22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Eternally Grateful]

That is your assumption, but it is about the new heavens and new earth. You're not recognizing the figurative text and are assuming it's all literal. But, you should interpret it in such a way that agrees with 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1-4.

whatever dude

You can have that heaven and earth

We are told there will be no death, and no sin.

You want that new earth. Its no better than this earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He spoke of replacement theology. As you all do.

No one spoke of replacement theology. Your view is so weak that all you can do is make false accusations against others. I don't believe anyone is replaced. If you read Romans 11 it shows that Israelite believers are in the cultivated olive tree and remain there as long as they have faith. Those without faith were cut off. Then it indicates that Gentile believers are grafted in as well along with Israelite believers. Who is being replaced there? No one. So, don't tell me that I believe in replacement theology. I don't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

THERE WILL BE NO DEATH

THERE WILL BE NO BIRTHS

THERE WILL BE NO SINNERS LIVING TO 100 YEARS WHO ARE CURSED IN TH NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH

Why is it you are unable to understand small details??

I agree with that, of course. So, you should interpret Isaiah 65:17-25 accordingly. By the way, is your Caps lock key stuck?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

whatever dude

You can have that heaven and earth

We are told there will be no death, and no sin.

You want that new earth. Its no better than this earth.

And, once again, you are misrepresenting my view. No, I don't want a new earth with sin and death. All you have are false accusations. That's it. You're obviously very immature and are in over your head here.

 

[Truth7t7]

THERE IS BIRTH THERE IS DEATH THERE ARE SINNERS WHO ARE CURSED

THATS NOT HEAVEN

People explain it to you. Your stuck in your way, sp you can;t see it.

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well you just ruined it. I thought you could have a normal conversation but your just like the rest.

Do you call your constant dismissals, insults and false accusations "normal conversation"? LOL.

You guys are proud.. You have no desire to discuss,

We're trying to and you just immediately dismiss everything we say along with making false accusations about what we believe.

You think your right and everyone else is wrong.

And you don't? LOL.

Pentecost was able to be seen. In fact Luke wrote the things which happened on that day.

Could the Holy Spirit be seen dwelling inside of people? Come on. Spiritual things can be literal things. Your idea that only physical things that can be seen are literal shows how carnal your thinking is.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You refuse to address the watertight detail I presented to you re the Hebrew, obviously because it exposes your narrative. Yet you continue to relay what you have been taught.

I didn’t understand it any of the times you posted and reposted it, I guess because I speak English and not Hebrew, that’s why I didn’t respond. But I DID post the rest of the verse somewhere, to which I didn’t get a reply from anyone to my recollection. You covered the first of the verse in Hebrew, (which as I said didn’t make any sense to me), but not the rest of the verse. Not that it would have helped if you did because I read and speak in English.

So, I looked it up myself in that Hebrew thingy you used and it said:
For
The child
Old
A hundred
Years
Shall die


but…you know, I just like to read in my own language

 

[jeffweeder]

Good grief man, Paul told gentiles not to boast. That there will be a time when israel repents and are reconciled to God. They are enemies concerning the gospe. But beloved concerning the promises. Gods promises and gifts are irrevocable

The OT says Israel will repent. And be restored. And Jesus will rule

You don’t have to believe it. But that does not make it not true

I believe it.....its been happening for nearly 2000 years. The Israel that repented and followed the Lord established the Church.
Anyone who attaches himself to Gospel NT truth will not come into Judgment and they will reign in life they are living now today....not tomorrow.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
This is the first resurrection (transference from death to life ) we experience as new born babes and the most important one we will get acquainted with. Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

Jn 5 cont...
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. Those who hear and believe are covered and cleansed forever by his own blood, and the second death hath no power at all over us. His grace is sufficient for us Amen.

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

That time is now according to Johns prior revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn’t understand it any of the times you posted and reposted it, I guess because I speak English and not Hebrew, that’s why I didn’t respond. But I DID post the rest of the verse somewhere, to which I didn’t get a reply from anyone to my recollection. You covered the first of the verse in Hebrew, (which as I said didn’t make any sense to me), but not the rest of the verse.

In fairness, the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. Don't you think it's a good idea to try to research what the Hebrew words mean whenever possible in order to aid our understanding?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe it.....its been happening for nearly 2000 years. The Israel that repented and followed the Lord established the Church.
Anyone who attaches himself to Gospel NT truth will not come into Judgment and they will reign in life they are living now today....not tomorrow.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
This is the first resurrection (transference from death to life ) we experience as new born babes and the most important one we will get acquainted with. Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

Jn 5 cont...
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. Those who hear and believe are covered and cleansed forever by his own blood, and the second death hath no power at all over us. His grace is sufficient for us Amen.

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

That time is now according to Johns prior revelation.

Amen, Jeff! The time "now is" when we reign with Christ and the second death has no power over us. The time "now is" when we are "priests of God and of Christ" as the following passages show:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Timtofly]

The key question is: is your billions of mortal rebels that inherit and overrun your alleged future millennium going to "learn war anymore" (as you allege) or are they not?

The Premil millennium has been portrayed for years as some Edenic arrangement with unparalleled bliss and wholesale submission to righteousness, when in fact it is simply more of the same. Basically, their millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding and the bondage of corruption prospering. You have continued death, decay, sickness, funerals, crying, hatred, strife and wickedness prospers. This all ends with the biggest rebellion in history.

This whole Premil presentation is a clear bust. It is a debacle. I am sure glad it is not going to happen.

And you don't have an argument either way. You cannot prove that this is true about the Millennium. You make this stuff up about other people, when you have been shown a clear reasonable Scriptural rebuttal about a resurrection stated clearly in Revelation 20:4. Then you symbolically dismiss it away, with your own private interpretation.

 

[jeffweeder]

Amen, Jeff! The time "now is" when we reign with Christ and the second death has no power over us. The time "now is" when we are "priests of God and of Christ" as the following passages show:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Yes indeed. NT revelation is such an eye opener and a full blessing as we look to the blessed hope of our faith


Titus 2
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And you don't have an argument either way. You cannot prove that this is true about the Millennium. You make this stuff up about other people, when you have been shown a clear reasonable Scriptural rebuttal about a resurrection stated clearly in Revelation 20:4. Then you symbolically dismiss it away, with your own private interpretation.

His own private interpretation shared by millions of others. LOL.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But, no one will mourn when someone dies. Okay then. And, Isaiah started talking about the new heavens and new earth in verse 17 and then inexplicably changed the subject in the next verse. Okay then.

It happens. It’s prophecy. It goes forward and back and has gaps of time even though it’s not announced to us when it happens. For instance like here:
61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,

In fact, that’s not even a few verses apart like the ones we’re discussing but is happening in one sentence. Thousands of years jump within one sentence!
Prophecy just does this in many places.

 

[Timtofly]

You are seeing double on every key prediction in Scripture. Premils wrongly see 2 bindings of Satan, 2 last days periods, 2 NHNEs, 2 resurrection days, 2 judgment days, etc, etc. If you would just correlate these up with each you would see these all occur once. All because of your faulty interpretation of one highly-symbolic Scripture in the most obscure setting in Scripture.

Way more than double. History is not your private singularity with only one judgment.

Adam was judged and kicked out of Paradise. The sons of God were judged in a global Flood. Israel was judged multiple times. God, Himself was the Lamb on the Cross for the judgment of the whole world. The sheep and goat judgment. The wheat and tare judgment. The reward judgment for the glorified church. The 7th Trumpet judgment. The Revelation 20:4 judgment, and the GWT judgment. If you limit judgment to only two, you have not read the entire Bible.

There was a new heaven and earth when sin placed the curse of death and decay, when Adam disobeyed. There was a new earth and heaven at the Flood. There will be a new heaven and earth at the Second Coming.

You are mixing up what a new reality is with a new heaven and earth. Many claim reality prior to this one. You deny any new reality after your alleged eternity. Eternity is not a creation.

Satan was created limited and bound. Unless you think he just figured out on his own how to rebel. I never claimed Satan was ever bound in the past, unless he was created bound. Satan has always had to ask God permission. Satan being bound is symbolic of not getting to do anything but sit there and think. Satan has never had full blown ability to exercise free will.

So no, I am not going to say it has all been the same from the beginning until one single moment of judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It happens. It’s prophecy.

So, I'm sure if I said tha-7t Revelation 21:2 is not about the new heavens and new earth you would think that would be plausible, right?

It goes forward and back and has gaps of time even though it’s not announced to us when it happens. For instance like here:
61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,

In fact, that’s not even a few verses apart like the ones we’re discussing

It's one verse apart that we were discussing. He brings up the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65:17 and you think he changed the subject in verse 18.

but is happening in one sentence. Thousands of years jump within one sentence!
Prophecy just does this in many places.

But, he didn't really change the subject there. The main subject was in relation to the first coming of Christ and Him proclaiming the year of the Lord's favor and that subject continues into verse 3. Referencing "the day of vengeance of our God" is just a side note. That is completely different than what you do with Isaiah 65:17-25. What would be similar in Isaiah 61 is if it first started talking about what Jesus would do at His first coming (I assume you know that's talking about Jesus in verse 1) and then changed the subject to something else entirely in verse 2 and beyond. But, that is not the case. So, this seems like a case of you just dismissing your illogical and unreasonable view that Isaiah brought up the new heavens and new earth in only one verse and then immediately changed the subject.

And there's still that thing where you apparently think a time is coming when people won't weep or mourn over someone's death anymore. You don't seem to have any explanation for that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's one verse apart that we were discussing.

lol, maybe that’s the problem! I thought we were discussing vs 17 and vs 20, which aren’t one verse apart but 3 verses apart. You were discussing vs 17 and verse 18?
Not that it would matter really. If a jump of thousands of years can occur within one sentence then a similar thing could occur (in prophecy) within 2 verses.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

lol, maybe that’s the problem! I thought we were discussing vs 17 and vs 20, which aren’t one verse apart but 3 verses apart. You were discussing vs 17 and verse 18?

The discussion has been that Premils like yourself see Isaiah 65:17 as being about the new heavens and new earth, but verses 18-25 are about a supposed future earthly millennial kingdom. Is that not your belief? If it is then, yes, you believe the subject is changed one verse apart. But, it isn't just that. You believe he brings up the subject of the new heavens and new earth in just one verse and then immediately changes the subject. I challenge you to find any other example in scripture of something like that. And, no, Isaiah 61 doesn't qualify because of what I already explained before.

Imagine if I tried to tell you that Revelation 21:2-7 is not about the new heavens and new earth. Be honest here. What would you think?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

your illogical and unreasonable view

Oops, per my new rule I won’t be responding to this particular post because of this statement. It’s just not the way I want to converse.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The discussion has been that Premils like yourself see Isaiah 65:17 as being about the new heavens and new earth, but verses 18-25 are about a supposed future earthly millennial kingdom.

Nope. I never said the prophecy jumped at the very next verse, verse 18. The only thing I’m certain about is that at least by verse 20, a jump backwards has occurred because I do not think there will be any death at all on the NHNE. I even got into a let’s suppose discussion about the no crying heard by others as to if it could be where the jump occurs when I don’t clearly see a jump until verse 20.
So that’s what I’m focused on - not on supposing but rather on what I DO clearly see.