The Gospel

[FHII]

The word translated "commit" there is a present tense verb which means literally "is doing." The Greek present tense indicates repeated or continuous action. This is not open to dispute. It's a fact. John is talking about an ongoing lifestyle, not the occasional slip up. The ESV translates this verse properly:

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

well then, you better check your facts. You got it backwards....

 

[Prentis]

no...tell me what that means again Prentis and we'll go right the way through it as we have already done before... :huh:

It means we must produce fruit with the grace given us.

[sup]7[/sup] For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [sup]8[/sup] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

 

[FHII]

Really? James taught that Jews are saved by faith + works. Peter didn't seem to think so:

Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. . .

Act 15:11 . . .But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

I agree... That is what James taught. Peter didn't think so but it took some doing on God's part to show him that. Paul never believed it. Glad we are on the same page.

 

[Nomad]

well then, you better check your facts. You got it backwards....

How do I have it backwards? What I presented regarding the Greek text is a fact. It's not my opinion.

 

[FHII]

Episkopos lays it out well.

Reconciliation and sanctification are both part of the process of salvation. Unless we continue to the end, we do not receive the reward.

We cannot have it both ways! Lip service will not do for the Lord. We must be faithful and persevere to the end.

Grace is freely given for the purpose that we might stand and do the works of the Father. He who uses it apropriately and builds with gold, silver and precious stones will inherit the promises.

The Bible doesn't say its a process. We were sanctified once for all by the offering of the Body of Jesus Christ. Romans 5:10 says we were also reconciled by the death of his Son. The word is used twice in that verse, both times its past tense. Its already been done.

 

[Nomad]

I agree... That is what James taught. Peter didn't think so but it took some doing on God's part to show him that. Paul never believed it. Glad we are on the same page.

Really? You're saying that James was in error and God allowed it to become part of inspired Scripture? This is the first time I ever heard such nonsense.

 

[FHII]

How do I have it backwards? What I presented regarding the Greek text is a fact. It's not my opinion.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (G4160) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

From Strongs Greek dictionary:

Commit G4160
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4238
prassō
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

Really? You're saying that James was in error and God allowed it to become part of inspired Scripture? This is the first time I ever heard such nonsense.

you should look into James a bit more, then.

 

[Nomad]

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (G4160) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

From Strongs Greek dictionary:

Commit G4160
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

Strong's gives you a basic definition. It does not give you the meaning of every verbal inflection that is found in the NT. We're not dealing with the form "poieo" in 1 John 3:9. The word found in 1 John 3:9 is "poiei" which is the present active indicitive 3rd person singular form of "poieo." Again, the Greek present tense indicates continuous action. "Poiei" literally means "is doing." The ESV's translation is correct. The KJV's reading is misleading.

 

[FHII]

Strong's gives you a basic definition. It does not give you the meaning of every verbal inflection that is found in the NT. We're not dealing with the form "poieo" in 1 John 3:9. The word found in 1 John 3:9 is "poiei" which is the present active indicitive 3rd person singular form of "poieo." Again, the Greek present tense indicates continuous action. "Poiei" literally means "is doing." The ESV's translation is correct. The KJV's reading is misleading.

Thanks.... I'll stick with the KJV....

 

[Nomad]

Thanks.... I'll stick with the KJV....

Then you'll stick with your error.

 

[FHII]

Then you'll stick with your error.

Nomad.... I am not going to play the game of "this version is better than that version." So you stick with yours, and that's fine. If you want to continue debating 1 John 3:9 that's fine too. So here's the ESV:

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

The verse also says we cannot keep sinning. The word cannot means "incapable of". The verse does not say will not keep on sinning. Why can't we? The verse says because we are born of God.

If I am to believe that we must stop the practice of sinning, and we will not keep sinning, then there is a problem for everyone on the planet. Why? because since the day we were born, we started sinning and haven't stopped. We all do practice sinning, but it is not accounted to us.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
But let us not look at the "error filled" KJV.... here it is in the ESV:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;

 

[Nomad]

Nomad.... I am not going to play the game of "this version is better than that version." So you stick with yours, and that's fine. If you want to continue debating 1 John 3:9 that's fine too. So here's the ESV:

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

The verse also says we cannot keep sinning. The word cannot means "incapable of". The verse does not say will not keep on sinning. Why can't we? The verse says because we are born of God.

If I am to believe that we must stop the practice of sinning, and we will not keep sinning, then there is a problem for everyone on the planet. Why? because since the day we were born, we started sinning and haven't stopped. We all do practice sinning, but it is not accounted to us.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
But let us not look at the "error filled" KJV.... here it is in the ESV:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;

This has nothing to do with the debate over translations. But it is a fact that some are better than others. One of the problems suffered by the KJV is that its translation of some Greek verbs is too ambiguous. 1 Jn. 3:9 is case in point. Like I said, this a fact and beyond dispute, your stubborn misunderstanding notwithstanding.

I already explained what John is saying. He's responding to a certain variety of early gnostic who believed that as long as your spirit is saved through the "enlightenment" that only they possessed, you are free to sin with your flesh all you want, because in their minds God wouldn't have anything to do with the "flesh." John responds that those who are born of God do not live sinful lives with their flesh as if no change had taken place within them at all. It sounds to me like you're trying to propagate this old gnostic heresy.

 

[FHII]

This has nothing to do with the debate over translations. But it is a fact that some are better than others. One of the problems suffered by the KJV is that its translation of some Greek verbs is too ambiguous. 1 Jn. 3:9 is case in point. Like I said, this a fact and beyond dispute, your stubborn misunderstanding notwithstanding.

I already explained what John is saying. He's responding to a certain variety of early gnostic who believed that as long as your spirit is saved through the "enlightenment" that only they possessed, you are free to sin with your flesh all you want, because in their minds God wouldn't have anything to do with the "flesh." John responds that those who are born of God do not live sinful lives with their flesh as if no change had taken place within them at all. It sounds to me like you're trying to propagate this old gnostic heresy.

The Bible says faith and works do not mix. I am not defending sin, I am defending grace. Grace covers all sins of the flesh. You seem to be saying that once we have grace, somehow we keep it by not sinning.

 

[Nomad]

The Bible says faith and works do not mix. I am not defending sin, I am defending grace. Grace covers all sins of the flesh. You seem to be saying that once we have grace, somehow we keep it by not sinning.

I've said no such thing. As a matter of fact I made it perfectly clear in my first post here today that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. I also said that works are the fruit of salvation, not the cause thereof. How did you miss all of this?

Once again, John makes it perfectly clear that we will in fact sin, and there is provision for that in Christ, (1 John 1:8, 9). This isn't what he's saying in chapter 3 as I've already made it clear many times now. Yes, believers sin, but those born of God do not take the attitude that they can sin all they want with impunity. There lives are not characterized by a willful, ongoing sinful lifestyle, again, as if they were never regenerated. This is what John is teaching against the gnostics. I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

 

[FHII]

I've said no such thing. As a matter of fact I made it perfectly clear in my first post here today that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. I also said that works are the fruit of salvation, not the cause thereof. How did you miss all of this?

Yea, but you aren't the only one in the conversation. As for works beign the fruit of salvation, I'd disagree.

Once again, John makes it perfectly clear that we will in fact sin, and there is provision for that in Christ, (1 John 1:8, 9). This isn't what he's saying in chapter 3 as I've already made it clear many times now. Yes, believers sin, but those born of God do not take the attitude that they can sin all they want with impunity. There lives are not characterized by a willful, ongoing sinful lifestyle, again, as if they were never regenerated. This is what John is teaching against the gnostics. I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

I have news for you.... We all have a willful and ongoing sinful lifestyle in the eyes of God, IF NOT covered by grace. Everyone from the squeekiest clean home economics teacher to the heavy metal rock and roller. Johns overall message is not that we must quit "willfully sinning". He does preach in this chapter love the brethren, but verse 8-10 in no way say we somehow have to stop sinning. It says we cannot [impossible to do] sin if we are under grace. Otherwise, we have to figure out where the line is on the sin list.

In other words, your explanation is wrong.

Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
(Romans 5:20 ESV)

 

[Nomad]

In other words, your explanation is wrong.

Really? Let's look again using your precious KJV:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So John contradicts himself? There's no difference between sinning and practicing sin as a lifestyle?

 

[FHII]

And another thing.... These gnostics that supposedly preached about sins of the flesh don't matter, or whatever you said.... John doesn't say anything about them. He does talk about people denying Jesus being the Christ, but not about a group of people you claim did whatever they wanted in the the flesh.

So, after claiming the KJV is wrong, Strong's is wrong and that there are a bunch of evil gnostics out there that John preached against.... I'll just bid you fairwell.

 

[Nomad]

And another thing.... These gnostics that supposedly preached about sins of the flesh don't matter, or whatever you said.... John doesn't say anything about them. He does talk about people denying Jesus being the Christ, but not about a group of people you claim did whatever they wanted in the the flesh.

So, after claiming the KJV is wrong, Strong's is wrong and that there are a bunch of evil gnostics out there that John preached against.... I'll just bid you fairwell.

I didn't say Strong's is wrong and I didn't say that the KJV is wrong. I said that the KJV is ambiguous in it's translation of the Greek present tense in 1 John 3:9. You're the 4th person this week to put words in my mouth that I never said. More importantly, you didn't answer my question. Here it is again:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So John contradicts himself? There's no difference between sinning and practicing sin as a lifestyle?

 

[Duckybill]

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Very good point.

our fleshly actions are evidence of our faith.if i quit stealing that is evidence,if i'm not a drunkerd no more that is evidence of faith but if i continue in sin i have no evidence that i have decided to follow JESUS. my works are putting my inward man in subjection to the word of GOD and it shows up in the outward man. B)

True, True, True!

I hope you do not steal, and I hope that you aren't a drunkard. It is not evidence of faith. If a Christian steals, it is unfortunate, but he is still a Christian. Same thing if he is a drunkard.

If you continue in sin, you have no evidence to whom? Man? God does not look at the flesh, nor the things it does, but upon the heart.

Nah.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[FHII]

Very good point.


True, True, True!


Nah.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Go ahead and believe that grace doesn't cover all sin....

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.