The Gospel
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FHII
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I hope you do not steal, and I hope that you aren't a drunkard. It is not evidence of faith. If a Christian steals, it is unfortunate, but he is still a Christian. Same thing if he is a drunkard.our fleshly actions are evidence of our faith.if i quit stealing that is evidence,if i'm not a drunkerd no more that is evidence of faith but if i continue in sin i have no evidence that i have decided to follow JESUS.my works are putting my inward man in subjection to the word of GOD and it shows up in the outward man. B)
If you continue in sin, you have no evidence to whom? Man? God does not look at the flesh, nor the things it does, but upon the heart.
The process of sanctification is the process in continuing in the salvation that we received at redemption. Salvation is a process that continues as long as we live. We can never rest on our accomplishments....or become idle through a warped view of resting on His.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Just for the record, lest any misunderstand my position, I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Works and obedience are the fruit of salvation, not the cause thereof. That being said, I have a few problems with what you've said above.
You say that salvation has nothing to do with our "flesh." This is a gnostic concept. The Apostle John would disagree.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Obviously this doesn't mean that we will never sin at all. John also says:
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The difference here is between a lifestyle characterized by careless sinfulness and sin that results from doing battle with the flesh.
You also claim that our actions are not in any way evidence of our faith. James would disagree.
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Let's not misunderstand here. James is not saying that one gains salvation by good works. He's saying that faith that produces no fruit is not faith at all.
FHII
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What you have done is taken scripture out of context. Please look that up and see what it's talking about.out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks or out of the abundance of the heart the body acts. :mellow: the heart is the rutter and the flesh is the ship
FHII
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James might disagree (as he was still one to mix works with grace), but John doesn't disagree and neither does Paul.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We don't commit sin, because his seed is in us, and we can't sin. Why? because we are born of God. God doesn't even look at the sins of the flesh. They have been covered. John says don't sin, but if we do we have an advocate with the father. There is no division of sins of the flesh, by the way.
It is evidence of God's miracle working power in our lives. This calls for obedience. If a believer sins, he is accountable before God for that sin unless he repents from his heart. However:
Hebrews 10
[sup]26[/sup] If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [sup]27[/sup] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. [sup]28[/sup] Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [sup]29[/sup] How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? [sup]30[/sup] For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[sup][/sup]and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[sup][/sup] [sup]31[/sup] It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Shalom!
Hebrews 10
[sup]26[/sup] If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [sup]27[/sup] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. [sup]28[/sup] Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [sup]29[/sup] How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? [sup]30[/sup] For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[sup][/sup]and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[sup][/sup] [sup]31[/sup] It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Shalom!
FHII
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FHII read between the lines
Nope.... That's a code word for twist scripture to fit your beliefs.
FHII
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Faith is the evidence of things not seen. As for Hebrews 10:26, it is not talking about sin in general, but one particular spiritual sin which keeps faith from happening.
You are talking about faith and I am referring to this post...
your post:
my answer:
sogj, on 30 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:
our fleshly actions are evidence of our faith.if i quit stealing that is evidence,if i'm not a drunkerd no more that is evidence of faith but if i continue in sin i have no evidence that i have decided to follow JESUS.
your post:
my answer:
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I see, so James is in error? Are you saying his epistle is not canonical?
Also, John says that those born of God do not practice sin, he doesn't say that we don't sin.
FHII
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No, James' message was right on to the 12 scattered tribes.
As for John, here it is again:
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
was the code word read?
did you mean "read" as past tense or something you want me to do? If you are saying I red between the lines, I didn't. If you want me to reed between the lines, I won't. There aren't any words there.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
The word translated "commit" there is a present tense verb which means literally "is doing." The Greek present tense indicates repeated or continuous action. This is not open to dispute. It's a fact. John is talking about an ongoing lifestyle, not the occasional slip up. The ESV translates this verse properly:
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
Given freely to those who repent and believe... Like the talent, and we all know what that means!
quoting...
"ByGrace", on 29 October 2011 - 10:45 AM, said:
"The Gospel" = ANYTHING WHICH IS "GOOD NEWS! "
quoting Prentis.
By definition, but the gospel of Christ is only good news for the new man, to the old man it means curcifixion.
After all, the false prophets are accused of saying 'peace, peace' when there is no peace.
Are we able to discern that the same pattern has come to pass today?
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Prentis I have to say I have never seen you with the lack of an answer! haha!
I must say " your good". I may not always agree with you, but I admire your zeal
Blessings...H
This leaves me... uh... hmmm... without an answe! :blink:
:lol:
Just kidding...
Blessings, Helen, good to have you on this site!
no...tell me what that means again Prentis and we'll go right the way through it as we have already done before... :huh:
Episkopos lays it out well.
Reconciliation and sanctification are both part of the process of salvation. Unless we continue to the end, we do not receive the reward.
We cannot have it both ways! Lip service will not do for the Lord. We must be faithful and persevere to the end.
Grace is freely given for the purpose that we might stand and do the works of the Father. He who uses it apropriately and builds with gold, silver and precious stones will inherit the promises.
Reconciliation and sanctification are both part of the process of salvation. Unless we continue to the end, we do not receive the reward.
We cannot have it both ways! Lip service will not do for the Lord. We must be faithful and persevere to the end.
Grace is freely given for the purpose that we might stand and do the works of the Father. He who uses it apropriately and builds with gold, silver and precious stones will inherit the promises.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Really? James taught that Jews are saved by faith + works. Peter didn't seem to think so:
Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. . .
Act 15:11 . . .But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
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