Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

[Rich R]

If eternal life is a gift, and it is, then so is speaking in tongues:

"23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift (charisma) of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

"28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts (charisma) of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts (charisma) of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts (charisma)." 1 Corinthians 12:28-31​

I was thinking of 1 Cor 12:7-10. Verse seven brings up the spiritual matter of manifestations and the next three verses lists the manifestations one of which is tongues.

In the end, everything we have from God is a gift. I realize that. However one of the gifts God gave us is holy spirit. The problem with much teaching that tongues is a gift, leads people to think it is a special thing, only the those who were singled out by God. That of course leads the vast majority of Christians to think they are not "special" and therefore do not have the "gift" of tongues. But that's not right. Paul, by revelation from God, said he wished every Christian spoke in tongues, so it MUST be available for all Christians to speak in tongues.

All Christians can speak in tongues because all Christians have the GIFT of holy spirit. As 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 says, there are nine different MANIFESTATIONS, one of which is tongues. In short, if you are born again, you have the GIFT of holy spirit which you, by your free will, can MANIFEST power form on high (Luke 24:49) into the material world.

Perhaps you could imagine that the devil would absolutely loose his mind if all Christians MANIFESTED that power from on high? I suspect his only answer is to keep as many Christians as possible from knowing about those MANIFESTATIONS, including tongues.

As you said, when all is said and done all of this is truly a gift . We certainly didn't earn it!

 

[Rich R]

Simply by Speaking the Words that the HOLY SPIRIT gives us to say accurately and without personal enhancement, and not engaging in meaningless "Word Games" about what the genre should be called.

Honestly, I don't see why agreeing with the obvious meaning of 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 constitutes "word games" but that's just me. I respect that in your eyes I'm playing word games. But given you've replied more than once to my word games, I assume you are still wiling to hear what I say, be they word games or not. So, is the following more "word games" in your mind?

In the end, everything we have from God is a gift. I realize that. However one of the gifts God gave us is holy spirit. The problem with much teaching that tongues is a gift, leads people to think it is a special thing, only those who were singled out by God. That of course leads the vast majority of Christians to think they are not "special" and therefore do not have the "gift" of tongues. But that's not right. Paul, by revelation from God, said he wished every Christian spoke in tongues, so it MUST be available for all Christians to speak in tongues.

All Christians can speak in tongues because all Christians have the GIFT of holy spirit. As 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 says, there are nine different MANIFESTATIONS, one of which is tongues. In short, if you are born again, you have the GIFT of holy spirit which you, by your free will, can MANIFEST power form on high (Luke 24:49) into the material world.

Perhaps you could imagine that the devil would absolutely loose his mind if all Christians MANIFESTED that power from on high? I suspect his only answer is to keep as many Christians as possible from knowing about the truth of those MANIFESTATIONS, including tongues. The less tongues spoken, the less power from on high MANIFESTED into his unholy domain, i.e., this present evil world.

As you said, when all is said and done all of this is truly a gift . We certainly didn't earn it!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

All Christians can speak in tongues because all Christians have the GIFT of holy spirit.

What you're forgetting (or denying) is Jesus' command for the disciples (who were ALREADY INFILLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT (John20:22) to hang around Jerusalem until they were "ENDUED" (Externally clothed) with power from on high. Acts 2:4 records that experience, and presents "tongues" for the first time. "Clothing with power" also occurred in the Old Testament with some regularity of certain individuals (remember Samson?) who weren't INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit at all..

SO John 20:22 = The Holy Spirit IN the disciples - i.e. they were "Born Again".
Acts 2:4 = The Holy Spirit ON the disciples.

Two unique issues.

As 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 says, there are nine different MANIFESTATIONS, one of which is tongues. In short, if you are born again, you have the GIFT of holy spirit which you, by your free will, can MANIFEST power form on high (Luke 24:49) into the material world.

Standard Rehetoric, for those who deny the "uniqueness" of Jesus' orders. Of course the "List of 9" is a list of Categories, so there are actually any number of GIFTINGS according to situational need.

DO YOU speak in tongues (since according to your theology, you obviously should be able to, as well as working Miracles, and producing healings)??[/QUOTE]

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I know a christian street preacher who speaks in tongues but it hasn't helped him one bit, he's got two failed marriages behind him, he's been hauled up court twice for not paying his council tax, and his gas and electricity has been cut off at various times for not paying the bills because he's a disorganised mess who won't lift a finger to get some discipline into his life, preferring instead to fatalistically put himself in the hands of God 100%.

Everybody "KNOWS" somebody who "speaks in tongues", and Steals / Beats their wife / went insane / ate their cat.

ANYBODY can "Speak in tongues" with a little practice. You haven't presented any reason for us to believe this "Street preacher" is even a Christian.

 

[Dropship]

Might not be genuine tongues, i.e. true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Tongues can be faked, and there are many who do so to make themselves seem more "spiritual" or "anointed."

Yes, a lot of people like to think their cult or sect knows something that the rest of us poor slobs don't, it's a vanity thing..
For example I'm surprised that JW's even bother to talk to us common as muck riffraff-
WIKI- "The Watchtower Society advises Witnesses to minimize socializing with those who aren’t members, in order to maintain their spiritual integrity and morality."
The Beliefs and Practices of Jehovah's Witness

Muslims too prefer not to rub shoulders with anybody-
[Koran 5.51]- "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"

 

[Dropship]

..The Gift of tongues from the holy spirit, is simply a flow of words into a person's MIND from the Holy Spirit, which they then SPEAK, as long as they flow in. When the flow stops, then Stop speaking..

Hey I got an idea! - why don't they just talk English in the first place so everybody can understand what they're saying?..

 

[Dropship]

..ANYBODY can "Speak in tongues" with a little practice..

Let me have a try..)
"A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop-a-lop-bam-boom/..be-bop-a-lula she's my baby/..who's-on-first-what's-on-second-i-dunno-who's-on-third.."
I'm sure there's divine message in there somewhere.

 

[Dropship]

Every Christian would love to speak another foreign language..

Yes I'm thinking of enrolling here-

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think in some churches, "speaking in tongues" is considered a status symbol - you have to "speak in tongues" to get respect. But I don't think those people really speak in tongues.

The reality is that not everyone going to church are Christians. Even in Pentecostal denominations I've heard people speak in obvious fake tongues. I've even got an old girlfriend who has spoken in fake tongues for 46 plus years since the 70's. I did too then until one night I was finally actually filled with the Holy Spirit and saved, and the next time I spoke in tongues (we are in charge of opening our mouth - it is not like we are possessed of the Spirit and have no control) it just flowed. It was no longer I who formed the words. It is when it is slow and practiced, saying a few made up phrases in different orders over and over, never changing, that it is fake. I finally realized by her fruit that the reason was because she wasn't saved at all.

Bob, everyone who is saved can speak in tongues, cast out devils, heal the sick and enjoy divine protection (serpents and poison Hebrew idiom).

Mark 16:16-18
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

But Cessationists filled with unbelief (about tongues, not Jesus) refuse to open their mouths. They do not come to Jesus with the openness of a child like He wants us to. And if they let their unbelief turn into mocking - heaven help them! Now that is a sign of one who doesn't even have saving grace. (Grace is the divine power of God). So you who don't speak in tongues cannot judge those who do. It is only those who do speak in Spirit-filled tongues can actually judge the manifestation of tongues in others. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 applies to those who call tongues today "gibberish" and "foolishness."

cc: @Bob Carabbio
Practice???? The only ones who need "practice" are those making up words. Those are fake. But at least they actually believe in the manefestation, and could someday be actually filled with the Spirit, where the Spirit forms the words. When I spoke in fake tongues, that was trying to speak in tongues because I wanted to be filled so badly. Little did I know that it takes true repentance to be saved and for Jesus to impart His Spirit of Christ into us, and the fake is gone, and the true just flows.

cc: @Dropship, @Christophany Edit: adding @Rich R

 

[Pearl]

Might not be genuine tongues, i.e. true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Tongues can be faked, and there are many who do so to make themselves seem more "spiritual" or "anointed."

But there many who don't fake it and just enjoy the gift privately between ourselves and God.

 

[mailmandan]

But there many who don't fake it and just enjoy the gift privately between ourselves and God.

In regards to speaking in tongues, I will never forget when my friend (who previously attended an Assemblies of God church) went to a Bible study at his Pastor's house once a week and sometimes the Pastor would speak in tongues during their Bible study. My friend worked with a woman who was a Baptist and was terrified of being around people who spoke in tongues, yet my friend convinced her to come to the Bible study to see for herself that she has nothing to fear. When his lady friend showed up at the Bible study, as soon as she walked in the door, the Pastor began speaking in tongues very loudly with his hands high in the air, then he fell backwards and did the nestea plunge on the floor! My friend said that even he was freaked out by the incident and when he turned around, his lady friend was runrunning for the hills! Now just because this Pastor got carried away in that situation doesn't mean that everyone does.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Let me have a try..)
"A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop-a-lop-bam-boom/..be-bop-a-lula she's my baby/..who's-on-first-what's-on-second-i-dunno-who's-on-third.."
I'm sure there's divine message in there somewhere.

Along those lines:

We had a fellow in our church up in Ohio who, regular as clockwork, would rip off a "tongue" at the same point in the service (not interrupting anything, and during a time in the proceedings when "Manifestations" were typical), and every one of his utterances WAS THE SAME - same length, same "words", same order, same, same.

And he had a stentorian bellow that would clean corn when he went off.

Of course when the Interpretations were spoken (as they always were), they were all over the map, some long, some short - obviously not DIRECTLY related to any "tongues" that he spoke.

SO - naturally I wrote him off as just another religious "flake". You DO FIND such people in Pentecostal Churches (Baptist CHurches too).

BUT then, after one of his same 'ol, same 'ol utterances, I WAS BURDENED to interpret, which I did.

And I learned not to be so Judgmental of another man's Gifting. Biblically God uses the FOOLISH to confound the "WISE".

Why not "just speak in the common tongue" - that's what Peter did in Acts two, and look how well THAT worked!!!! OF course the "Tongues" in Acts two, DID get peoples attention, leading up to Peter's message -

SO my suggestion is that the next time you speak to God, you go ahead and tell Him that you don't approve of His "Tongues thing" - that it's stupid, and it'd be Better just to gift PROPHESY instead.

Let us know how well that works for you.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

But there many who don't fake it and just enjoy the gift privately between ourselves and God.

Like myself - I've NEVER been burdened to speak a MESSAGE IN TONGUES in a meeting. only to Interpret Tongues, or speak prophesy.

 

[Pearl]

Let me have a try..)
"A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop-a-lop-bam-boom/..be-bop-a-lula she's my baby/..who's-on-first-what's-on-second-i-dunno-who's-on-third.."
I'm sure there's divine message in there somewhere.

Do not mock the Holy Spirit. And just because you don't understand the wonderful gift of tongues do not mock those who do. If you belong to a church fellowship it's obviously one that doesn't rely on the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rich R]

What you're forgetting (or denying) is Jesus' command for the disciples (who were ALREADY INFILLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT (John20:22) to hang around Jerusalem until they were "ENDUED" (Externally clothed) with power from on high. Acts 2:4 records that experience, and presents "tongues" for the first time. "Clothing with power" also occurred in the Old Testament with some regularity of certain individuals (remember Samson?) who weren't INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit at all..

SO John 20:22 = The Holy Spirit IN the disciples - i.e. they were "Born Again".
Acts 2:4 = The Holy Spirit ON the disciples.

Two unique issues.

Standard Rehetoric, for those who deny the "uniqueness" of Jesus' orders. Of course the "List of 9" is a list of Categories, so there are actually any number of GIFTINGS according to situational need.

DO YOU speak in tongues (since according to your theology, you obviously should be able to, as well as working Miracles, and producing healings)??

Well if John 20:22 is when the apostles received holy spirit, poor Thomas missed out (John 20:24). I think Jesus was actually instructing the Apostles for what was to come, i.e., the actual baptism in holy spirit.

Acts 2:33,

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.​

Peter told the crowd that they just witnessed the shedding forth of holy spirit which they "...NOW saw and hear." That was not talking about Jesus and the apostles gathered together before Jesus ascended, when John 20:22 took place.

Also notice that this shedding forth of holy spirit took place AFTER Jesus ascended and sat on the right hand of his Father.

I understand you to think we should to correct 1 Corinthians 12:7 to read:

1 Cor 12:7,

But the categories of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
​

But that can't be really what you are suggesting; is it?

Whether or not I personally speak with tongues or perform miracles is not the issue. The OP has nothing to do with me.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well if John 20:22 is when the apostles received holy spirit, poor Thomas missed out (John 20:24). I think Jesus was actually instructing the Apostles for what was to come, i.e., the actual baptism in holy spirit.

Acts 2:33,

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.​

Peter told the crowd that they just witnessed the shedding forth of holy spirit which they "...NOW saw and hear." That was not talking about Jesus and the apostles gathered together before Jesus ascended, when John 20:22 took place.

Also notice that this shedding forth of holy spirit took place AFTER Jesus ascended and sat on the right hand of his Father.

I understand you to think we should to correct 1 Corinthians 12:7 to read:

1 Cor 12:7,

But the categories of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
​

But that can't be really what you are suggesting; is it?

Whether or not I personally speak with tongues or perform miracles is not the issue. The OP has nothing to do with me.

Rich, if you could, please give me a response to Post #46.
- H

 

[bbyrd009]

Hey I got an idea! - why don't they just talk English in the first place so everybody can understand what they're saying?..

maybe “speaking in tongues” is just that, only it is not understood by the hearer?

 

[Tommy Cool]

Well if John 20:22 is when the apostles received holy spirit, poor Thomas missed out (John 20:24). I think Jesus was actually instructing the Apostles for what was to come, i.e., the actual baptism in holy spirit.

Not only would that mean that poor Thomas missed out ….it would also mean that Judas Iscariot was there…which most Christians believe he committed suicide in Mat 27:5 ……(he did not...it was later)

Same account ↓

Luk 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

 

[Rich R]

Rich, if you could, please give me a response to Post #46.
- H

Sorry. I wasn't avoiding your question. I'm just a bit overwhelmed here. Anyway, to answer your question as to what gifts Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 14:1, I'd have to say he wasn't talking about gifts at all.

1Cor 14:1,

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
​

spiritual [gifts]: Notice the word "gifts" is in brackets. In printed versions (notable KJV) it is printed in italics. That is done to inform the reader that the word was not in the original. The translators probably had good intentions and wanted to make it more clear. However in this case, all they did was mess things up and lead the reader astray.

The word "spiritual" is:
G4152 πνευματικός pneumatikos (pnev-ma-tiy-kos') adj.
1. spiritual, pertaining to the spirit.
2. that which is motivated and controlled through the spirit.
3. (demonically) of evil spirits.
4. (divinely) of the Holy Spirit.

It is the same word used in 1 Cor 12:1. Paul was talking about several different spiritual matters, including gifts (v4), administrations (v5), operations (v6), and finally manifestations (v7). I don't know how to make it any plainer than God already has. The items mentioned in verses 8-10 are not gifts, not administrations, nor operations. They are manifestations. Tongues is a manifestation.

I already said why calling tongues a gift is highly misleading to the reader and the problem it causes to the church. See post #102.

Hopefully that'll answer your question.

 

[Rich R]

Not only would that mean that poor Thomas missed out ….it would also mean that Judas Iscariot was there…which most Christians believe he committed suicide in Mat 27:5 ……(he did not...it was later)

Same account ↓

Luk 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Exactly!

Jesus was perfectly willing to endue Judas with the same power from on high as he did all the others. What love! But it just stands to reason he'd have forgiven Judas considering he asked his Father to forgive the folks who hung him on the cross.

In general, tradition really does go a long way towards making God's work ineffectual, which is really nothing new.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.​