I appreciate your kind response. I’ve asked the topic be discussed elsewhere, though. People reading debates on the Beginning AND the End simultaneously might feel like they’re at a tennis match… or a really bad car accident! Might prove to be an interesting volley, lol.
The Pre-Trib Rapture
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I appreciate your kind response. I’ve asked the topic be discussed elsewhere, though. People reading debates on the Beginning AND the End simultaneously might feel like they’re at a tennis match… or a really bad car accident! Might prove to be an interesting volley, lol.
That's up to you then, but prophecy is a significant portion of the Bible.
I believe what God says, it's all useful to us.
Your opinion, of course!
Eschatology is more precisely, the study of last things. Nothing "rank" about it.
Much love!
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
Biblically, even though there's ALL SORTS of Prophesy in the Scriptures, there almost NO EVIDENCE Scripturally, that Anybody understood any of it /got it right UNTIL AFTER THE FACT.
Jesus is a prime example - and the JEWS STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN IT 2000 years later.
Daniel comes quickly to mind.
Daniel 9:2-3 KJV
2) In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
3) And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Much love!
Many Jews, and leaders, believed Jesus because they knew the time of the messiah was during their lifetime; the wisemen knew because even they studied Hebrew scripture. Some ancient writings show that an increase in claims of being the messiah in Jesus’ time were resultant of the fact that everyone was actually expecting the Messiah; they just didn’t expect Him to arrive as He did, but they knew.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. So, the point I keep trying to make to him is that the literal method that Christ will use to destroy His enemies at His return is not described in Revelation 19 and is instead described in other passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
In many countries Christians are constantly martyred. That is nothing new, nor a prerequisite for a future specific tribulation.
There is only going to be 3.5 years given over to Satan, 42 months. Revelation 13. After that God will pour out His wrath for 3.5 days. The same time period as the two witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. Revelation 11 and 16.
The Second Coming is the next event to happen.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If you don't know where you came from, how are you going to understand where you are going?
Yeah, some people get stuck on how to divide the line between literal and metaphoric or symbolic. I suspect that some are taught that the “Bible is literal,” and they take it to mean that Revelation’s metaphors are also literal descriptions of creatures and events.
That seems like a philosophical question meant for another topic… perhaps, Philosophy. In all fairness, if the bus I board says “End of Line,” I’m not going to try to badger the driver about turning around and driving me back to the ‘beginning of the line’ when I knew I needed to be on the other bus that is still waiting for me… I’m heading to a bus going that direction. I think we should all be on the bus that’s “going our direction.”
I believe in a pre-Trib rapture, for the Sav-ED.
Also During the Trib, Much Death will occur, Some “will be” Sav-ED, Some not.
The End of Days (as we know them)...
What we know NOW, is “division”.
What shall be, is “separation” of the “divided”.
We are “divided” now in all things. Gender, Ages, Races, Beliefs, Nations, Governments, With, Without the Lord, God, Committed, Not Committed, etc.
We the “divided” (Earthlings, ie terrestrials, Animal-Kind, and Man-Kind, as well as celestials angels, heavenly, fallen)...routinely suffer “tribulations” of one against the other.
The End of Days, is Gods Tribulation(S), to “separate”.
All (terrestrials/celestials) will be “addressed”, “kept or separated” with or from The Lord God.
“The Tribulation Parts” (so to speak)...have several elements, for specific purposes.
*Seals (7), Trumps (7), Vials (7).
(Each contain a purposed intent and Wrath)
*The 3.5 divisions, is an overall, yet specific to ISRAEL, fulfilling Gods promise to ISRAEL, “Gods People” with Him from the beginning, making way for their inclusion Salvation, of, by, through, WITH Christ.
*The undecided, Jew or Gentile.
*The uncommitted, Jew or Gentile.
*Combination...The Lord Saving, The Devil given power to Control.
*Doesn’t matter, Which, —> Allegiance to God —>or Allegiance to Devil
(Body’s will suffer Wrath, and Body’s WILL Die)
(Suffer Wrath of Lamb, for rejecting Him.
(Suffer Wrath of Devil, for rejecting him.
(Suffer Wrath of God, for rejecting Him.
(Suffer Vengeance of God, for men who persecuted Believers.
* It’s a strange time;
Spiritually Saving, Physical Suffering, Spiritually Separating.
* And thereafter Stranger Yet, in that ALL manKIND (so to speak appear in Court, on the same Day).
(Can you imagine all the earthly Prisoners, with all their Different Causes Being in Prison, Being Judged and Sentenced at the Same time?
Think ONE single case can be complicated, really? All before the court at the same time?)
So Why “pre-Trib” ? Why would some/ANY, not be subject to Gods Tribulation, Wrath of the Lamb, (Seals) Wrath of the Devil, (Trumps) Wrath of God, (Vials) ?
Why “pre-Trib” ? Not having to Be Body Killed (martyred) for Standing With God? or Because of standing with the Devil?
A few reasons...
1) Most importantly, BECAUSE, They already willingly LAID down their Bodily Life unto Death, FOR their “COMMITTED” Belief In the Lord God.
(Remember? Crucified with Christ?)
2) They were already Forgiven.
3) They were already soul Sav-ED.
4) They were already born again, with Gods Seed.
5) They Have the Spirit (power) of God, dwelling IN Them.
6) They already Have the Full Armor of God.
Remember...Gods End of Days Tribulation is for Separating the Divided.
* The “committed”...”CONVERTED”...
Body already Died, with, for, IN, Christ.
Soul saved (restored)
Spirit quickened (born again)
Gods Spirit dwells IN them.
* They are Already Separated. <— Scripturally Called SANCTIFIED. (1 Cor 6:11)
* Sanctified-ED...past tense. Accomplish-ED. Not waiting for it to come to pass. Already done. Doesn’t require a repeat.
Why would the Lambs Wrath fall upon them? Is the Lamb angry at them for COMMITTING to Him?
And the Devil’s Wrath...Isn’t that man Already KEPT from the Devil’s Influence and Wrath, by Gods Indwelling Spirit?
And Gods Wrath...Is God angry at them for COMMITTING to Him?
Remember...Nothing new under the sun, what was, shall be again.
* Gods FIRST, show of His Great Disappointment of Wickedness of men Upon the face of the Earth...Great Wrath...Great Destruction...Great Deaths...Great Flood.
* And God Sav-ED....8 faithful manKind.
* How?
Changed them so they could breathe under water?
Sent them pack animals, food supply, hiking boots, so they could scurry up to a mountain top?
Sent flying holy angels to swoop them up above the flood?
...God Prepared Noah and his Family.
...God instructed Noah, exactly How to Build an Ark, when to enter.
...God shut the door, once they entered. (They could Not exit).
...For SEVEN Days, they were IN the Ark, BEFORE the rain began.
Any OF ^ that beginning to sound familiar?
A man being instructed, (in Gods Word), prepared, (committed IN Christ), Kept IN Faith by the Power of God, (Spirit of God IN a man)
7 years safe In Christ, while the Earth is in turmoil...
WHERE did that ARK go?
Turn and Twist capsizing, sink INTO the rising waters?
Or Rise UP off the face of the earth?
* The Earth IS DRY LAND. Destruction OF the Earth, was making ALL DRY LAND....not DRY!
* The ARK rose UP on the Face of the RISING Water. (Gen 7:18)
(Not IN, Not THROUGH, UPON the water)
* The ARK rose UP Above the Earth. (Gen 7:17)
HOW HIGH? Approx 22 ft above the Mt. peaks. (Gen 7-20)
* Mentioning; HEAVEN(S) (Deut. 10:14)
(In context per Scriptures, of where IS the Heaven(S). (Pss 145:13)
How many “levels” of Heaven? (2 Cor 12:2)
* Clouds in Mt Peaks ?
* Airplanes fly through clouds?
* God called Moses to...the Mt Top?
Noah’s ark UP IN the clouds?
Raptured, Sav-ed men in Christ UP TO the clouds?
[QUOTE[ Families will be enemies in their our homes,friends will turn you in for your faith. [/QUOTE]
Already happening. Some nations men study Scripture in Secret. Hide Religious Writings. Tattling Already in effect. Even US has HOT LINE call numbers for tattling on neighbors “gathering”, neighbors “activities”, churches “gathering”.
Remember...
Believing IS ONE THING; <— That individual, KEEPS Believing, by
his own willpower. (Remember the Warnings, endure, endure, endure, keep believing until the day one Dies?)
And the WARNING of how hard that is, Because of Wicked men constantly Enticing men to BELIEVE IN MEN? Men will provide, men will keep safe, men will save? And constantly subject to Evil spirits roaming the earth?
* How much MORE during the Great Tribulation SHALL that (keep enduring to BELIEVE)...be WHEN, Satan is ALLOWED to rule the world?
I do not KEEP BELIEVING, by my own “WILLPOWER”.
The beauty, perk so to speak, advantage, awesome Gift from God...
IS, I am KEPT IN BELIEF, by the POWER of Gods Spirit IN Me.
(I am already prepared, IN the Ark /so to speak/ Door shut/, can not go out, matters not what day God begins sending His Tribulations, and Wrath upon the face of the Earth, He has already prepared the LIFT UP to the clouds, for the Converted (Separat-ED) above the face of the Earth, while He instigates, and Allows Death and Destruction Upon the face of the Earth)
No need for me to hang around on the Earth, be tested, be martyred...
Already gave by BODY dead, For my Belief In the Lord God.
Agree. The Vials poured out are expressly upon those whose Rejected the Lord God, made their allegiance to Satan, AND persecuted those WITH the Lord God...
Uh. Those coming into committed belief IN the Lord God during the Trib will not suffer that event.......BECAUSE they WILL ALL BE BODILY Dead.
(Excusing a few, a remnant, and highly unlikely, “gentiles”.)
The few lines of Scripture in Thes. Speaks directly about the Rapture (catching up) of those IN Christ...but the study is much broader, OF WHY.
While this post is lengthy, it is brief on the deeper study of WHY men Converted in Christ are NOT going to be ON earth during Gods end of days Tribulation.
Just sharing a bit of a deeper perspective.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
How could the Jews possibly get it when it is prophesied that part of them will not get it until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in?
Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
It is prophesied that the Jews were to be God's 1st harvest, but they served other gods, so they will not be the 1st harvest. God wanted the fathers of the Jews to be the firstfruits of the harvest. It is the Gentiles that will be the first harvest, hence, the Pretribulation Rapture.
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
The Gentiles must first be raptured before God turns His attention to the Jews. The Pretribulation rapture will happen before the 70th week of Daniel as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I would think studying end times would be important so you would understand that you can escape all these things that will come to pass during the 70th week of Daniel.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Keraz
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It doesn't work that way.
Luke 21:34-35 are quite clear; the great testing time will come upon everybody. And Luke 21:35 does not mean that anyone can escape it, just that we need to ask for the strength to endure through it all. 1 Peter 4:12 confirms this.
Seems you are not familiar with what is involved with Conversion, in that you apply to yourself that which applies to an old vulnerable heart.
Hello! Satan belongs in a spiritual prison not a physical brick prison. That is not hard to grasp.
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
Satan is cast to the bottomless pit for one thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3) “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
They have already been presented a hundred times. When will people learn that "the Tribulation" is for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked? Christians will have trials, testings, and tribulations, but they are quite different from "the Tribulation" and "the Great Tribulation". These are periods of divine judgments such as have never been, nor will ever be again: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21).
A lot of Bible students read Matthew 24 in isolation to its parallel accounts in the other gospels and therefore miss out on a lot of light in regard to what Jesus was actually talking about. It it’s fair to say that Matthew compresses together the two separate events in focus (AD 70 and the final return of Christ at the end) in his account more than the two parallel accounts of Mark and Luke. Mark and Luke's accounts better show the distinction between these two events a lot clearer. Together they shed much light on these two incidents.
Another mistake that many eschatology students seem to make is that they ignore the introduction to Matthew 24 (in Matthew 23:32-36) which gives us a real sense of what we are looking at in this challenging (and much-debated) chapter. This passage sets the stage and context for what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24. These 2 chapters and their parallel accounts also help us understand Daniel 9. In Matthew 23 we see Christ condemning the Jews rejection of Himself (and His impending atonement). He thus pronounced eight ‘woes’ upon them, and then declared, “Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation” (Matthew 23:32-36).
Christ here reveals the staggering magnitude of the judgment that was about to befall the Jews (of “this generation”), their capital and their centre of worship. They would receive the awesome punishment for all the innocent blood shed by God’s elect for the faith up until then. The Lord said: “upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.” This generation of Jews, who would eventually brutally crucify the King of glory, would receive the full recompense of all the wicked acts that were perpetrated by their “fathers.”
The whole great tribulation in view in the aforementioned passages is a consequence of the Jews rejection of Messiah and expressly emanates from God.
In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.
Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!
Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.
Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.
Matthew 24:3 records:
1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
Mark 13:4 records:
1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”
Luke 21:7 records:
1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”
Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
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