The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Bible Highlighter]

Until one bows to the idol of hyper grace osas , many will do just that my dear sister . But many also forget about all those IFS in the bible .

Ah, yes. I gotcha now. IFS would be “if statements.”

They have to willfully ignore or change these statements in the Bible to mean something else.

If we walk in the light (1 John 1:7).
If we confess our sins (1 John 1:9).
If ye continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23).
“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Real believers who are 'In Christ", understand that Christ is the Eternal Atonement between them and God.
You have it, or you dont.
There is no confessing sin or working good works required to keep what God has given as the "Gift of Salvation".
There is only the deceived misunderstanding that many have, who are trying to stay saved, having no real faith in Christ.

This is not a sufficient rebuttal with Scripture to the verses I posted. You are just repeating what you have been fed by Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists. So unless you go back and explain the verses that refute your belief, your argument here is a hollow one. Besides, as I said before, Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). You have to abide in the Son in order to have life. For 1 John 5:12 says, He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

How can you have an assurance that you know the Son? By keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). For the person who says they know the Lord and they don’t keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). You promote that we can sin and still be saved on some level, and therefore you are not in agreement with 1 John 2:3-4, and many other verses.

 

[Lizbeth]

It's not enough to mentally acknowledge Jesus. We have to obey Him. We have to love one another. We have to crucify our flesh with its passions and desires.


All of these things will come to pass if we allow the Holy Spirit to hang around long enough.....it’s all part of God Transforming us from the inside- out.....something only HE can do ....a man can change, but only God can “ Transform” a mans Heart...and that is the only thing that counts...

So how does one GET that Holy Spirit and keep it hanging around? The one thing that you DON’T do is make the Mistake that the Galatians made by returning to the Law as a little “ insurance “ that they could STAY saved.....Paul had to remind them and warn them——- Did you get the Holy Spirit in you by Keeping the Law? Or did you get it by Faith? Paul reprimanded them with this—- “ How can you be so foolish? After “starting” your New Lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to “ finish” your New Lives by your own human effort?” Gal 3:3.....

Yes, we obtain salvation and also keep it by faith. And if we are walking by faith (ie, the spirit) we will not knowingly and deliberately sin...we'll resist temptation if it comes our way. That's all people are saying. I think you're assuming they are talking about establishing our own righteousness...? When Jesus and the apostles preached and wrote about righteousness and holiness and what it looks like in practice, were they talking about establishing our own righteousness like those under the Law, or were they talking about life in the Spirit by faith? We presume the latter of course.

 

[amigo de christo]

Ah, yes. I gotcha now. IFS would be “if statements.”

They have to willfully ignore or change these statements in the Bible to mean something else.

If we walk in the light (1 John 1:7).
If we confess our sins (1 John 1:9).
If ye continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23).
“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

BINGO .
And now a reminder from a dear old lady who once said it years ago .
Look around and be distressed
Look within and be depressed
LOOK AT JESUS CHRIST and BE AT REST . For the lambs we sticking to the truth of every Word in that bible that was left us .
For the answers come not from wordly men nor the world
and they cometh not from man or even us
BUT JESUS IS OUR PEACE and IN HIS EVERY WORD WE SHALL TRUST and FIND OUR REST .
They can keep all their twisted doctrines of men gone wrong . As for the lambs we believe the bible as IS and we take
all things written down for our learning . Taking heed unto it all and believing even the things that follow those ifs .
I DONT NEED no artificial peace , THE TRUTH ALONE giveth me PEACE and that by the SPIRIT that has changed the hearts of the lambs
to love all things GOD did inspire . SURE IS PEACEFUL MY FRIEND to JUST TRUST IN CHRIST and not rather in men who twist and omit things .

 

[amigo de christo]

Look around and be distressed
Look within and be depressed
LOOK AT JESUS and be at REST .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

NO DOUBT!
However FIRST, you should know WHAT God means BY WORKS, before you can CONTINUE in WORKS!

So let’s what Jesus says when asked the question.

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

...BELIEVE is the works a man MUST CONTINUE...or be cut off!


LABOR “deeds” works is completely different. LABOR is “DOING” works.
Helping others, lending aid, charity...IN Jesus’ Name.

Matt 16:[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke.23
[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.


WORK of CONTINUED BELIEF..A man shall RECEIVE SALVATION.
WORK of LABOR DEEDS...........A man shall RECEIVE A REWARD.

Two expressly different WORKS.
Two expressly different RECEIPTS.

I created this illustration to hopefully help you see what I believe the Bible teaches in regards to John 6:28-29.

In other words, the work of God is the Lord's work upon our heart so that we may believe and or have faith in Jesus. Faith starts off as a belief alone, but it does not remain that way.

So any instructions God gives to you in the Bible is a part of the faith (and not just believing in Jesus as your Savior).

Side Note:

I am not proposing Calvinism or that God regenerates a heart before a person believes. I am talking about the drawing of Christ whereby we are illuminated by God to be able to freely choose Christ in this life or reject Him of our own free will.

 

[Taken]

I created this illustration to hopefully help you see what I believe the Bible teaches in regards to John 6:28-29.

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In other words, the work of God is the Lord's work upon our heart so that we may believe and or have faith in Jesus. Faith starts off as a belief alone, but it does not remain that way.

So any instructions God gives to you in the Bible is a part of the faith (and not just believing in Jesus as your Savior).

Already heard your point of view, and you calling that “initial Salvation”.

* Salvation is a Gift.
* Hearing the Word of God, is assigned to men to speak, anytime, anywhere.
* Preachers, are assigned a particular place/gathering to speak the Word of God.
* Effort, labor of man, “is labor works of man”, to speak the Word of God.
* The Listening man RECEIVES, Measures of the GIFT OF FAITH from God.
* Works OF God, that a listening man does, “WHO Believes” the Word of God is a listening mans “Service” unto God.
* Those “Service Works” OF “Believing the Word of God” ARE listening men WHO RECEIVE Blessings FROM the Holy Spirit.

^ They are NOT Receiving the Gift of Salvation.

^ They ARE Receiving PREPARATION TO: receive the Gift of Salvation.
(Hearing, Works, Faith, Belief, Service, Blessings, ie Preparations TO Receive the Gift of Salvation.)

You call that “initial Salvation”.
I disagree.
I believe “initial Salvation”, implies Salvation given, then requires the mans effort to keep the Salvation.
* I believe God reveals a “PREPARATION” that which, is according to Gods Order and Way, and specifically to WHOM Gods “Preparing” applies.

IOW - in brief;
Adam was being prepared, By the Word of God.
Man became divided, Hebrews, Tribes/ Gentiles.
Preparations continued to Hebrews, Tribes, VIA Laws.
Laws Failed.
Word in the Flesh.
Tribal Jews Heard, some accepted, some rejected.
Gentiles heard, some accepted, some rejected.
More divisions;
Jews - Continuing under the Law, still Waiting for the Messiah
Jews - Some accepting Jesus their Messiah.
Gentiles - Some widely accepting Jesus the Christ & Jewish God.
Gentiles & Jews - Some rejecting God & Christ Jesus.

* END of days as we know them, coming soon.
INTENT, PURPOSE - is to WRAP UP (so to speak), Divisions of men...finality of those Divided men...TO BE SEPARATED;
* Separation of the Divided;
** WITH God permanently.
** WITHOUT God permanently.

* Another point you and I disagree on:
~ IS SOME men ARE ALREADY “SEPARATED”, WITH God Permanently.
~ Some men “are already Permanently Separated”, are Expressly Identified by being Called;
* The Sav-ed;
* The Convert-ed;
* The Holy Spirit Baptiz-ed;
* The Santifi-ed; (set apart)
* The Forgiven;
* The Born Again;
* The IN-Christ;
* Christ’s Church;

Side Note:
Notice, being called a Christian, a Catholic, a Protestant, a Baptist, a Lutheran, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Calvinist, a Believer, a Preacher, a Gentile, a Hebrew, a Tribesman, A Jew....blah, blah (mans Invented Divisions)....
* HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER, to do with CONVEYING or REVEALING that man IS “permanently Separated WITH God”.

Side Note:

I am not proposing Calvinism or that God regenerates a heart before a person believes. I am talking about the drawing of Christ whereby we are illuminated by God to be able to freely choose Christ in this life or reject Him of our own free will.

Still, I do not call that “initial Salvation”, but rather “preparation”.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Already heard your point of view, and you calling that “initial Salvation”.

First, even still after I made an illustration you still are not getting what I said.

The work of God = The work of God upon the heart of man
(which in turn is to get them to believe).

Therefore...

The credit goes to God for believing (or having faith) ultimately and not man (even though man has free will involved in the decision).

The work of God in John 6:29 is God's work upon a person's heart (convicting them of sin) and to illuminate them to the truth of God's Word to be able to believe. They then have a free will choice to decide to accept God's word (under the illumination and drawing of God), or they can reject that truth. The truth is exposed to them by God.

In context, speaking of the Holy Spirit:

John 16:8-11 says,
“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Second, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). This means hearing or believing everything in your Bible is a part of the faith. So if you believe in the name of Jesus for salvation according to John 1:12, you are hearing the faith. If God tells you to love the brethren and help the poor in His Word (in the pages of the New Testament) (1 John 4:7) (Matthew 25:31-46), then that is also a part of your faith in God. For how can it not be a part of the faith? We have to believe all of the Bible by faith. So if you later obey God after believing in Jesus for salvation, you are still having faith. By faith, Noah built the ark.

Hebrews 11:7
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”

If Noah did not build the ark, he would have perished with everyone else. Perpetual belief alone type thinking with God would not have saved Noah. Sure, Noah might have been accounted righteous without works before doing anything... but then faith matures and grows to doing the work of faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

But while John 6:29 is referring to God's work upon the heart (Because this crowd needs to be saved to begin with), John 6:26-27 is talking about the eventual work of faith (that follows by our faith - the results from God's work upon our heart to believe).

In John 6:26-27, we read:

“Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” (John 6:26-27).

Jesus is talking about laboring (physical work) that the Jewish crowd did as a part of gaining food. He is not talking in context to a belief alone here. Laboring therefore must be in context to the work of faith that they must do (believing, following Jesus, and obeying Him) that endures to everlasting life. This is consistent with the words of Jesus elsewhere (See: Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 16:25). Even after the cross, we are told by John that if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). By the indirect wording: To walk in the light = loving your brother (1 John 2:9-11). For he that does not righteousness and does not love their brother is not of God (1 John 3:10). For John says that hating one's brother means one is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). So again, one's right behavior or conduct is tied to having eternal life. Even your Bible ends in the last chapter as saying, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).

Anyways, getting back to John 6:26-29:

The order is:

1. God's work upon the heart (of which we cannot believe without this) (John 6:29).

2. Faith in Jesus as our Savior, and a belief in the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day for our salvation (is what must happen when we first get saved). This is a process of salvation without works.

3. Faith in God's instructions (in the New Testament) which means one does the work of faith (John 6:27). This is the eventual labor that they are to do that endures to everlasting life. This is the eventual result of God's work upon the heart to believe. God gets the credit for us believing (even though we have free will choice involved because God is the initiator and illuminator of our being able to believe).​

So John 6:26-29 is describing things in reverse order.
Jesus desires them to ultimately do the work of faith, but that can only start or begin when God does the work upon their heart to illuminate them to the truth of God's Word, and to convict them of their sin whereby they are able to make the choice to first believe in the Savior and the gospel message by faith initially (Which is received as a gift). But salvation is not continually received over and over and over as a gift. Gifts come with responsibilities otherwise you can lose them if you don't take care of them.

Side Note:

In John 6:28, the Jewish crowd is asking what must they do in order to do the works of God. Jesus desires them to do the eventual work of faith, but it takes time to get there and certain things first need to happen. The first thing that needs to happen is GOD (i.e. the work of God - John 6:29). GOD needs to work upon their heart and convict them of their sin at the right moment in their life and show them the truth of His Word. Once the truth is illuminated to them under God's drawing and call, they are able to believe. But God gets the credit for a person initially believing in God for salvation. Then after a believer has first trusted in Jesus and the gospel for salvation, they then move on to laboring for the food (work of faith) that endures to everlasting life (John 6:27). Obeying God's instructions in the Bible is simply continuing in the faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

BINGO .
And now a reminder from a dear old lady who once said it years ago .
Look around and be distressed
Look within and be depressed
LOOK AT JESUS CHRIST and BE AT REST . For the lambs we sticking to the truth of every Word in that bible that was left us .
For the answers come not from wordly men nor the world
and they cometh not from man or even us
BUT JESUS IS OUR PEACE and IN HIS EVERY WORD WE SHALL TRUST and FIND OUR REST .
They can keep all their twisted doctrines of men gone wrong . As for the lambs we believe the bible as IS and we take
all things written down for our learning . Taking heed unto it all and believing even the things that follow those ifs .
I DONT NEED no artificial peace , THE TRUTH ALONE giveth me PEACE and that by the SPIRIT that has changed the hearts of the lambs
to love all things GOD did inspire . SURE IS PEACEFUL MY FRIEND to JUST TRUST IN CHRIST and not rather in men who twist and omit things .

Well, there are some words within God's Word that require us to sacrifice our life for Christ which is not always easy. But once we do make that sacrifice in obeying God... we then find rest. We are to labor to enter into that rest. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. I don't see it as a walk in the park. But if we abide in the Lord and fight to stay in His good ways, He will help us to endure to the end. Paul said, “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1 Corinthians 9:27). So it's not just believing God's words (although God does require that), but it also requires us doing what He says (Which is not always easy).

 

[Taken]

First, even still after I made an illustration you still are not getting what I said.

Got it, do not agree with your wording of explanation.

John 16:8-11 says,
“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

^ THAT was a foretelling prophecy.
^ THAT prophecy WAS fulfilled...accomplished...Finished.
^ MORE prophecy SHALL BE fulfilled...accomplished...Done

Second, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). This means hearing or believing everything in your Bible is a part of the faith. So if you believe in the name of Jesus for salvation according to John 1:12, you are hearing the faith.

Hearing means Hearing.
Gift of Faith, is FOR Hearing.

If God tells you to love the brethren and help the poor in His Word (in the pages of the New Testament), then that is also a part of your faith in God. For how can it not be a part of the faith? We have to believe all of the Bible by faith. So if you later obey God after believing in Jesus for salvation, you are still having faith. By faith, Noah built the ark.

Faith, Faith, Faith, little by little, bit by bit, it can INCREASE, or man can fall away, by rejecting what he has HEARD.

The GOAL is to Continue Hearing, Continue Receiving Gods Gift of Faith INCREASE....UNTIL a man himself IS CONTENT and FREELY Confesses to the Lord God....the man is prepared to COMMITTING to the Lord God in Complete “FAITH-FULLNESS” exclusively, assuredly, unto the Lord God.

Hebrews 11:7
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”

If Noah did not build the ark, he would have perished with everyone else.

Irrelevant!
God did not SEE Noah steeped in “FAITH_FULLNESS”.
God saw in Noah, Noah’s willingness to TRUST the LORD.

Gen 6:
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Perpetual belief alone type thinking with God would not have saved Noah.

You paint a BROAD picture and IMPLY that BROAD picture APPLIES to all men.
Perhaps you did not NOTICE the “new BETTER TESTAMENT”, God revealed, by, through, of Christ Jesus.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

* Salvation Receivable NOW, before a physical death, IF one is crucified with Christ Jesus.
* Salvation Promised ON the day of physical death, IF one physically DIES in Belief.
* THE “IF” condition to RECEIVE SALVATION; “IS” expressly “ONE conditional thing”.
1) True Heartful BELIEF at the time of bodily Death.

THAT IS THE WORKS OF GOD A MAN MAY WILLINGLY CHOOSE TO DO, or NOT.

IF a man does NOTHING ELSE, but that ONE thing, he shall be saved.
(Water baptizing, going to church, bowing to statues, posturing, gesturing, trinkets, preaching, teaching, charity, gathering, waving a Bible, blah, blah, blah... may gander rewards...

HOWEVER...

Receiving SALVATION...is expressly ONCE and FOREVER GIVEN for True Heartful Belief at the time of Bodily Death. PERIOD.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Got it, do not agree with your wording of explanation.




^ THAT was a foretelling prophecy.
^ THAT prophecy WAS fulfilled...accomplished...Finished.
^ MORE prophecy SHALL BE fulfilled...accomplished...Done



Hearing means Hearing.
Gift of Faith, is FOR Hearing.



Faith, Faith, Faith, little by little, bit by bit, it can INCREASE, or man can fall away, by rejecting what he has HEARD.

The GOAL is to Continue Hearing, Continue Receiving Gods Gift of Faith INCREASE....UNTIL a man himself IS CONTENT and FREELY Confesses to the Lord God....the man is prepared to COMMITTING to the Lord God in Complete “FAITH-FULLNESS” exclusively, assuredly, unto the Lord God.



Irrelevant!
God did not SEE Noah steeped in “FAITH_FULLNESS”.
God saw in Noah, Noah’s willingness to TRUST the LORD.

Gen 6:
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.



You paint a BROAD picture and IMPLY that BROAD picture APPLIES to all men.
Perhaps you did not NOTICE the “new BETTER TESTAMENT”, God revealed, by, through, of Christ Jesus.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

* Salvation Receivable NOW, before a physical death, IF one is crucified with Christ Jesus.
* Salvation Promised ON the day of physical death, IF one physically DIES in Belief.
* THE “IF” condition to RECEIVE SALVATION; “IS” expressly “ONE conditional thing”.
1) True Heartful BELIEF at the time of bodily Death.

THAT IS THE WORKS OF GOD A MAN MAY WILLINGLY CHOOSE TO DO, or NOT.

IF a man does NOTHING ELSE, but that ONE thing, he shall be saved.
(Water baptizing, going to church, bowing to statues, posturing, gesturing, trinkets, preaching, teaching, charity, gathering, waving a Bible, blah, blah, blah... may gander rewards...

HOWEVER...

Receiving SALVATION...is expressly ONCE and FOREVER GIVEN for True Heartful Belief at the time of Bodily Death. PERIOD.

Glory to God,
Taken

Noah was called a preacher of righteousness according to Scripture.

You also have not dealt with all the verses I put forth to you (like Revelation 22:14-15 etc).

No sense of continuing this conversation. I said what I needed to say with God’s Word that is sufficient for any seeker of the truth to believe God’s Word and not Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist’s sayings.

I am afraid many will be in shock when they find at the Judgement that their belief was not in line with what God’s Word says plainly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

2 Peter 2:5-6 says,
“And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;”

Noah was a preacher of righteousness and not a preacher of unrighteousness.

The flood was an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter. The picture here is death and destruction and not eternal life for anyone who lives ungodly.

Matthew 24:37 (NKJV) says,
“But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Meaning, history will repeat itself. Many people will just live ungodly and they will perish not heeding the communicated Word of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Many attempt to justify a sin and still be saved type belief, and they will twist Scripture at any cost to do so.
It is the only means by which they can protect their precious Protestant Belief Alone Salvation doctrine.
One example is John 16:8-9. They will say that this passage is fulfilled prophecy releasing the obligation upon any person today that they will be convicted of their sins. Is this what the passage is saying? Lets read the passage.

John 16:7-11 says.

7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”​

This passage is only saying that when Jesus is risen, the Holy Spirit will come (at Pentecost), and when that happens the Spirit will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and judgment because the world does not believe on Jesus. Has all the world been reproved of sin during the time at Pentecost? No. One could say that the world was the Jewish people at Pentecost, but there were still Jews that needed to be saved. Even today, there are Jews that need to be saved. Besides, God’s scope of salvation was just more than the Jews (because it also included salvation for the Gentiles, too). This was evident with God having Peter preach the gospel to Cornelius and his household and the Spirit coming upon them. Cornelius was a Gentile. This was a part of John 16:7-11. There are other Gentiles in the world that need to be reproved of sin. There is no indication in John 16:7-11 (or within the chapter) that it was a one time event only for the early church. There is no later verse or passage saying the Spirit reproving the world of sin has ended, either. In other words, this sounds like an excuse to justify the idea that we don’t have to worry about being convicted of our sin by the Spirit (Which is false).

 

[BarneyFife]

To all:

Many attempt to justify a sin and still be saved type belief, and they will twist Scripture at any cost to do so.
It is the only means by which they can protect their precious Protestant Belief Alone Salvation doctrine.
One example is John 16:8-9. They will say that this passage is fulfilled prophecy releasing the obligation upon any person today that they will be convicted of their sins. Is this what the passage is saying? Lets read the passage.

John 16:7-11 says.

7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”​

This passage is only saying that when Jesus is risen, the Holy Spirit will come (at Pentecost), and when that happens the Spirit will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and judgment because the world does not believe on Jesus. Has all the world been reproved of sin during the time at Pentecost? No. One could say that the world was the Jewish people at Pentecost, but there were still Jews that needed to be saved. Even today, there are Jews that need to be saved. Besides, God’s scope of salvation was just more than the Gentiles. This was evident with Peter preaching the gospel to Cornelius and his household and the Spirit coming upon them. Cornelius was a Gentile. This was a part of John 16:7-11. There are still more Gentiles that need to be reproved of sin besides Cornelius. There is no indication in John 16:7-11 (or within the chapter) that it was a one time event only for the early church. There is no later verse or passage saying the Spirit reproving the world of sin has ended, either. In other words, this sounds like an excuse to justify the idea that we don’t have to worry about being convicted of our sin by the Spirit (Which is false).

M
m
It's just so sad that the "many" and others do not give such careful study and consideration to Colossians 2:13-17, nor believe that Exodus 20:8-11 is included in "believing everything in your Bible" which, evidently, "is a part of the faith."

 

[BarneyFife]

So it's not just believing God's words (although God does require that), but it also requires us doing what He says (Which is not always easy).

Don't you think you think you should be more specific with these precious souls you're trying to reach about what it actually means to be 'doing what God says' and to 'believe everything in your Bible?'

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Many will also twist Scripture to justify a sin and still be saved type belief by suggesting that the word “hear” cannot be in context to listening so as to “obey” within the New Testament and that it only means to “listen” (with no followed action) in every instance.

While the word “hear” can mean to “listen” (with no followed action), it can also mean to listen in context to then “obey”.

James is one prime example of this. It would be an example of using a similar word to “hear” (“hearers”) in reference to listening (with no action).

“But be ye doers of the word,
and not hearers only,
deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22).​

This word “hearers only ” obviously is referring to listening (with no action) because the context is talking in contrast to being a “doer of the Word.” Plus, it says to the reader to not be “hearers only.”

So being a hearer ONLY is condemned in the Bible.
Belief Alone is condemned because one is deceiving themselves if they are a hearer ONLY and not a doer of the Word.

Anyways, let’s look at a couple of examples in the Bible where the word “hear” means to listen so as to “obey.” (And NOT a hearer ONLY).

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” (John 8:42-44).​

These Jews should have been loving Jesus if God were their Father.
They did not understand Jesus’ words because they did the lust of their father the devil (i.e. sin).

It was their sin (disobedience to God’s Word) why they could not listen or hear (or understand Jesus’s words).

“Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.” (John 8:39-40).

John 8:47 says,
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

This means to listen but it is in view of listening to the point of obedience. For the context is Jesus rebuking the Jews because they were doing the lusts of their father the devil and they wanted to murder Jesus. John 8:47 is also in context to Jesus telling the Jews that if they were Abraham’s father, they would do the works of Abraham. So listening or hearing truly is in view of one listening to the point that they would obey God’s instructions (as a part of His Word). In our case: We have to obey Jesus (as a part of our reading and studying the New Testament) so as to truly show we are listening to God. If not, we are no different than the Jews who did the lusts of their father the devil (sin) and who did not do the works of Abraham. We are being Hearers ONLY deceiving our own selves if we were to do that.

 

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M
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It's just so sad that the "many" and others do not give such careful study and consideration to Colossians 2:13-17, nor believe that Exodus 20:8-11 is included in "believing everything in your Bible" which, evidently, "is a part of the faith."

This thread is not about Saturday Sabbath keeping that Seventh Day Adventists keep promoting as if it was most important command in the universe (that was promoted by the false prophetess Ellen G. White). That’s not the greatest commandment. The first two greatest commandments are:

#1. Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one God, and love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, strength, heart, and to:
#2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

(See: Mark 12:29-31).

 

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Don't you think you think you should be more specific with these precious souls you're trying to reach about what it actually means to be 'doing what God says' and to 'believe everything in your Bible?'

I have listed various sins we need to avoid already.
But I know your real agenda. Gentile believers are not under the 613 Laws of Moses. See Acts of the Apostles 15. Nowhere does the Jerusalem council stress believers have to keep the Sabbath. Nowhere in the New Testament is there a “Sabbath command” or a “Sabbath day breaking sin” listed among other sins. One has to insert this idea into Scripture to make it true. Colossians 2:14-17 makes it clear that we are not to let others judge us according to Sabbaths (Which would naturally include the Saturday Sabbath). But again, this thread is not about the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath (Which is implied by your words here).

 

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Some “Sin and Still be Salvationists” will propose that salvation is a gift therefore it can never be anything that involves us doing something.

Here is my short write up on Romans 4:4 that explains this.

Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

 

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