The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Taken]

Ive said before, @Timtofly got more flip flops than a Florida beach. He’s all over the place and will not stay on subject. His ideas (notice I said his) are scary.

He presents no factual Spiritual Order and Way, and his carnal minded logic; AGREE, as you say flips and flops.

I’m sure my long post will have none effect on him, but maybe useful to others.

 

[Philologos]

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[Philologos]

No, they don't.



That's wrong according to Gen 2. Adam was clearly created after God rested.

Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 contains the first “perspective “ on creation. This chapter was written specifically to describe the days of creation, nothing more. Genesis 2:4 begins a new “perspective “ on the beginnings of creation- it specifically starts with an overview of the creative days, then picks up on the activities of the 6th day in greater detail than the 1st chapter. Genesis 2:4 is the first of nearly a dozen accounts and genealogies in Genesis. The second chapter was written to focus on the people. In other words, chapters one and two cover some of the same six days of creation but from a different perspective. Don’t let the chapter and verse references confuse you, those were added by English translators but they goofed it up.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As much as I appreciate the response, it seems you may have meant it for someone else as it doesn't fit too well with the curiosity I had about your aforementioned process of elimination to determine the pretribulation rapture. But thank you for offering Scripture instead.

Ive never heard anyone who can see the gathering together describe that they saw it through a process of elimination…

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church,

Simple fact is that "Eschatology" at BEST, is nothing but a religious word for "Rank Speculation".

The "Professional Theologians" are all over the map, and every one of them has "Convincing evidence" that their "precious concepts" are accurate.

I still have my copy of "88 reasons", proving Biblically BEYOND ANY DOUBT that the RAPTURE will occur during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988.

ANd Harold Camping PROVED BEYOND ANY DOUBT that the rapture would be May 1, 2011.

SO Personally I DON'T "Consider the Rapture of the Church", since it'll happen when it's time, and the "educated opinions" of Eschatologists, and theologians are just so much meaningless garbage.

 

[Timtofly]

He presents no factual Spiritual Order and Way, and his carnal minded logic; AGREE, as you say flips and flops.

I’m sure my long post will have none effect on him, but maybe useful to others.

I pointed out your usage of terms from Greek mythology, and you get mad and defensive, and then attack my posting style. You have yet to give a single verse to prove they are not mythological terms.

Your long explanation is totally avoiding the point. But believe what you want to believe. All you have is assumptions. Your reasoning for the subjection of the iron rod rule assumes that God cannot keep His promises in Daniel 9:24.

You have not even shown where my order is wrong and carnel, then you put carnality into the Millennium were it does not belong.

 

[marks]

proving Biblically BEYOND ANY DOUBT that the RAPTURE will occur during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988.

I finally tossed my copy last year, in a "paring down". I don't agree that it give convincing Biblical proof though. I certainly wasn't convinced at the time. Even so, that doesn't affect whether or not the Bible does or does not teach the harpadzo of those who are in Christ.

How is it you say Harold Camping proved his theories beyond doubt? You found his arguments believable? Convincing? I didn't. But the ministry that he and Phil Lindquist started continues today, producing fruit, because they stay with their model of Scripture and Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

Very true, though, it will happen in God's time.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

I pointed out your usage of terms from Greek mythology, and you get mad and defensive, and then attack my posting style. You have yet to give a single verse to prove they are not mythological terms.

You made a claim. It is faulty. You brought up Greek mythology, not me. I gave you scriptures. Gave you opportunity to get a dictionary, look up the meaning of words.
You have continued to derail the thread.
Done with you.
Sheesh!

@marks “sorry”.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I believe in NO pre-trib rapture. My understanding is the " great tribulation " is of 2 parts. TRIBULATION will come upon the Christendom of the earth for 3.5 yrs. We will suffer, be tortured to renounce Jesus, then be martyred for our faith. All those before are waiting under the altar who have been so martyred before for us to also be done then gathered.

Families will be enemies in their our homes,friends will turn you in for your faith. There will only be safety in the faith we have.

Then the second 3.5 yrs are the wrath of God poured out on the evil one and all unbelieving ppls. We will not suffer this event for God will have protected us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I believe in NO pre-trib rapture. My understanding is the " great tribulation " is of 2 parts. TRIBULATION will come upon the Christendom of the earth for 3.5 yrs. We will suffer, be tortured to renounce Jesus, then be martyred for our faith. All those before are waiting under the altar who have been so martyred before for us to also be done then gathered.

Families will be enemies in their our homes,friends will turn you in for your faith. There will only be safety in the faith we have.

Then the second 3.5 yrs are the wrath of God poured out on the evil one and all unbelieving ppls. We will not suffer this event for God will have protected us.

I do believe in our gathering together before the tribulation, but who knows if they have been sifted and enough slag removed to be taken in it? Yes, we’re supposed to pray we are found worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the world, but no one can say with certainty that they will be found worthy to escape it.
But if you’re left, it isn’t for punishment but to be tested and purified more.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I do believe in our gathering together before the tribulation, but who knows if they have been sifted and enough slag removed to be taken in it? Yes, we’re supposed to pray we are found worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the world, but no one can say with certainty that they will be found worthy to escape it.
But if you’re left, it isn’t for punishment but to be tested and purified more.

That is your prerogative stunned, and I don't think it will undo anyone's Salvation either way.

I cannot find ANY scripture that says such as a pre event. Did the first Christians get spared the burning crosses, the lions dens, the torture to renounce or did they suffered. Why do we think of all the worst generations of ppls we will be spared TRIBULATIONS?

We are tried and proven when we are held in the firey furnace of trials and learn patience and dependability on God. What do we think makes us special ? 2000 yrs since Christ and the covenant of grace and this ppl are soooooo far from Salvation and God.

At Jesus Christ, the Son of God's second coming he then will deal with the saints and the sinners will face his Father's wrath !

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That is your prerogative stunned, and I don't think it will undo anyone's Salvation either way.

I cannot find ANY scripture that says such as a pre event. Did the first Christians get spared the burning crosses, the lions dens, the torture to renounce or did they suffered. Why do we think of all the worst generations of ppls we will be spared TRIBULATIONS?

We are tried and proven when we are held in the firey furnace of trials and learn patience and dependability on God. What do we think makes us special ? 2000 yrs since Christ and the covenant of grace and this ppl are soooooo far from Salvation and God.

At Jesus Christ, the Son of God's second coming he then will deal with the saints and the sinners will face his Father's wrath !

I don’t think we’re special. Compared to those who were martyred and remained faithful we’re definitely not special. As for being tried by trials and learning patience and depending only on God, I have been living that. We don’t choose our own trials, God does. He either gives them to us or permits them. Some men don’t get martyred, but it’s not the circumstance that matters. It’s the heart that matters. But they are always to purify us and remove our slag.

As far as finding a definitive scripture, no, I agree. It’s more a combination of scriptures, old and new, that led me to it.

As far as end times beliefs, a midtrib gathering makes the most sense (or any sense among them) after my pretrib leaning. I can see how it is arrived at.

 

[Philologos]

Ive never heard anyone who can see the gathering together describe that they saw it through a process of elimination…

I’m just glad God doesn’t choose us that way…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’m just glad God doesn’t choose us that way…

It did just occur to me that maybe if someone said they came to the gathering together by a process of elimination, that maybe they meant they looked at all the views and decided on which one made the most sense to them with scripture. I don’t know that it’s a real good way to do it but…maybe that’s what they meant.

 

[ewq1938]

Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 contains the first “perspective “ on creation. This chapter was written specifically to describe the days of creation, nothing more. Genesis 2:4 begins a new “perspective “ on the beginnings of creation

That's a typical understanding but it is wrong. If I washed my car, drove to a restaurant and ate lunch, it would not simply be a different perspective if I told someone that I drove to a restaurant, ate lunch and washed my car. The order of events don't match.

Gen. 1 creation order: trees, animals, man and woman at the same time.

Gen. 2 creation order: one man, garden with trees, animals, then one woman.


There's only two ways to solve the differences.

Genesis makes mistakes or there are two different creations. There is no way Gen 2 is giving what happened in Gen 1. They are DIFFERENT in multiple ways.

Gen 1 is what happened first. Gen 2 is what happened AFTER the day or rest.

Gen 1 is a large creation all over the world. Gen 2 is a small creation only in the garden.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

This WAY hard,no doubt for we are tried from within at this time. Tried to correct our lean toward sin and the sins of the flesh like the pride of life and the lust of the eye. However I think there will be a trying of our humanity as in real flesh not spiritual.

Jesus said greater love hath no man except he will lay down his life for a friend,another or family. Can your mind comprehend your child being tortured to make you renounce God, or even your child turning you in to the powers that be bc you love God?

I think there may be no greater testimony than a person is martyred for God bc evil abounds.
Paul said if you do evil then why cry when you are persecuted. But if a righteous man is killed for the cause of Christ how great is that? ( paraphrased )

In an old Demi Moore movie " the Seventh Son" Jesus kept asking " will you die for me? Wow, what would be our answer to him if he asks this of us [ literal death ] and he does spiritually. We are to die daily crucifying the flesh over and over to bring it under subjection with the word and to the Spirit. We fail at just this,or i know I do.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I finally tossed my copy last year, in a "paring down". I don't agree that it give convincing Biblical proof though. I certainly wasn't convinced at the time. Even so, that doesn't affect whether or not the Bible does or does not teach the harpadzo of those who are in Christ.

How is it you say Harold Camping proved his theories beyond doubt? You found his arguments believable? Convincing? I didn't. But the ministry that he and Phil Lindquist started continues today, producing fruit, because they stay with their model of Scripture and Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

Very true, though, it will happen in God's time.

Nope - I never paid any attention to any of 'em (I used to hang the big charts for the "End Times Teachers" that used to travel around trying to scare folks into getting saved). Eschatology, as I said, is really NOTHING BUT RANK SPECULATION. Some folks get off on it, I pretty much IGNORE IT COMPLETELY.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

That's a typical understanding but it is wrong. If I washed my car, drove to a restaurant and ate lunch, it would not simply be a different perspective if I told someone that I drove to a restaurant, ate lunch and washed my car. The order of events don't match.

Gen. 1 creation order: trees, animals, man and woman at the same time.

Gen. 2 creation order: one man, garden with trees, animals, then one woman.


There's only two ways to solve the differences.

Genesis makes mistakes or there are two different creations. There is no way Gen 2 is giving what happened in Gen 1. They are DIFFERENT in multiple ways.

Gen 1 is what happened first. Gen 2 is what happened AFTER the day or rest.

Gen 1 is a large creation all over the world. Gen 2 is a small creation only in the garden.

I agree with this post it is either or. God told the man and woman he created to go replinish ( refill, refurbish, fill up again) the earth by relations so they could bear their own kind as he did the rest of his mammal creation.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 contains the first “perspective “ on creation. This chapter was written specifically to describe the days of creation, nothing more. Genesis 2:4 begins a new “perspective “ on the beginnings of creation- it specifically starts with an overview of the creative days, then picks up on the activities of the 6th day in greater detail than the 1st chapter. Genesis 2:4 is the first of nearly a dozen accounts and genealogies in Genesis. The second chapter was written to focus on the people. In other words, chapters one and two cover some of the same six days of creation but from a different perspective. Don’t let the chapter and verse references confuse you, those were added by English translators but they goofed it up.

Thank you! It warms my spirit to see someone else understand that they are 2 separate narratives yet both consisting of the same creation event. In each, detail is given a little here and a little there. I understand some may have never understood it that way, but that is how it’s written. Thank you for your response.

 

[Philologos]

That's a typical understanding but it is wrong. If I washed my car, drove to a restaurant and ate lunch, it would not simply be a different perspective if I told someone that I drove to a restaurant, ate lunch and washed my car. The order of events don't match.

Gen. 1 creation order: trees, animals, man and woman at the same time.

Gen. 2 creation order: one man, garden with trees, animals, then one woman.


There's only two ways to solve the differences.

Genesis makes mistakes or there are two different creations. There is no way Gen 2 is giving what happened in Gen 1. They are DIFFERENT in multiple ways.

Gen 1 is what happened first. Gen 2 is what happened AFTER the day or rest.

Gen 1 is a large creation all over the world. Gen 2 is a small creation only in the garden.

I sincerely would love to continue this topic, but I am reluctant to on an eschatology thread. We should be under general theology or creation theology. This topic has a much deeper theological consideration and is not appropriate intermixing it with another topic.