National Covenant

[covenantee]

Israel is a single ethnic nation, originating from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and consisting of a melting pot of all 12 tribes, now referred to as the "Jewish People."

Debunked previously both mathematically and empirically.

We're all ethnically "Jewish People".

 

[Marty fox]

Galatians 3:23-29

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

No hint of Israeli politics.

Why are you unable to cite anyone from Church history who supports your perspective?

I gave you evidence of the larger NT sense of Israeli deliverance at the coming of Christ, and you deny it by citing only Col 1.13? This is what I mean by your arguments consisting only of, "I say," or "I believe, therefor it is."

NT salvation for Israel consists of Christ coming back to realize the Jewish Hope, "next year in Jerusalem," and "never again." When Jesus comes back, he will deliver Israel from all the nations around them, as Zech 14 indicates, and it will be a deliverance from Gentile oppression, as indicated by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

This is the context for Paul speaking of Christ coming back to Israel as "deliverer." He isn't delivering them from demonic possession, nor from sickness, nor from being spiritually lost. Rather, he is coming to deliver them from their enemies with the prospect of delivering only those willing to repent. Then Israel can be rebuilt from the ground up, consisting only of those willing to confess Christ.

There are lots and lots of support for my position from Church history. Premillennialism has been around a long time.

click
Premillennialism, or chiliasm as it was known in the early church, was the earliest of the three millennial systems to arise. Church historian Philip Schaff explains:

The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age is the prominent chiliasm or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers.13

click
According to the Word of God, Israel will not find true deliverance from her enemies until it is secured for her by the kings of the east. Her last war has not yet been fought. The book of Revelation describes an alliance with some powerful defenders who finally destroy the oppressors of Israel and establish her in eternal security. Those allies are given the enigmatic title “kings of the east” in Revelation 16:12. They actually intervene to deliver Israel during the war of Armageddon, described in the Bible as the final conflict to take place on this planet. All nations will be involved in this battle, but Israel will be the only victor.

There are many, many such references available. Your ignorance about the subject doesn't in the least mean nobody holds to similar beliefs as mine.

The truth is, virtually all of my beliefs are based on those who have gone before me. I'm not original. God's word preceded us all. We conform to it--it doesn't conform to us. He is Lord, and we are His subjects. God put teachers in the Church, and He expects us to try to learn and discern what is true and what is not. It is not a pride trip.

 

[covenantee]

I gave you evidence of the larger NT sense of Israeli deliverance at the coming of Christ, and you deny it by citing only Col 1.13? This is what I mean by your arguments consisting only of, "I say," or "I believe, therefor it is."

NT salvation for Israel consists of Christ coming back to realize the Jewish Hope, "next year in Jerusalem," and "never again." When Jesus comes back, he will deliver Israel from all the nations around them, as Zech 14 indicates, and it will be a deliverance from Gentile oppression, as indicated by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

This is the context for Paul speaking of Christ coming back to Israel as "deliverer." He isn't delivering them from demonic possession, nor from sickness, nor from being spiritually lost. Rather, he is coming to deliver them from their enemies with the prospect of delivering only those willing to repent. Then Israel can be rebuilt from the ground up, consisting only of those willing to confess Christ.

There are lots and lots of support for my position from Church history. Premillennialism has been around a long time.

click
Premillennialism, or chiliasm as it was known in the early church, was the earliest of the three millennial systems to arise. Church historian Philip Schaff explains:

The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age is the prominent chiliasm or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers.13

click
According to the Word of God, Israel will not find true deliverance from her enemies until it is secured for her by the kings of the east. Her last war has not yet been fought. The book of Revelation describes an alliance with some powerful defenders who finally destroy the oppressors of Israel and establish her in eternal security. Those allies are given the enigmatic title “kings of the east” in Revelation 16:12. They actually intervene to deliver Israel during the war of Armageddon, described in the Bible as the final conflict to take place on this planet. All nations will be involved in this battle, but Israel will be the only victor.

There are many, many such references available. Your ignorance about the subject doesn't in the least mean nobody holds to similar beliefs as mine.

The truth is, virtually all of my beliefs are based on those who have gone before me. I'm not original. God's word preceded us all. We conform to it--it doesn't conform to us. He is Lord, and we are His subjects. God put teachers in the Church, and He expects us to try to learn and discern what is true and what is not. It is not a pride trip.

What historic premil espoused your notion that Romans 9:27;11:26 are about Israeli geopolitics?

Name, date, source, and verbatim quote; please.

 

[Timtofly]

But the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are not prophesied to repent. God is about to destroy them and only a small Christian remnant will survive. THIS is the truth of Bible Prophecy

Can you find the word "repent" once in Matthew 25:31-46? These sheep never repented. They were not the church. These sheep were chosen despite their failure as humans.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, I could quote a thousand places in an environmental handbook where "green" refers to "unpolluted." But that doesn't mean "green" can't be used elsewhere for the color of a tree or grass.

"Salvation" in the NT is being applied to pagans who are converting to the God of Israel. It isn't yet about the Christianization of nations because the Gospel began with individuals and small groups. Later, entire nations would convert to Christianity.

But the context in which Paul refers to Israel's salvation in Rom 11 has to do with deliverance from enemies. Of course, that requires spiritual salvation, which was always a part of obedience to the Law. Obeying the Law was both spiritual and material. It brought spiritual relationship between Israel and God. And it brought deliverance from divine judgment through repentance from sin.

So "salvation" can be applied to spiritual healing or it can apply to political deliverance, which of course also involves spiritual healing. Unless one gets spiritually healed, and repents, he or she will not be able to find deliverance from oppressors.

This clearly has its context in OT types of political deliverance, and not spiritual healing alone:

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

You see, the 1st part has to do with spiritual healing, in experiencing a deliverance from a hardening of heart. But the 2nd part follows the spiritual healing, when the heart is softened, and Israel then is able to experience "deliverance."

As we are told, the "Deliverer will come." This means Christ comes to deliver Israel from her enemies, since she is now willing to repent, or prepared for that to happen.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The Deliverer does not turn away Israel's enemies.
He turns away their ungodliness.
The Deliverer does not take away Israel's enemies.
He takes away their sins.

Nothing to do with Israeli geopolitics.

 

[Keraz]

a melting pot of all 12 tribes, now referred to as the "Jewish People."

I see this idea as the main problem for people who assign the Prophesies about a final redemption of Israel, to the present nation.
That all the 12 tribes are NOT yet rejoined is proved in many ways:
Judah is not as many as the sands if the sea, their numbers are countable. At present roughly 30 million.

Ezekiel 37 remains unfulfilled.

Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 12:14-16 and Jeremiah 50:4-5, +, prove that there will be a cataclysmic event which will depopulate the entire Middle East region and only then will all of the holy Land be cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

There are many other proofs of a soon to happen, dramatic change to our world. The Prophesies clearly describe it, why be unaware and unprepared?

 

[Keraz]

Can you find the word "repent" once in Matthew 25:31-46? These sheep never repented. They were not the church. These sheep were chosen despite their failure as humans.

Ethnic Israel was un-chosen because of their sins
Jesus chose new 'sheep', John 10:1-27, and they are all the faithful Believers of Him, they keep the Commandments and look forward to His glorious Return.

 

[Timtofly]

Ethnic Israel was un-chosen because of their sins
Jesus chose new 'sheep', John 10:1-27, and they are all the faithful Believers of Him, they keep the Commandments and look forward to His glorious Return.

There is no repentance in those verses. No one has to repent in the church?

 

[Randy Kluth]

What historic premil espoused your notion that Romans 9:27;11:26 are about Israeli geopolitics?

Name, date, source, and verbatim quote; please.

The entire Dispensationalist Premillennial school has been teaching this. Where have you been?

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do share their belief that Christ is coming back to deliver Israel from her enemies. It is all over the internet! Do a search for yourself. The historic Amillennial teachers would not support this because their theology prohibits it. However, prior to Origen in the Early Church you can probably find material in the Church Fathers.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The Deliverer does not turn away Israel's enemies.
He turns away their ungodliness.
The Deliverer does not take away Israel's enemies.
He takes away their sins.

Nothing to do with Israeli geopolitics.

Again you turn to mere *assertions.* Zero value in that.

I gave you a basis for my beliefs, including early Premillennialism, as well as OT passages indicating that God is coming in the Eschaton to deliver Israel from her enemies. I don't know what you do with passages like Zech 14 and Eze 38-39, but you're entitled to believe what you want.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see this idea as the main problem for people who assign the Prophesies about a final redemption of Israel, to the present nation.
That all the 12 tribes are NOT yet rejoined is proved in many ways:
Judah is not as many as the sands if the sea, their numbers are countable. At present roughly 30 million.

As has been stated before, the Bible considered it fulfilled well back into the past.

2 Sam 17.11 “So I advise you: Let all Israel, from Dan to Beersheba—as numerous as the sand on the seashore—be gathered to you, with you yourself leading them into battle."

Ezekiel 37 remains unfulfilled.

No, I don't completely agree--that's a half-truth, which is basically untrue. The unity of the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah was accomplished in the return of Judah in the Persian Restoration. There were no longer two kingdoms, since the northern kingdom perished forever.

However, the Davidic Kingdom remains future. This prophecy isn't saying that these things happen simultaneously--only that one is part and parcel with the other. That is, the Messianic Kingdom is not going to come for a divided Kingdom of Israel, which had existed just prior to Ezekiel's day. That Kingdom is going to come for a single nation of Israel.

It is the same thing with Jeremiah's prophecy of the New Covenant. That prophecy speaks of the coming of Israel's eschatological restoration. But it also mentions the New Covenant.

The New Covenant, however, is not stated to take place *at the same time* as the eschatological salvation of Israel. Rather, it is stated to be a precursor, a necessary antecedent, to bringing about the final deliverance of Israel. The New Covenant takes place at Christ's 1st Coming, but will actually take place *for Israel* in the Eschaton.

Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 12:14-16 and Jeremiah 50:4-5, +, prove that there will be a cataclysmic event which will depopulate the entire Middle East region and only then will all of the holy Land be cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

There are many other proofs of a soon to happen, dramatic change to our world. The Prophesies clearly describe it, why be unaware and unprepared?

There have been many dramatic, cataclysmic events that have taken place in history, not the least of which was the Flood of Noah's time. I also believe what Jesus said, that things will become like it was in Noah's time, a lawless world that is doomed to experience cataclysmic, climactic judgment.

None of this means the world will pass away. The elements will melt from nuclear bombs going off, the sky will turn dark with mushroom clouds, but the passing away for the sun and moon would just be poetic imagery for massive conflict on earth. As horrible and as destructive as this will be, namely a kind of "3rd world war" as such, it won't be the end of human civilization, nor of the earth itself.

 

[Keraz]

There is no repentance in those verses. No one has to repent in the church?

People repent when they become Christian. Or they should do!

No wonder you get adverse reactions to your posts. Your comments are off topic and irrelevant.

The entire Dispensationalist Premillennial school has been teaching this

Yes, the usual dispy teaching is that the Jewish State of Israel will eventually repent of their sins and accept Jesus.
This idea is essential to make the pre-trib 'rapture to heaven' work. All of it is false teachings.

That this idea is error and won't happen, is proved by many scriptures which tell of the virtual demise of Judah and the establishment of a new Christian nation in all of the holy Land.

 

[covenantee]

The entire Dispensationalist Premillennial school has been teaching this. Where have you been?

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do share their belief that Christ is coming back to deliver Israel from her enemies. It is all over the internet! Do a search for yourself. The historic Amillennial teachers would not support this because their theology prohibits it. However, prior to Origen in the Early Church you can probably find material in the Church Fathers.

You're the one claiming the material exists.

So back up your claim with hard evidence.

Name, source, date, verbatim quote

Specifically asserting that Romans 9:27 is about Israel's remnant's geopolitical salvation, not the salvation of her souls.

Otherwise, your claim is null and void.

 

[covenantee]

Again you turn to mere *assertions.* Zero value in that.

My assertions originate directly in the associated Scripture.

Yours do not.

 

[Keraz]

As has been stated before, the Bible considered it fulfilled well back into the past.

2 Sam 17.11 “So I advise you: Let all Israel, from Dan to Beersheba—as numerous as the sand on the seashore—be gathered to you, with you yourself leading them into battle."

This is disingenuous.
That battle happened before the two Houses - Israel and Judah; separated. 1 Kings 12:20-24

Why must you hold onto wrong beliefs? There cannot be a general redemption of apostate Judah. If God did that, He would be guilty of favouritism and of making every other apostate and sinner to go to the Lake of Fire.
A Jew, now cut off from the Tree, which is Jesus; Romans 11:20-21, must accept Jesus now, it will be too late after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

No, I don't completely agree--that's a half-truth, which is basically untrue. The unity of the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah was accomplished in the return of Judah in the Persian Restoration. There were no longer two kingdoms, since the northern kingdom perished forever.

Quite wrong.
What will happen when they do rejoin, remains unfulfilled; Ezekiel 37:20-28

There have been many dramatic, cataclysmic events that have taken place in history, not the least of which was the Flood of Noah's time. I also believe what Jesus said, that things will become like it was in Noah's time, a lawless world that is doomed to experience cataclysmic, climactic judgment.

Quite right.
There is coming a very dramatic event, which has been fully described by all the Prophets. There is no need to speculate, WW3 and nukes, etc; as what happened in Noah's time was God's doing, again it will be God who instigates a fiery punishment upon His enemies. Hebrews 10:27

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, the usual dispy teaching is that the Jewish State of Israel will eventually repent of their sins and accept Jesus.
This idea is essential to make the pre-trib 'rapture to heaven' work. All of it is false teachings.

That this idea is error and won't happen, is proved by many scriptures which tell of the virtual demise of Judah and the establishment of a new Christian nation in all of the holy Land.

Though I'm not a Dispensationalist, you prove my point. There have been *lots* of teaching about the final deliverance of Israel from their enemies. But there is absolutely *nothing* about the international Church becomes a political nation in the geographical region of national Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is disingenuous.
That battle happened before the two Houses - Israel and Judah; separated. 1 Kings 12:20-24

I have no idea what you're talking about. What "battle" did you think I was referencing? You must be terribly confused? I'm simply stating that the 2 kingdoms of Israel and Judah were separated before the time of Ezekiel, and then were no longer separated when the restoration of Judah took place during the reign of Cyrus.

Why must you hold onto wrong beliefs? There cannot be a general redemption of apostate Judah. If God did that, He would be guilty of favouritism and of making every other apostate and sinner to go to the Lake of Fire.
A Jew, now cut off from the Tree, which is Jesus; Romans 11:20-21, must accept Jesus now, it will be too late after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

No, there are lots of people who reject or haven't accepted Jesus now who will do so later--both Jew and non-Jew. Why do you persist in ignoring this fact?

The prophecies outlining Judah's sins do not prevent future generations from repenting. And it had happened exactly as such in OT times!

 

[Randy Kluth]

You're the one claiming the material exists.

So back up your claim with hard evidence.

Name, source, date, verbatim quote

Specifically asserting that Romans 9:27 is about Israel's remnant's geopolitical salvation, not the salvation of her souls.

Otherwise, your claim is null and void.

Well, let me take a 2nd look at this. It is a real good question in some respects. I don't know about your attitude, but let me treat the subject more seriously.

In the Early Church, the need was to address the change from OT to NT, from exclusively things Jews to things international, and from things foundational and less to things concluding time, or eschatological.

I do recall in reading some of the church fathers that there was, at least one one occasion, a recognition that God may still restore Israel, though I will have to search for that--don't even remember which Church Father? I will see if I can find it.

But for the reasons just mentioned, there came to be a lot of contradictory opinion. For some, like Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Victorinus, there was some speculation on futurism, such as Dispensationalists have today. There was some notion of Dan 9 and the 70th Week much like Dispensationalists have today (I disagree with that approach, but am futurist).

Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse/AoD thought was historical, focusing on the time of Jesus and on the initial reaction of the Jews against Christianity and on their imminent destruction in 70 AD. So futurism, though present, was not focused on the detail of whether or not Israel would figure in some kind of political deliverance.

Armageddon, however, was seen as actual military combat. And Israel's salvation may have been noted more as a final acknowledgement of what they had historically rejected. "They shall look on him who then pierced."

I'll try to deal with this more seriously in the future. I apologize if I got a bit rude.

 

[covenantee]

I'm not going to encourage your laziness. If something is literally all over the internet, and you demand specific proof, you're either horribly ignorant or extremely lazy. I happen to think you just want me to provide material so you can bash it. It's there, friend. Be a good and honest student.

The claimant bears the burden of proof.

As expected, you can prove nothing, and your claim is null and void.