Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

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Rich R

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Well there's the second dodge I've gotten to a very simple question, and with a "6th grader" insult thrown in for good measure, LoL. :p

Tommy Cool was polite about it, at least. What's the matter with you? You're normally fairly courteous to people. :confused:
It wasn't meant to be an insult, just a fact. It is a very simple grammatical construction. That's all I was pointing out. I have little doubt you are intelligent enough to understand it. I just think you prefer tradition, which is your prerogative for sure.

How did I not answer your question? I'll have another go at it; verse 4 talks about gift, verse 5 talks about administrations, verse 6 talks about operations, and finally verse 7 talks about manifestations. I don't see how verses 8-10 can be connected with anything but the last in the list, i.e., manifestations.

I think I also pointed out that the gift is holy spirit. There are other gifts as well, but in the context of holy spirit, tongues is one of the manifestations of that gift.

You talk about insults. Do you not think it insulting to suggest I don't understand the God's gifts can not be obtained by natural means?
 

Rich R

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If I may politely ask, gentlemen, how many of you actually speak in tongues?
I do. Often. Why? I like speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11). I like to magnify God (Acts 10:46). I like giving God thanks well (1 Cor 14:17). I like speaking mysteries with God (1 Cor 14:2). There's more, but just that ought to be enough to pique someone's interest. Of course to learn about tongues often require relinquishing long held traditions, which I realize is not always easy. Still the information has been there for over 2,000 years and it'll be there until Jesus returns.
 

Bob Estey

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It may come as somewhat of a surprise to most Christians to learn that the scriptures never call tongues a gift. In every English and Greek version of the scriptures that I know of, tongues is unambiguously called a manifestation. A manifestation is not the same thing as a gift.

Regardless of how one feels about whether tongues is valid today or not, at least we ought to know what it is before making that decision.

Acts 2:38,

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

The gift is holy spirit which is not the same thing as tongues. Now spirit can not be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or touched. It is not registered by any of the five senses in the material world.

John 3:6,

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

John 3:8,

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

The word "wind" is the same Greek word used for spirit, pneuma. It is the word used in both John 3:6 and Acts 2:36. While spirit itself can not be seen, the effects of it's operations can be seen, i.e., it is manifested into the material world. We can't see wind, but when it is energized we can see the effects it has on trees. That is exactly what John said in verse 3:8.

1 Cor 12:7-10,

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:​

As the scriptures clearly say, tongues is but one of nine manifestations of the spirit.

As Peter said on the day of Pentecost, anyone who repents and accepts Jesus as their Lord and believes God raise him from the dead (Rom 9-10), will receive the gift of holy spirit. That gift is the very essence of being born again. It is Christ in you (Col 1:27), the hope of future glory. It is the incorruptible seed of 1 Pet 1:23. All born again Christians have the gift.

Now that gift, that power from on high (Luk 24:29), is completely under the control of the believer. It can lay dormant in which case it's power will lay dormant. Or, by the believer's free will, it can be energized in nine different ways as listed in 1 Cor 12:7-10. When that is done, its full potential power is realized and manifested into the physical world. For example, tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy are manifestations that can be heard by anyone with ears. The invisible gift of spirit is manifested in the physical world when any one of the nine manifestations are operated by the believer.

As I said, regardless of how one feels about tongues, I think we at least owe God the practice of calling tongues what He calls them, i.e., a manifestation, not a gift.

I might also point out that Jesus said we would do the works he did and even greater works (John 14:12). It is quite easy to see Jesus operating 7 of the 9 manifestations throughout his ministry. The only ones he did not practice are tongues and interpretation of tongues, and and that is simply because the were not available until the day of Pentecost which was of course some time after he walked the earth. Could tongues and interpretation of tongues be the greater works? Not sure, but maybe they are.

Look, we wrestle, not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers from on high (Eph 6:12). Would it not stand to reason that we need spiritual power to wrestle against spiritual power? Of course it does, and those powers are none other than the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit. Ephesians 6:17 tells us to take the sword of the spirit. A sword simply hanging on one's belt, will do nothing when facing an attack by someone who is actually swinging their sword towards your head. To defeat such an enemy it is necessary to take the sword out of its sheath and actually start swinging, to start using its potential, to makes its power manifested to the enemy's, the devil's, head!
I think in some churches, "speaking in tongues" is considered a status symbol - you have to "speak in tongues" to get respect. But I don't think those people really speak in tongues.
 

Hidden In Him

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It wasn't meant to be an insult, just a fact.

A crack about what any sixth grader is capable of? :) Ok, whatever you say, LoL.
You talk about insults. Do you not think it insulting to suggest I don't understand the God's gifts can not be obtained by natural means?

Come, come. I was merely pointing out what I think is illogical in your premise...

... Since you find such a simple thing insulting, I may have to forego this conversation.

God bless, and maybe next time.
- H
 

Rich R

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Paul was spot on-
"If the whole church speaks in tongues, won't a newcomer think you're out of your minds?
But if you all preach, he'll worship God (1 Corinthians 14:24)
Very true. Good point. That is why Paul gave very precise instructions on how the manifestations should be used in a church meeting. Our fellowship is always decent and in order. We usually have several people speak in tongues with interpretation. We also have many who prophecy, a message from God meant especially to those in the meeting. It's always one at a time. In any case, the net result is that all of those present are edified (1 Cor 14:26) and comforted (1 Cor 14:31) What's wrong with that? Sounds pretty good to me!

You are quite correct in eschewing the whole "slain in the spirit" thing. That is definitely not decent and in order as we are exhorted to be in 1 Cor 14:40. Give 1 Cor 14 a careful reading and you'll see that Paul gives very precise instructions on how to act in a church meeting, including the operations of the manifestations. It's pretty neat I think.
 

Rich R

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I think in some churches, "speaking in tongues" is considered a status symbol - you have to "speak in tongues" to get respect. But I don't think those people really speak in tongues.
Yes, but that is never God's intention. The fact is, it takes great humility to walk out in believing that you can speak in tongues, to believe God that if you move your tongue, your lips, your throat, He'll give you the words, words you yourself can not understand.

1 Cor 14:2,

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

It's a miracle that has nothing to do with man's ability, so man ought not get puffed up about it. In fact, that is exactly what the whole of 1 Cor 13 is about. Love is the key. Without love, tongues or not has no meaning. When I pray for someone's sickness, I don't always know what is wrong with them. But God does, and He gives me the exact right words to say to make intercession for that person. It's a wonderful thing that all Christians ought to avail themselves of.

Of course, one must be taught, and many are taught incorrectly, hence the big egos. It is pure grace that anyone can operate the gift of holy spirit via one or more of the nine manifestations.

If tongues is a status symbol for anybody, it ought to be for God. He's the one who came up with the whole idea, and it's a brilliant idea if I say so myself! :)
 

Rich R

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A crack about what any sixth grader is capable of? :) Ok, whatever you say, LoL.


Come, come. I was merely pointing out what I think is illogical in your premise...

... Since you find such a simple thing insulting, I may have to forego this conversation.

God bless, and maybe next time.
- H
Well, Google it, and you'll see that the Bible is really written at about a 6th grade reading level. Are all those sources insulting? I don't know...I don't think so. I think it's just stating a fact. Sorry if it offended you in any way. Like I said, it was certainly not my intention.

Take care...God bless...
 

Bob Estey

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Yes, but that is never God's intention. The fact is, it takes great humility to walk out in believing that you can speak in tongues, to believe God that if you move your tongue, your lips, your throat, He'll give you the words, words you yourself can not understand.

1 Cor 14:2,

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

It's a miracle that has nothing to do with man's ability, so man ought not get puffed up about it. In fact, that is exactly what the whole of 1 Cor 13 is about. Love is the key. Without love, tongues or not has no meaning. When I pray for someone's sickness, I don't always know what is wrong with them. But God does, and He gives me the exact right words to say to make intercession for that person. It's a wonderful thing that all Christians ought to avail themselves of.

Of course, one must be taught, and many are taught incorrectly, hence the big egos. It is pure grace that anyone can operate the gift of holy spirit via one or more of the nine manifestations.

If tongues is a status symbol for anybody, it ought to be for God. He's the one who came up with the whole idea, and it's a brilliant idea if I say so myself! :)
The original purpose of speaking in tongues was to educate people who spoke in different languages, was it not? Is that what is happening today?
 

Dropship

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The 'Alpha Course' movement was quite big at first here in Britain some years ago because it tried to bring Christianity to the people in a simple uncluttered way.
Then a TV documentary was broadcast in which they were speaking in tongues at an AC meeting and encouraging others to do it. Two newcomers walked out feeling silly, and public interest in the AC plummetted dramatically and it became a laughing stock, and I bet satan was chuckling.
Paul's words sum it up-
"If the whole church speaks in tongues, won't a newcomer think you're out of your minds? But if you all preach,he'll worship God (1 Corinthians 14:23)
 

Pearl

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When i pray in tongues it doesn't sound like that woman in the clip, it sounds like a real language with proper syntax - the arrangement of words and phrases to create well-formed sentences in a language: - with punctuation; pauses and full stops and with rise and fall.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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If I may politely ask, gentlemen, how many of you actually speak in tongues?
Excellent question. Not I. In my church that I received most of my knowledge and growth, we believed and practiced spiritual gifts. Several prayed in tongues. They called it a prayer language. It wasn't something you could learn in school, earthly. It was not from this world, an angelic/heavenly language. My girlfriend at the time prayed in tongues, although selectively and in private. My Pastor had the gift of tongues yet I never in 12 years heard him pray or speak in tongues. Why? Tongues is for personal edification. Unless someone has a prophetic word that concerns the church and/or there is someone who can interpret the tongues, then it is reserved.
 

Robert Gwin

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It is not a trance …You are in complete control...like speaking your native language only you make the decision to speak in tongues.
The true God does not control or possess…ever! …..The god of this world, does.

Available to all men, women, children (at an accountability age, my kids were 6)

Sometimes mind pictures are helpful in understanding. The following is kind of a cross between an analogy and an allegory ….we will call a Anagory (totally made up word)

Picture a hose coming down from heaven. When you become a Christian, you get this hose that is attached to your mouth (it’s a spiritual hose you can’t see it) God has opened up the spigot in heaven and your mouth acts as the trigger sprayer. Inside that hose is not water, but tongues…(interpretation and prophecy) and when you speak you are speaking the wonderful works of God. The spigot is open and the words are right there ready to flow, you control the sprayer to let those words out; you start, and stop at will, you are in control.

Remember this is only an analogy to help you develop a mind picture …..you don’t really get a hose ……you can get that at the hardware store for about 20.00 and a cheap trigger sprayer for $8.00…………… but manifesting tongues, interpretation and prophecy ……………priceless!

Hi Tommy, welcome to the forum sir, I just wanted to comment that you definitely have a cool handle sir, don't come any better.
 

Robert Gwin

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Lol, I read and understand his words. YOU DO NOT !Therefore you deny Jesus is God and he will also deny you before the Father.

I lean on the understanding provided through God the Holy Ghost not my own understanding nor another's.

You seem to be a nice polite person but we have nothing to discuss. I cannot learn from one who denies Jesus is God.

May he turn you onto the path where the Spirit will light your way and the TRUTH will be revealed unto your soul.

Since you said Jesus is the Father, what do I have to worry about maam? You simply make no sense. Those who refuse to listen to Jesus' words through his disciples will not learn for sure, I agree.
 

L.A.M.B.

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Please try reading 1 Cor. Ch. 12 again under the leadership of the Holy Spirit about his gifts that he divides servally to whom he chooses.

Reading while INDOCTRINATED obscures the truth!
 
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Tommy Cool

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Please try reading 1 Cor. Ch. 12 again under the leadership of the Holy Spirit about his gifts that he divides servally to whom he chooses.

Reading while INDOCTRINATED obscures the truth!

The verse you refer to is 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Some say the words “severely as he will” are referring to “as God wills”. If that were the case then God just contradicted Himself from verse 7 where He stated “is given to every man”... Furthermore the word severely is the Greek word idia from idios meaning “ones own”. Of the 114 times the word idios is used in the Bible, this is the only place it is translated severely. Usually translated “one’s own” “his own” “your own”.
By using the correct rendering of this word idios, verse 11 would read “dividing (distributing) to every man his own, as he (the man) will”

If we call these a gift…. we put ourselves in the position of waiting for God to give us one or more of the so-called “gifts” listed in verses 8-10. It stimulates believers to hope, desire, pray and beg for something, and then to question their righteousness, their goodness, and their worthiness, as to why they do not receive it.

Calling it a gift would also make God a respecter of persons as to whom He gives these “gifts” to…. and we know, that God is no respecter of persons….. as the Bible states in Act 10:34, Eph 6:9, Col 3:25, and Rom 2:11 …just to name a few
God is a respecter of conditions, the condition being “believing” …… believing what is available..

The gift ministries listed in Eph 4:11 are given to man by God, but this is on a horizontal level of mans commitment and service to Gods people....very different situation.

I have guided hundreds of people …. where they have operated the manifestation of tongues, and (in time) the other 8 manifestation of the spirit…Never … has anyone ever failed to speak in tongues…. not because of me….it’s of God….What you speak is Gods business, but that you speak is your business ….And who wouldn’t want that when you know the benefits thereof Benefits ...CB link#53
 

L.A.M.B.

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The verse you refer to is 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Some say the words “severely as he will” are referring to “as God wills”. If that were the case then God just contradicted Himself from verse 7 where He stated “is given to every man”... Furthermore the word severely is the Greek word idia from idios meaning “ones own”. Of the 114 times the word idios is used in the Bible, this is the only place it is translated severely. Usually translated “one’s own” “his own” “your own”.
By using the correct rendering of this word idios, verse 11 would read “dividing (distributing) to every man his own, as he (the man) will”

If we call these a gift…. we put ourselves in the position of waiting for God to give us one or more of the so-called “gifts” listed in verses 8-10. It stimulates believers to hope, desire, pray and beg for something, and then to question their righteousness, their goodness, and their worthiness, as to why they do not receive it.

Calling it a gift would also make God a respecter of persons as to whom He gives these “gifts” to…. and we know, that God is no respecter of persons….. as the Bible states in Act 10:34, Eph 6:9, Col 3:25, and Rom 2:11 …just to name a few
God is a respecter of conditions, the condition being “believing” …… believing what is available..

The gift ministries listed in Eph 4:11 are given to man by God, but this is on a horizontal level of mans commitment and service to Gods people....very different situation.

I have guided hundreds of people …. where they have operated the manifestation of tongues, and (in time) the other 8 manifestation of the spirit…Never … has anyone ever failed to speak in tongues…. not because of me….it’s of God….What you speak is Gods business, but that you speak is your business ….And who wouldn’t want that when you know the benefits thereof Benefits ...CB link#53



I know what I referenced.
I don't need a tutor.
Furthermore YOU GUIDED or you teach them to with repetitive hogwash like Andrew Womack and others do?

I live by what the word tells me illuminated by the Holy Spirit. I believe ALL men are liars and God is the truth !
 

Pearl

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I don't know about anybody else but I like to sing in tongues. The first time I ever did I got the interpretation straight off and it proved to be a personal prophecy which a few years ago God told me had partly been fulfilled.

Sadly I don't do it as often as I used to; mostly because of threads like this which can inhibit. But I still do it.