If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[ScottA]

That description by John doesn't seem to be much like that of a spirit does it.

Yes that is because Jesus is forever God in the flesh, a man with a human body.

Now, hold on...

God is spirit.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are sadly mistaken of you think a human sacrifice sufficient for man's redemption. Mankind wasn't condemned and guilty for transgressing against human laws. The Ten Commandments, the law against which man sinned, is a divine law written with a divine finger on tablets made from the very throne of divinity. Only the death of a divine Being could atone for the transgression against divinity.

God said it was, and that is good enough for me Brake. That one sacrifice paid the ransom for what Adam lost. If it didn't we have no hope, so what would be the point?

 

[Robert Gwin]

All "who come to the Father", verse 6.

It might help if you reason on this Scott. Jesus is in heaven, and he is talking about them going to heaven with him. I believe we agree so far. The Bible later shows that not only his apostles, the ones he actually said that to, some others would be in that group. So since all of them are going to heaven, who are the other sheep, the ones who inherit the earth and reside upon it forever? Mat 5:5 Ps 37:29

 

[Robert Gwin]

I only take what the bible says SIR!

I see you have fallen back on the old watchtower ploy- well all the versions who say Jesus is God have been altered.

I thinkg we have reached an end here. I cannot argue when you refuse to do independent study to see that the NWT is by the conclusion of nearly all Greek SCholarsa both learned and natural speakers, the worst translation of the bible available.

I am sure we shall tangle on another thread when you wish to post more Watchtower deception.

Please do, I never asked more than that ever. No one can ever go wrong accepting what the Bible really teaches.

 

[Robert Gwin]

We should address this:



Jesus said:

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:12-18
​

And God said through the prophet Isaiah:

Thus says the LORD (Yᵊhōvâ), the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD (Yᵊhōvâ) of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
​

Yes sir, since that title applies to both, make sure when it appears to whom it is referring to. Jehovah and Jesus share multiple titles, but of course they are not the same person Scott. If they are, we are in a heap of trouble.

 

[Robert Gwin]

There is a whole farm of straw men here which you have resorted to in order to defend just one point of belief. They are unnecessary and superfluous to the discussion. For example, no-one is arguing about the nature of Christ before the incarnation. No-one of arguing that He gave his life to redeem man. No-one is arguing that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But does it ever occur to you that there are explanations beyond what the Watchtower have taught you? Have you ever asked yourself why JWs aren't allowed to accept literature from those they visit? Have you ever considered that truth is deeper and more precious than anything you have heretofore encountered? Have you ever considered that what you think is deep understanding (compared to the world) is in reality only superficial? Have you ever considered that none of us understand the real deep things of God, and that we will h have all eternity to learn and never reach the end of knowledge?
Do you understand the relation of the spirit and mind, and how people experience out-of-body events, particularly at death, even though scripture declares death is a sleep?
Do you understand the occult, and how people can travel spiritually to distant realms and speak with demons and Satan himself?
Do you understand all there is to know of metaphysics, and how doing one seemingly simple act on one side of the planet has an effect on unrelated events the other side of the planet?
Do you understand how Jesus was able to walk through walls, yet could be touched, handled, and yet two disciples not recognize him, their eyes being 'holden that they couldn't recognize Him', (Luke 24:16) yet the disciples knew him on the beach when He cooked them a barbecue? (John 21)
Do you understand the difference between a glorified body, a body such as we have now, and a spirit? Do angels have bodies? Yes, yet they are spirits are they not? How does a spirit take Lot by the hand of he doesn't have a body?
There are questions and realities we don't understand. We ought not pontificate on subjects we do not, and cannot fathom. What we do know is that we will be resurrected, we will partake of food and wine in heaven, we will live in houses and triste to physical real life creatures in the new earth, yet be able to travel between stars and galaxies beyond our imagination. How? Well, the exciting thing will be discovering that, and many other things that our minds aren't up to understanding at present.
Will we have blood in our new glorified bodies? Maybe. I'm not sure. But when Jesus spoke of flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom, I don't think He was necessarily referring to actual physical flesh and blood, but rather the carnal nature. He was saying that sinners, except they repent and be born again, will die and not be resurrected to life, but to damnation.

Brake in all honesty I tend to ignore posts that have lots of questions. If there is anything about my faith that you would like to discuss, just ask and I will be glad to address it, but bombarding me with questions isn't my cup of tea sir. I gave evidence of why Jesus was resurrected back to his original form, you either accept it or you don't.
To address your first question, I always accept literature if the householder is willing to set a time up to discuss it's contents as compared to the Bible, but I am well rooted in the truth, and no doubt you can understand why it is discouraged correct? If you had kids, were you not protective about who their associates were?

 

[Brakelite]

Now, hold on...

God is spirit.

Yes He is. And He sits on a throne.
KJV John 5:36-39
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Angels are spirits also, yet one took the hand of Lot and led him out of the city. God wrote with His finger His law. Moses' face was converted with God's hand, and Moses saw only His back parts. Spirits can have bodies.

 

[ScottA]

It might help if you reason on this Scott. Jesus is in heaven, and he is talking about them going to heaven with him. I believe we agree so far. The Bible later shows that not only his apostles, the ones he actually said that to, some others would be in that group. So since all of them are going to heaven, who are the other sheep, the ones who inherit the earth and reside upon it forever? Mat 5:5 Ps 37:29

Okay...but keep going:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.​

 

[Brakelite]

God said it was,

God said a human sacrifice was sufficient to redeem mankind? Why then go to the bother of sending what you believe was an angel to accomplish that? Why not Abraham, or Moses, or David, or Job, or Noah, Elijah, or Zechariah?

 

[ScottA]

Yes sir, since that title applies to both, make sure when it appears to whom it is referring to. Jehovah and Jesus share multiple titles, but of course they are not the same person Scott. If they are, we are in a heap of trouble.

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
​

The "image" of scripture has two faces, but God is One.

 

[ScottA]

Yes He is. And He sits on a throne.
KJV John 5:36-39
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Angels are spirits also, yet one took the hand of Lot and led him out of the city. God wrote with His finger His law. Moses' face was converted with God's hand, and Moses saw only His back parts. Spirits can have bodies.

Of course God can speak and create bodies of matter, and He has. But He being spirit is "perfect" and just as Christ went to the Father, we also go, "that where He is we may be also." That is the perfection and the end of the matter.

In other words, the scriptures do not say that God being spirit was not perfect and therefore made a man of flesh that He might become perfect. But no, just the opposite--that God was perfect and made man and brings him to Himself in glory...in whom all things are possible, even the manifestation of matter and bodies. But God being spirit is higher, and men of flesh lower, abased.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Please do, I never asked more than that ever. No one can ever go wrong accepting what the Bible really teaches.

Correct! Not a some sect of christendom or the Watchtower tells you what it means.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes He is. And He sits on a throne.
KJV John 5:36-39
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Angels are spirits also, yet one took the hand of Lot and led him out of the city. God wrote with His finger His law. Moses' face was converted with God's hand, and Moses saw only His back parts. Spirits can have bodies.

I believe every time angels (spirit beings) were sent to earth they appeared bodily Brake. Why? because they cannot be seen in spirit form.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Okay...but keep going:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.​

Yes sir, and there will be. When? When Jesus hands the Kingdom back to his God and Father 1 Cor 15:24-28

 

[Robert Gwin]

God said a human sacrifice was sufficient to redeem mankind? Why then go to the bother of sending what you believe was an angel to accomplish that? Why not Abraham, or Moses, or David, or Job, or Noah, Elijah, or Zechariah?

While they were all exceptional individuals among God's people, they were not equal to the perfect Adam, they were all sinners. Imperfection cannot redeem that which is perfect. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul Brake. It had to be a corresponding ransom, and since no perfect human could have equaled Adam, then God chose to send His son.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
​

The "image" of scripture has two faces, but God is One.

It would likely help if you would use a version that translated more accurately Scott. I would suggest you consult an interlinear to see what was really there. As the verses stated Jehovah is God, and tehre is no other God to us Christians anyway.

 

[Brakelite]

While they were all exceptional individuals among God's people, they were not equal to the perfect Adam, they were all sinners. Imperfection cannot redeem that which is perfect. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul Brake. It had to be a corresponding ransom, and since no perfect human could have equaled Adam, then God chose to send His son.

Yet you deny He is truly the Son of God by insisting He was created, rather than the cause and beginning of creation as described in scripture. Begotten does not mean created.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Correct! Not a some sect of christendom or the Watchtower tells you what it means.

So then Ron, a simple question, who is God according to the Bible sir

 

[ScottA]

Yes sir, and there will be. When? When Jesus hands the Kingdom back to his God and Father 1 Cor 15:24-28

The point is that there are not two groups...not when all are in Christ. And that is the timing of "when" He hands the kingdom back to the Father...but when is that? It is as it is written: "Then comes the end." Which is not a time reference, but a Who reference...the timing of whom has already come and gone...except for the times of the gentiles who come "each one in his own order." "Then comes the End."

The end...by Name, is Christ, the End.

But you are not going to follow all that correctly if you try to fit it all into the times of this world--because we are talking about the kingdom, which is not of this world. So...back to the would-be time reference not being a time reference but a Who reference: In the world, all things are "in Christ" and in His time...just as it is said of our being crucified with Him in past tense. And it is for this reason, that Paul explains that we should rather understand that from our perspective all things are simply "each one in his one order"...which is a translation from worldly terms into kingdom terms...which is what I have been trying to impress upon you. But if you cannot perceive that the use of past tense language in the scriptures means that what I have been saying is true, and thereby move on to a greater understanding of the timing of events and the truth of the things of God, then you remain a prisoner of time which will indeed come "each one in his own order"--meaning you will not come into "all truth" until the grave. But these were meant to be the times of leading unto "all truth"--why should you wait and miss out?

 

[ScottA]

It would likely help if you would use a version that translated more accurately Scott. I would suggest you consult an interlinear to see what was really there. As the verses stated Jehovah is God, and tehre is no other God to us Christians anyway.

I gave you the original language already.

But it is a mistake to lean that way. The matter is not one of linguistics, but the Spirit. You are making an alter of the words...but Which is greater? says the LORD? How many times has God corrected men for making this mistake?

The scriptures have always been true, but many do not understand. I have told you the truth.