Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,415
5,021
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
in order for Jesus to have sinned all he would have had to do is what we all do, choose to sin. If Jesus was incapable of sinning, then all his confrontations with sin was just a silly useless game. It means he never overcame anything.
I'm sorry if I missed this but has the conversation expressed equality between 'not having a sin nature' with 'being incapable of sin?"

I ask because I see these as different, one is actual; the other is potential. One is the risk of wrong doing exists; the other displaces the risk with actual wrong doing.

Another interesting question to me is how did Jesus overcome temptation: on his own merit or with the Spirit of God? If he did it on his on merit, then what purpose did his baptism serve? And if he could not be separated from the Spirit of God, then why did the Spirit come to him AFTER his baptism?
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,835
643
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Please explain more. :)

Lets examine a text which talks to Jesus' nature and his purpose.

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),

Hebrews 2:14.

Red text is speaking about us
Blue text is speaking about Jesus
Pink text is speaking to God's work of the Atonement

The word devil here is a personification for sin, a technique Paul uses a lot to help us identify with the issue at hand. Christians need to learn Pauls writting techniques, I tried to show Aunty Jane so many times and she resisted the whole way...so disappointing that something so simple is frustrated by wrong doctrine.

Romans 6:23 shows us again, by personification "The wages of sin is death"... therefore what "had" the power of death for the Lord Jesus Christ is something God removed in His Son - and He did so through the process of death?

The question is how did God do this "through death" - what happened on that cross that removed sin's power?

The word devil is the perfect word for speaking of our nature because it means to falsely accuse. No matter how disciplined a believer might be, they will always sin. Our nature has a bias to sin because its holds desires contrary to the Will of God. In other words it wants to please itself rather than submitting to God's Principles.

This question goes to the heart of the Atonement.

Was the Lord Jesus Christ born into condemnation because he had our nature? i.e flesh and blood condemned to corrupt and return to the dust?

Hebrew 5:7

Hebrews 5:7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion
Hebrews 5:7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears,
to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion

I double up the verse to show that both Jesus and those he saved have been held under the condemnation of death. Jesus Christ knew he needed to be saved from death. This is another proof that he shared our flesh and blood nature.

Now just to prove that is true and correct come back to Hebrews 2L15

Hebrews 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

So the Devil relates to those who dwell in nature which is prone to sin the wages of which is death.

So we conclude that we die for 2 reasons.

1. Born with a nature which is condemned to die and return to the dust.
2. Born with a nature which prompts us to morally sin the wages of which is death

God does not hold us responsible to number 1 - only number 2.

But how does God uphold His righteousness and still able to extend forgiveness and mercy?

HE NEEDS TO PROVE THAT AN OBEDIANT SON WHO HAS OUR NATURE CAN CONQUER ITS LUSTS AND DESIRES EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEATH THEREBY BREAKING ITS HOLD OVER HIM AND DECLARING GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THE WORLD.

This is why Paul states in Romans 8:1

Romans 8:1 There is therefore NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

The condemnation which was in Christ, meaning the sentence of death inherited through the line of Adam was removed in Jesus, having died to obedience, however those in Christ, while not condemned by faith, still die - but its only a sleep until the resurrection. That is why we are baptised into his life, death and resurrection!

The points are this.

God removed the condemnation which was in His Son.
God conquered the flesh and its power to sin through His Son's obedient life
God choose to destroy sins power through its strongest attribute i.e. death

Today we are still called to crucify the flesh and its lusts Galatians 5:24

Add a dual nature and you destroy the work of God
Add trinitarian dogma and you have a fraudulent Jesus who was nothing like his brothers

Hope that helps.

F2F
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,640
13,024
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?
OP ^

A resounding No.

1 John 5:
[
18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John 1:
[
13]
(Jesus) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
will of man, but of God.

John 16:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, (Jesus) and have believed that I (Jesus) came out from God.

Born is a living thing coming OUT FROM a living thing.

The Living WORD of God came OUT FROM the Living God.

First revealed VERBALLY, audibly.
* Thereafter Promised AND revealed IN A BODY God Prepared, in the fashion of a Humbled Jewish Servant man, God SAID call Him, JESUS.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

His SOUL, His SPIRIT, would not suffer Sacrifice.
His PREPARED BODY, was expressly Prepared, to Be SEEN, and SUFFER Sacrifice of DEATH.

He was MANKIND’S example to DO as He DID.
Not, sacrifice ones soul.
Not, sacrifice ones spirit.
Do, Freely sacrifice ones Body unto Death, to become MADE (by the Power of God)..WHOLLY, WHOLE and anew....holy unto God.

 

Blue Dragonfly's

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2022
1,190
582
113
not this Christian parody site
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
True - you have just learned that Jesus cannot be God.
My post never said that.

And the scripture never says anywhere in the new testament that Jesus was not God.

Hebrews 9:11-12

He (Jesus) did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption

Christianity has two problems with this subject.

If Christ didn't share our very nature then God did not truly condemn it and therefore the atonement was a fraud.
If Christ shared our very nature it means he himself must have taken part in the redemptive work else you are still in your sins.

Warning to the would be Christian...get Jesus' nature wrong and the consequences are disastrous. For there are many who don't believe Jesus came the flesh! and you know what they are called!

Never forget - Jesus is the firstborn from the dead - he either is or he isn't!
Jesus was God. He never sinned.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,562
712
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If Jesus were not born of man and with the same sinful nature as all men... and then, though tempted in every way we are, conquering of temptation perfectly and remaining without sin ~ He was able to do so because He is also of God, God made flesh ~ and thereby fulfilling the Law... He would not qualify as our Mediator and Sacrifice, and none of us would have any hope of salvation. And if that were the case, there would be no peace with God, but only the outpouring of His righteous and holy anger and wrath upon us.

But yet
... God did this indescribable, unfathomable thing for us. This is His amazing grace.

Grace and peace to all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr E

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,276
5,335
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A nature which is flesh and blood with the proneness to sin. Paul calls it the "mind of the flesh"

Keeping simple lets discuss this.....what is a sin nature.

Example 1...Family crash lands on tropical island that has no people. Mom and dad die.....little boy 4 years old lives and grows up on island by himself.....Now what is this sin nature going to cause that boy to do between 4 - 30 years old?
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,562
712
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Keeping simple lets discuss this.....what is a sin nature.
Proneness to ~ predisposition toward ~ sin. :)

Example 1...Family crash lands on tropical island that has no people. Mom and dad die.....little boy 4 years old lives and grows up on island by himself.....Now what is this sin nature going to cause that boy to do between 4 - 30 years old?
How sin manifests itself in individuals is quite individualistic. What particular sins individuals are predisposed to varies and is intrinsic to the person regardless of age or exposure to society or lack thereof; people are people.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Blue Dragonfly's

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2022
1,190
582
113
not this Christian parody site
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Keeping simple lets discuss this.....what is a sin nature.

Example 1...Family crash lands on tropical island that has no people. Mom and dad die.....little boy 4 years old lives and grows up on island by himself.....Now what is this sin nature going to cause that boy to do between 4 - 30 years old?
The phrase, sin nature, isn't in the Bible.
Sin is in the world because Satan is lord here.HSatan is here because he was cast out of Heaven where sin gained life,expression, with Satan's rebellion against the rule of God.

When God cast Satan and his fellow rebelling angels out of Heaven , that rebellious adversarial impulse,spirit, was cast out too. God in every sense cleaned house. And sent them all to earth.

We are born sinless.

Yet we are also born as flesh bearing a soul within.Because of that mortal density,flesh,bone, even though the silver cord connects us to Holy Spirit(God), our human nature is atuned to the energies,powers, of the world.

Because what is in the world is what we depend on to survive. We defer to those things by that default setting, so to speak.

Because we take the world so seriously and are preoccupied with availing ourselves of what it has to offer so to survive the flesh, we do not hear the voice of God.

That is so because we are separated from God in our natural flesh state of focus and consciousness toward the world that holds primacy. Because we need sustain ourselves here. Exploiting what the world has to offer while living off the world.

Which as an aside is why the world is now in peril. We stopped living with the eotld, belonging to it, and started living off the world as gluttonous parasites.

That only changes when God's spirit enters in. And gives us perspective.He's always been there within us. We are merely preoccupied with the noise and visuals of this reality and don't necessarily hear him.
But he always knows us.

When we are newborns,children, the things of the world are at the disposal of our parents so to take care of us.

When we're old enough to rationalize and make decisions for ourselves, knowing right from wrong, that is when our human nature unites with the world created by God to sustain the human, being as one created in God's image and likeness.

There is no sin nature.

There is the human nature predisposed to the dual atmosphere of the world. Sin isn't a being,or a living spirit as Satan is. Sin is an atmosphere in contrast to the atmosphere of righteousness.

Sin is acting contrary to God's directives for right living.

The flesh knowing ourselves mortal and impermanent seeks out gratification in the time we have left.
Our perspective is one of, we see it,we believe it, we want it.

The transcendent, the non-visible, doesn't catch you myopic selfish attentions by nature in this flesh.

But it can. Because we are linked to the source,God, by our very being that is entirely of and from God our creator.

When God gets our attention, the bridge is made. We come to realize we are more than perishable flesh ,bone,and carnal appetite.

And that is when, like as when we were innocent babes learning how to crawl and then walk as we gained our confidence, so too do we slowly learn to put that spirit of God, like a transperancy laid over a painting, first in our walk in this life. And therein walk more in the spirit than in the flesh that takes this world so seriously.

That's how I see it anyway.:)
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,276
5,335
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Proneness to ~ predisposition toward ~ sin. :)


How sin manifests itself in individuals is quite individualistic. What particular sins individuals are predisposed to varies and is intrinsic to the person regardless of age or exposure to society or lack thereof; people are people.

Grace and peace to you.

This is the first example....what would that young do on the island that was driven by a sin nature?
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,276
5,335
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The phrase, sin nature, isn't in the Bible.
Sin is in the world because Satan is lord here.HSatan is here because he was cast out of Heaven where sin gained life,expression, with Satan's rebellion against the rule of God.

When God cast Satan and his fellow rebelling angels out of Heaven , that rebellious adversarial impulse,spirit, was cast out too. God in every sense cleaned house. And sent them all to earth.

We are born sinless.

Yet we are also born as flesh bearing a soul within.Because of that mortal density,flesh,bone, even though the silver cord connects us to Holy Spirit(God), our human nature is atuned to the energies,powers, of the world.

Because what is in the world is what we depend on to survive. We defer to those things by that default setting, so to speak.

Because we take the world so seriously and are preoccupied with availing ourselves of what it has to offer so to survive the flesh, we do not hear the voice of God.

That is so because we are separated from God in our natural flesh state of focus and consciousness toward the world that holds primacy. Because we need sustain ourselves here. Exploiting what the world has to offer while living off the world.

Which as an aside is why the world is now in peril. We stopped living with the eotld, belonging to it, and started living off the world as gluttonous parasites.

That only changes when God's spirit enters in. And gives us perspective.He's always been there within us. We are merely preoccupied with the noise and visuals of this reality and don't necessarily hear him.
But he always knows us.

When we are newborns,children, the things of the world are at the disposal of our parents so to take care of us.

When we're old enough to rationalize and make decisions for ourselves, knowing right from wrong, that is when our human nature unites with the world created by God to sustain the human, being as one created in God's image and likeness.

There is no sin nature.

There is the human nature predisposed to the dual atmosphere of the world. Sin isn't a being,or a living spirit as Satan is. Sin is an atmosphere in contrast to the atmosphere of righteousness.

Sin is acting contrary to God's directives for right living.

The flesh knowing ourselves mortal and impermanent seeks out gratification in the time we have left.
Our perspective is one of, we see it,we believe it, we want it.

The transcendent, the non-visible, doesn't catch you myopic selfish attentions by nature in this flesh.

But it can. Because we are linked to the source,God, by our very being that is entirely of and from God our creator.

When God gets our attention, the bridge is made. We come to realize we are more than perishable flesh ,bone,and carnal appetite.

And that is when, like as when we were innocent babes learning how to crawl and then walk as we gained our confidence, so too do we slowly learn to put that spirit of God, like a transperancy laid over a painting, first in our walk in this life. And therein walk more in the spirit than in the flesh that takes this world so seriously.

That's how I see it anyway.:)

Good

Now look at the example of the young man on the island and answer. post 189
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,562
712
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is the first example....what would that young do on the island that was driven by a sin nature?
Would anyone do contrary to his/her nature? No... :) Either before or after the age of four? No... :)

The phrase, sin nature, isn't in the Bible.
Paul is very clear concerning the proclivity of man to sin. In writing to the Christians in Ephesus, he says:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
[Ephesians 2:3]

And to the Christians in Rome, he writes:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
[Romans 7:14-25]

We are born sinless.
Born not having committed a sin, yes, obviously, but in sin ~ even brought forth in iniquity, and even conceived in sin, as King David says of himself:

"Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
[Psalm 51:4-5]

There is no sin nature.
That would beg the question, then, why we sin. Yes, it is our very nature. It is the natural human condition.

Grace and peace to all.
 
Last edited:

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,674
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Romans 7:25 speaks of something called the "law of sin" which is contrasted
with the "law of God".

For example: the law of God prohibits dishonesty (Lev 19:11) whereas the
law of sin compels folks to lie, dissemble, suppress information, and spin
half-truths.

The law of God requires civility (Lev 19:18) whereas the law of sin compels
folk to be rude, thoughtless, spiteful, argumentative, intolerant, impatient,
and defensive.

The law of God favors harmony (Ps 133:1) whereas the law of sin favors
assertiveness, quarreling, silent treatments, recriminations, toxic rejoinders,
grudging, revenge, vendettas, and shouting and spraying spittle.

The law of God requires charity and generosity (Deut 15:7-8) whereas the
law of sin compels folks to be miserly and hard-hearted.

Etc.

A major difference between the law of God and the law of sin is that the law
of God is merely a code to live by, whereas the law of sin is a force of
nature. That situation needs to be reversed, and the new covenant described
by Jer 31:31-34 and Ezek 36:26-27 is the magic wand able to do it.
_
 
Last edited:

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,835
643
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Keeping simple lets discuss this.....what is a sin nature.

Example 1...Family crash lands on tropical island that has no people. Mom and dad die.....little boy 4 years old lives and grows up on island by himself.....Now what is this sin nature going to cause that boy to do between 4 - 30 years old?

The phrase sinful flesh or sin's flesh is given with the understanding that sin has dominion over that nature. Also within the nature is the law of sin and death - it's a condemned nature - it will die regardless of sin or sinlessness - its condemned!

Jesus had a condemned nature.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,276
5,335
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Would anyone do contrary to his/her nature? No... :) Either before or after the age of four? No... :)


Paul is very clear concerning the proclivity of man to sin. In writing to the Christians in Ephesus, he says:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
[Ephesians 2:3]

And to the Christians in Rome, he writes:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
[Romans 7:14-25]


Born not having committed a sin, yes, obviously, but in sin ~ even brought forth in iniquity, and even conceived in sin, as King David says of himself:

"Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
[Psalm 51:4-5]


That would beg the question, then, why we sin. Yes, it is our very nature. It is the natural human condition.

Grace and peace to all.

Thanks for the scriptures....

The question is; what would the boy on the island do....physically do?
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,276
5,335
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The phrase sinful flesh or sin's flesh is given with the understanding that sin has dominion over that nature. Also within the nature is the law of sin and death - it's a condemned nature - it will die regardless of sin or sinlessness - its condemned!

Jesus had a condemned nature.

I am going to address this, but first tell me what the boy on the island would do.....it is a discussion.