitual sin as a norm). Those who hold to OSAS partially deny sin’s existence. They think they sin in the body, but their sin does not exist on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for all their future sins. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to even the OSAS Christian because they are partially denying sin’s existence. This is why 1 John 1:9 is mentioned next. It gives us the proper way of how to deal with sin. We confess of sin to actually be forgiven of sin (i.e. to maintain our salvation).
Interpretation #2. - 1 John 1:8 is talking about the sin nature of the body that can tempt us in this life (but it does not mean we have to give into this nature and we can crucify the affections and lusts according to Galatians 5:24). Note: This is a view that a fellow brother of mine holds to (although I disagree with this interpretation; For the context is not really talking about the sin nature but sin itself - 1 John 1:10).
Interpretation #3. - 1 John 1:8 is saying that we sin 24/7 and we cannot help but to do so. We are slaves to sin and sin in thought and deed daily many times a day. Note: This view describes the Hyper Grace crowd that blatantly has no regard for any kind of sin. They believe they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and how they live does not matter. They can be a porn addict and be saved. They can be a murderer and be saved, etcetera. This view is wrong for obvious reasons. It would mean that Hitler could have been saved in killing Jews only if he had a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior.
Interpretation #4. - 1 John 1:8 is saying we must sin or stumble into sin on occasion; While the believer strives to not sin, they will always sin this side of Heaven. Note: This view is foggy and unclear because it never really clearly defines what boundary or line that determines if one is truly just stumbling into sin vs. living in deliberate habitual sin. I see this view as a back handed way of sneaking in a little bit of sin that one enjoys to do on occasion. It’s okay for them because they are not doing this sin all the time. But they must ignore Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etcetera. This view is also wrong because it also justifies sin and evil on a smaller scale. This is the view that mailmandan holds to. Do you agree with him?
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
It just means what it says .
The view about sin in the early church was , DONT DO IT , and if one does err , confess and forsake it .
Its real simple really . YEs its also true that many do sin and they justify it , meaning they dont even see it as sin . THAT
is a sure sign one is not born again . And yes the false hyper grace is just that false . JESUS
came to set us free from sin not to live in bondage to it. I mean i served sin big time for years
even when i could lip his name . But i did not know HIM , i did not follow Him , i was not born again . The proof
was my fruits . SEE when GOD truly drew me to saving faith in Christ , HE changed my heart .
Sin became evil to me and the love for truth became sown on my heart . IT was a total change of heart .
A total change in direction . A whole new life a whole new heart . That was the work of the LORD within me .
I did not set my heart to SEEK OUT GOD , RATHER HE PUT IT INTO MY HEART TO SEEK HIM OUT .
I tell us all we owe the LORD EVERYTHING . YES and let the lambs continue in HIM , continue in the grace of GOD .
Continue to hold our faith IN HIM to the end . And beware of sin , beware the flesh , cause sin sure can
harden a heart . IF we have the SPIRIT it also stirs us up to be continually pointing to Christ
to all His teachings , to the truth in that bible . AND it has us to warn any brethren in any error , to repent asap fast .
IT also has us to keep the original pattern JESUS set for the church in dealing with all things and all circumstances .
WE would simply LOVE Christ , God above all, then our brethren as our own self .
ANY LOVE that can cast away some of JESUS teachings , IT COMETH NOT OF GOD , but of the world .
But that does not really answer what view you take on 1 John 1:8, though. As I have shown before, there are four different interpretations on 1 John 1:8. Which one is closer to your viewpoint? I ask this because this will help me to determine where you really stand.
If you say it means we will always sin and we cannot help but to sin, then we believe differently about sin and salvation.
Do you also believe that obedience or living holy is not a part of salvation? Mailmandan believes it is by faith alone. But James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Yes, we are also justified by faith, too (Romans 5:1). But this is not at the expense of living for our Lord in holiness. Mailmandan teaches it is just a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior that saves. But the Bible says that God has chosen you to sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13). The Bible says that if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you shall live (Romans 8:13).
What if a Christian who lived generally holy most of their life had one day looked upon a woman in lust, and then they got hit by a bus and died immediately without having a chance to confess of their sin. Are they saved?
I don’t believe they are because a believer has to confess of sin to be forgiven of it (1 John 1:9).
Granted, a person who first comes to the Lord does not need to confess all their sins obviously. They will just admit that they have sinned before God (in regards to their past life) and they want to turn away from their sins. But the problem with mailmandan’s view on sin is that he thinks 1 John 1:8 is an excuse to always remain in sin this side of Heaven on some level. Sure, he may not condone a habitual practicing axe murdering Christian as being saved, but what about other kinds of sins that the Bible condemns? This is the problem I have with mailmandan’s belief. It makes room for a little bit of sin. In other words, can a believer murder every 10 years and it’s okay because it is not habitual sin? Mailmandan believes we will always sin this side of Heaven because of 1 John 1:8. By this view, he is a slave to sin and he is not set free from it. But Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. So this means that we as Christians have to make sure we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. There is no fear and trembling Mailmandan’s view of salvation. He is on easy street and not in need of worry about his salvation ever. That is not the kind of view of salvation taught in the Bible.
Amigo de christo has not made himself clear on his interpretation on 1 John 1:8, and whether or not holy living is truly required for salvation after one is saved by God’s grace. If he said what he did in defiance of the Catholic Church only, then we are in agreement (Because the Catholic Church has a wrong view of living holy because of their false church traditions). If Amigo disagrees that holy living according to the Bible plays no part in our salvation of any kind after we are saved by God’s grace, then… “No, he did not nail it” because the Bible does not teach you can abide in sin and still be saved on any level (Jude 1:4). Nor does the Bible teach that you can later turn out to be fruitless and be saved (John 15:5-6) (Matthew 3:8) (Matthew 3:10). He that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). Your view does not forsake sin because it says you will always sin this side of Heaven based on a false interpretation of 1 John 1:8. One can preach against sin all they like and make it appear like they should to show that they have been saved (past tense), but that is only an illusion. Salvation is conditional. God does not force believers to be a certain way based upon a one time prayer or decision they made for Jesus Christ (even if it was genuine). While believers are changed in the regeneration, the born again experience does not eliminate a person’s free will, and they are not forced or changed by God to do anything for God. A believer has to continue to choose to cooperate with God.
We are told:
“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).
We are told to:
- Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
- Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
- Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).
Like your stated belief in Faith Alone is contradictory in that you say a genuine saving faith will always produce good works (But those works are not a part of the salvation equation). You contradict yourself. It’s like Gotquestions article on backsliding. They also contradict themselves.
Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org
They say a backsliding Christian is saved while they are living in habitual sin, but then they contradict themselves and say that a saved believer is not characterized by living that way. The deception in this teaching is that one can think they can be saved living in habitual sin all the time.
My guess is you that you buy into eating this kind of garbage taught by Gotquestions.org.
If so, then continue to keep dumpster diving to eat disgusting rubbish like this (to your own destruction). But just know it’s not in the Bible. For the prodigal son when he returned home was told by his father that he was dead, and he is alive AGAIN in Luke 15.
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
I am not sure how your quoting of Romans 8:8-11 undoes what Romans 8:13 says.
Nor do I see how Romans 8:13 or Romans 8:8-11 aligns with your belief that you must always sin this side of Heaven based on a faulty interpretation on 1 John 1:8. Romans 8:6 says to be carnally minded is death. Romans 8:12 says, “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.” Flesh here is in reference to sin. Galatians 5:19 says, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,”; Therefore, your view that teaches that we are debtors to live after the flesh (by your stating that you must always sin this side of Heaven is condemned by Romans 8). For if you live after the flesh, you will die (Romans 8:13). Your very words declare you must live after the flesh until you die.
You said:
Your invented term (or a term you borrowed) sounds all pretty and nice theologically, but you simply are attacking the Bible, and the true saints by the use of this very term. You believe in a sin and still be saved type belief. So I am not sure how your belief is better than what the Bible plainly teaches.
You said:
There are two different forms of sanctification (washing) for the believer.
#1. Believers are sanctified (washed clean) in their Initial Salvation.
(a) Believers are sanctified (cleansed of past sin forever) in their Initial Salvation by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:10).
Note: This is different than the Old Covenant because they had to keep revisiting the same past old sins year after year with animal sacrifices.
(b) Believers are saved in their Initial Salvation by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).
#2. Believers enter a sanctification process to live a holy life in the secondary aspect of salvation by the inward working of all three persons of the Trinity (after they are saved by God’s grace).
(a) For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NKJV).
(b) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (2 Timothy 2:21).
(c) “…even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:25-27).
(d) “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
(e) “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
Important Note: Notice 2 Timothy 2:21. This is not talking about Initial Sanctification just because it uses the past tense word “sanctified.”
I will explain more on Hebrews 10 in my next post.
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@mailmandan
As for Hebrews 10:14:
Reading the context it talks about being perfect in the sense of past sins being forgiven and the purging of our conscience of past sins for good. Meaning, the animal sacrifices could never make one perfect in cleansing of one’s past sins, and in permanently clearing their past conscience on sin because they had to keep revisiting the same sins year after year with animal sacrifices.
Hebrews 10:1-4
“For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”
So this is the reference and context of what is being referred to as “perfected forever” in Hebrews 10:14.
Hebrews 10:14
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
They are forever perfected in the sense of their past sins being forgiven permanently, and in their conscience of their past sins being cleared permanently. They don’t have to keep revisiting those same sins with animal sacrifices year after year.
However, just because one is perfected at one point in time forever does not mean they cannot sin or fall away at a later point in time.
Ezekiel 28:15 says this about Lucifer:
“Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
In other words, Lucifer was created perfect forever in that point in time when he was created. That did not mean Lucifer was not incapable of later committing iniquity (sin) at another point in time of his life.
Also, Hebrews 10:26-29 says:
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
We see in verse 26 that if we willfully sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Which runs contrary to your false belief). In verse 29: It talks about those who trodden under foot the Son of God whereby they were once sanctified have done despite the Spirit of grace.
Verse 30-31 says: “Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Yet there is no fear in your view on sin and salvation. You believe you can sin and still be saved on some level. So there is no fear of God for you.
But Proverbs 1:7 says:
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”
Side Note:
Oh, and you have to be careful with the word “for ever” in the Bible. It does not always mean forever in the way we understand that word. Onesimus was said to have returned back to his master forever (See: Philemon 1:15). Obviously Paul is not saying that Onesimus and his master are immortal and living on the Earth forever. Onesimus did not return to his master forever in the sense of all eternity. It is only in reference to that point in time of his life that he returned to him forever.
As for Hebrews 10:14:
Reading the context it talks about being perfect in the sense of past sins being forgiven and the purging of our conscience of past sins for good. Meaning, the animal sacrifices could never make one perfect in cleansing of one’s past sins, and in permanently clearing their past conscience on sin because they had to keep revisiting the same sins year after year with animal sacrifices.
Hebrews 10:1-4
“For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”
So this is the reference and context of what is being referred to as “perfected forever” in Hebrews 10:14.
Hebrews 10:14
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
They are forever perfected in the sense of their past sins being forgiven permanently, and in their conscience of their past sins being cleared permanently. They don’t have to keep revisiting those same sins with animal sacrifices year after year.
However, just because one is perfected at one point in time forever does not mean they cannot sin or fall away at a later point in time.
Ezekiel 28:15 says this about Lucifer:
“Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
In other words, Lucifer was created perfect forever in that point in time when he was created. That did not mean Lucifer was not incapable of later committing iniquity (sin) at another point in time of his life.
Also, Hebrews 10:26-29 says:
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
We see in verse 26 that if we willfully sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Which runs contrary to your false belief). In verse 29: It talks about those who trodden under foot the Son of God whereby they were once sanctified have done despite the Spirit of grace.
Verse 30-31 says: “Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Yet there is no fear in your view on sin and salvation. You believe you can sin and still be saved on some level. So there is no fear of God for you.
But Proverbs 1:7 says:
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”
Side Note:
Oh, and you have to be careful with the word “for ever” in the Bible. It does not always mean forever in the way we understand that word. Onesimus was said to have returned back to his master forever (See: Philemon 1:15). Obviously Paul is not saying that Onesimus and his master are immortal and living on the Earth forever. Onesimus did not return to his master forever in the sense of all eternity. It is only in reference to that point in time of his life that he returned to him forever.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
So how much obedience/works/holy living does it take "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation? Is it 50% faith in Christ and 50% obedience/works/holy living that saves us? What about 90% faith in Christ and 10% obedience/works/holy living that saves us? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were obedience enough/accomplished enough works/were holy enough so now the Lord will be able to save you? Does God grade on a curve? His standard is absolute perfection. Have you measured up? (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23)
Salvation is by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Acts 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 1 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:15 etc..).
James says we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:24) and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
Paul simply said justified by faith "apart from additions or modifications" in Romans 5:1, hence faith alone. Paul did not say faith and works in Romans 5:1, but simply faith. In Romans 5:2, Paul goes on to say that we have access by faith into grace.. and not faith and works.
This is what you are really trusting in for salvation. Your best efforts to live a holy life. Faith in self. Salvation by works.
It's not enough to merely believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Savior of the world and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." We must also believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Those who are justified have been sanctified (set apart/made holy) by the Spirit. Sanctification of the Spirit does not mean "type 2 works salvation." When we are justified we are also sanctified set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..
Yet we also see ongoing or progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. In 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, we read - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.
So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I understand it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.
Your surface reading of this verse leads to sinless perfection. How about some context: Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Conditional on faith in Christ. (Acts 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 1 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:15).
Genuine believers do continue to believe and abide in Christ. Obedience to Christ/cooperation with God is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast the end. The wording is not, "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as partakers of Christ will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later depart? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original; they answer the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. We do this by building ourselves up in our most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Nothing there about keep yourself saved from your surface reading.
"
I will never forget temporarily attending the church of Christ when I was around 18 years old with a friend of mine whose Aunt was a very devout member of that church. After becoming a Christian and running into my friend's Aunt years later, I was happy to share with her that I have received Jesus Christ as my Savior and the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not the church of Christ, she bowed her head in sadness to imply I was still lost because I left the church of Christ and she also said I did not remain faithful unto death because I left that church.
I find it interesting that you continually gravitate to the same verses that other works-salvationists gravitate to as well in order to support "type 2 works salvation." If Revelation 2:10 (according to your surface reading) teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to placing their faith in Him for salvation that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!
In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death. Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.
The word "if" in Colossians 1:23 is an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."
That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel and they really have been reconciled. The form of this phrase indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians mixed in with the group whose shallow, temporary belief withers away and they do not continue?
It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation when in fact they may not be genuine believers? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show otherwise.
The Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.
Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)
CONTINUED..
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Salvation by grace through faith, not works is not contradictory. (Ephesians 2:8,9) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful is also not contradictory. (Matthew 13:23) Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith in Christ but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we receive eternal life. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
Where does the article say, "habitual sin" and where did the article say this is the continued, ongoing lifestyle of the Christian? Living in habitual sin is practicing sin, which does not describe those who are born of God. (1 John 3:9) Habitual sin/practicing sin describes continuous action and not merely, temporarily backsliding.
My guess is that you are determined to slander me as one who promotes a license to sin. You feed on judging others. I read this below from the GotQuestions article:
Christians do sin (1 John 1:8), but the Christian life is not to be identified by a life of sin. - identified by a life of sin would be practicing sin.
Yes, a true Christian who falls back into sin is still saved, but at the same time a person who lives a life controlled by sin is not truly a Christian. - Falling back sounds like a temporary implication to me here and not continuous action. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
You just love to judge, falsely accuse and condemn others. Your true colors are showing. In regards to the prodigal son, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. People in the NOSAS camp interpret this parable as the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation). I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NASB).
Your surface reading of Romans 8:13 has caused you to misunderstand the context and has led you right back to 'sinless perfection.' Anything short of 'sinless perfection' according to you is living after the flesh. You just don't get it. Galatians 5:19 says those who practice such things and 1 Corinthians 6:9 describes such people as the unrighteous. You are so busy trying to judge and condemn OSAS believers and exalt yourself as "holier than thou" that you missed this.
I agree with 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time. Apparently, you disagree and opt for sinless perfection.
I can hardly wait.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regards to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). *Hermeneutics.
If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"(Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) Apparently, "once for all" and "perfected for all time" doesn't really means what it says. Again Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.
*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.
Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" exclusively meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians and not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
First, I already gave you an answer on this before. Did you not read what I had read? Matthew 25:21 says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter the joy of His Lord. However, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).
Second, I told you before, but you seem to keep ignoring it, but Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue because there are sins that do not lead unto spiritual death (1 John 5:16). If you look at the AMP Translation for Matthew 5:22, Jesus even mentioned how there are two related sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, and then there is a third related sin that leads to punishment in hellfire. So not all sin leads to spiritual death (or the second death).
Three, the table can be turned on you just as equally. How many sins does it take in order to show that a believer is living in habitual sin, and they are not saved? Can a believer set out to murder every 10 years, and that's okay with God as long as he pays lip service to the Lord? Where is the line drawn between practicing sin vs. not practicing sin? If you declare that you will sin again this side of Heaven, is that not a justification of doing evil again? How is that good? How is that of God? What kind of sins are acceptable in God's sight for believers who will always sin this side of Heaven (yet it's not habitual)?
Do you even realize that the Fall of mankind happened by just one sin by Adam?
You said:
As for Ecclesiastes 7:20:
Well, here is what Ecclesiastes 7:20 says in the Good News Translation:
Ecclesiastes 7:20 GNT
"There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."
"There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."
In other words, this is speaking of the fact that a believer may do things that would not be classified as a sin that leads unto death (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). Mistakes would fall under the category of hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalms 19:12. This is not talking about serious sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, hating, stealing, murdering, fornicating, and getting drunk, etc.
Also, this was during the time of the Old Testament, too (See Hebrews 11:40)
As for Romans 3:23:
First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.
For Romans 3:11 says,
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
(Romans 3:11).
How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?(Romans 3:11).
In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).
As for your quote of Romans 6:23:
It's true. The wages of sin is death, but not all sins condemn (1 John 5:16) (Matthew 5:22). Eternal life through Jesus Christ only applies if you walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (sin) (See: Romans 8:1 in the King James Bible, and see Romans 8:13). Actually, Romans 6:23 actually condemns your false belief because you declare that you must sin again at some point in the future. So if you sin, you believe it is inevitable, and it's really not your fault. You don't believe verses like Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1.
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First, this either sounds like you just mindlessly copied and pasted info to throw at me or you forgot what I actually believe. For you reference how the Initial Act of being accounted righteous with God is not by works (like those in the Church of Christ or Catholics). But I don't believe we are accounted righteous by works in our Initial Salvation. Yet, you said, I quote:
“(says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)”
~ Quote by: Mailmandan.
~ Quote by: Mailmandan.
This shows you are just throwing words at me mindlessly and you are not really talking and listening (i.e. a real conversation). For I already told you before that I don't believe works is the initial act of being accounted righteous with God. I believe we are saved initially by God's grace without works in the 1st aspect of salvation.
Second, you keep repeating the same contradictory claim. You say that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, and then you contradict yourself by saying a dead faith will not produce works (Which echoes your previous statements that a believer who had been saved initially by faith alone will have works). So my two questions for you are:
How can it be “faith alone” that saves if you also claim that works are needed to show that a believer is genuinely previously saved in the beginning by faith alone?
Is not works proof that a person has been saved by faith alone?
If works are needed to show a true saving faith, then how does that equate with works not being a part of the salvation equation?
If works are required to show proof or evidence of salvation, then works are simply required for salvation.
If works are not required for salvation, then you don’t need to show evidence of any works to prove your “faith alone” for salvation is true.
This is the contradiction of your belief that you still cannot see.
If you were a part of the Hyper-Grace crowd, this would not be a contradiction.
For Hyper Grace Christians believe that works is not evidence of salvation. They believe they can be barren and unfruitful and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. In other words, they truly believe in Faith Alone. You don't truly believe that. You sneak in works through the backdoor and use clever word play to make it sound like you are Faith Alone in Christ Alone when you don't truly believe that. For you state that works is evidence of a true saving faith. Meaning, works must be there as a part of the salvation equation.
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Modern Translations say “being sanctified” or “being made holy” in Hebrews 10:14. This rendering could also potentially be accurate because sanctification does not stop in a believer’s life.
Hebrews 10:14 BLB
“For by one offering, He has perfected for all time those being sanctified.”
Hebrews 10:14 NLT
“For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.”
Hebrews 10:14 ESV
“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”
Hebrews 10:14 AMP
“For by the one offering He has perfected forever and completely cleansed those who are being sanctified [bringing each believer to spiritual completion and maturity].”
This makes sense because 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So it’s not just having faith in Christ’s blood as the atoning sacrifice for the remission of sin (Romans 3:25), but one also has to “walk in the light to have the blood of Jesus cleanse one from all sin” according to 1 John 1:7, too. Walking in the light = Loving your brother according to the indirect wording found in 1 John 2:9-11. So you have to love your brother (action, or obedience, holy living) to continue to access the redemption of our Savior (i.e. to be sanctified, washed or cleansed from past sin).
The rendering of Hebrews 10:14 in the King James Bible sounds like it could also be referring to a believer’s progressive Sanctification being complete in this life (Which is a somewhat closely related to the words “being sanctified” found in Modern Translations). So if you wanted to take the words “for ever” to mean all eternity, Hebrews 10:14 can refer to sanctification continuing and being complete in this life. For the sacrifice applies even in our action of walking in the light according to 1 John 1:7.
For sanctification does not end with our acceptance of Christ in our Initial Salvation. It continues in Progressive Sanctification of living a holy life life, too.
You said:
Hebrews 10:38 says:
“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”
You cannot draw back from living by faith if you never had the faith to begin with.
But Hebrews 10:26-38 is not the only place in the Bible that talks about falling away. Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:
Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,
Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)
And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)
Even the apostle Paul says,
- We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
- We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
- We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
- We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
- We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
- We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
- We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
- We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
- We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
- Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).
For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For many in Christianity today think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil on some level; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
So faithful over a few things (which is descriptive of believers) is your answer. In regards to the parable of the unprofitable servant, the talents represent monetary value and are disttibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.
The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.
This man's characterization of the master maligns him as a cruel and ruthless opportunist, "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer. It's obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he was saved. *The children of Israel were called the "Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved.
Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Isaiah 43:1 - But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine.. 10 You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen..
Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.
You jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. Physical death. AMPC - ..does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin.. Apart from faith and the blood of Christ, all sin leads to spiritual death.
Is there anger which is not sinful? Your argument here lines up with the Roman Catholic doctrine that teaches there are some sins that will separate us from God for all eternity (mortal sins) and some sins that will not. (venial sins)
The concept of practicing sin is similar to that of practicing medicine or law. It means the person is actively engaged in it on a consistent basis with no goal or effort to stop. Just bring it on. It's one's lifestyle or bent of life. Yet practicing sin is not descriptive of those who are born of God. (1 John 3:9)
So it only takes one sin to keep us out of heaven, yet you have a list of sins that are okay to commit and that only certain sins will keep us out of heaven.
So you excuse certain sins. Your doctrine of mortal vs. venial sins comes straight out of the Roman Catholic church.
Romans 3:23 simply states that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and this includes YOU. We ALL fall short of God's sinless standard.
As for your quote of Romans 6:23:
So back to the Roman Catholic doctrine of mortal sins vs. venial sins? So some sins are okay with you and with God? Just the little sins?
Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit. You have two camps of Christians. Those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh and those who walk after the flesh and not the Spirit. I see you ignored Romans 8:8-11 which does not support your "type 2 works salvation" theology.
Straw man argument. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Not through sinless perfection from your surface reading of Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
1 John 1:8 is in the present tense, which means that we will not remain sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time this side of Heaven. Those who believe otherwise are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)
You just love to judge and condemn OSAS believers. In regards to Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between slaves. There are only two kinds of slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; slaves of sin unto death and slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."
Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for believing the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
Those who do not believe the gospel remain slaves of sins. Unbelievers are not "slaves of obedience unto righteousness" no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.
Surface reading - 'sinless perfection.'
Work out the salvation we already have in Christ and not work for our salvation - "type 2 works salvation."
Sure there is. Just not the unhealthy kind of fear and trembling (fear and bondage to IN-security) that you subscribe to. I see fearing God as fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2). Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and had absolutely no assurance of salvation. That is an unhealthy fear!
Easy street? Is that the problem for you? Salvation by grace through faith, not works, sounds to easy to you? You prefer to make it hard? 1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Praise God! :)
Apparently, you have no assurance of salvation because you are base receiving salvation upon the merits of your performance/works. Enjoy your roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security! I got off that roller coaster ride upon my conversion after leaving the Roman Catholic church.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Most of your posts sound like a copy and paste job to me. I have simply shared the same scriptures with you after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. That wasn't done mindlessly. You need the repetition because you don't listen. It's impossible to have real conversations with spiritual narcissists and know it all's and you come across as both. So you are sticking with your "initially accounted as righteous by faith and not by works" but "finally being accounted as righteous by works." You continue to double down on your "type 2 works salvation" doctrine. This is very disappointing. Your beliefs are obviously fixed and your conscience is seared.
So Christ merely "initially" saved you, but ultimately, you saved yourself. Guess who gets to share in the credit in salvation with Christ and who also gets to boast? YOU.
My claim is not contradictory. You just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear and there is a reason for that.
We show our faith by our works and demonstrate that we are already saved. Works don't save us. It's not about works are needed in order to become saved.
We simply show our faith by our works. So works are the evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith. You just can't seem to wrap your mind around that.
Because we are NOT saved by both faith AND works.
No they are not because we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. As I said before, faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Works-salvationists ask these kinds of questions all the time.
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* I can't make it any clearer than that.
There is no contradiction. Again, you just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear and THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.
You and your labels. Works being a 'part of the salvation equation' would mean that we are saved by works (at least in part) but that is not the case. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) I see that you continue to double down on sneaking works through the backdoor of salvation by grace through faith, not works and there is just no getting through to you at all. Beliefs fixed. Conscience seared.
