The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Randy Kluth]

Irenaeus
Irenaeus agrees with Justin. He lists the resurrection at the coming of Christ as the time when the curse is finally removed, incorruption is introduced and death and the devil are eliminated.

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.).
​

​

This just seems to be a review of what Paul said would happen at the 2nd Coming. Death would be overcome, and those who died in Christ would be resurrected from the dead. And in accordance with John, the Devil is also destroyed, or defeated, at that time. According to John, Satan is defeated at the 2nd Coming, through the defeat of Antichrist, and is sentenced to prison at that time.

1 Cor 15.52 For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Rev 20.2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

The glorification of God’s people described in this ancient text occurs at the second coming. It is here that this corruptible will take on incorruption. This Chiliast father teaches that every vestige of the Fall is removed when Christ returns never to arise again. The approaching earth will be totally different from the current corrupt one and will be totally renewed and eternally free of corruption.

I'm wondering what you mean when you say that "The Chiliast father teaches...the approaching earth will be totally different from the current corrupt one?" We know the departed saints will be resurrected and receive new bodies. But what did they think will change on the earth?

According to this early writer, the saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences.

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter X, 1 – Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world).
​

I'm not clear on what "raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race" refers to? It sounds like all of these Chiliasts simply compressed into one judgment the beginning of the Millennium with the end of the Millennium. If you want me to comment on these passages, you need to break them up into smaller bits, because I keep running over my allotment in words!​

Again, the coming of Christ is here represented as glorious and climatic. It involves God’s righteous final judgment upon all wickedness. There is no indication that sin and sinners survive the Lord’s future return. Wicked man and wicked angels are both collectively shown to experience “everlasting fire.”

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170 – 236) states:

“Until the Ancient of days come." That is, when at length the Judge of judges and the King of kings comes from heaven, who shall subvert the whole dominion and power of the adversary, and shall consume all with the eternal fire of punishment. But to His servants, and prophets, and martyrs, and to all who fear Him, He will give an everlasting kingdom; that is, they shall possess the endless enjoyment of good (Fragments on Daniel: Chap. VII.22).​

Hippolytus sees the judgment, punishment and destruction of Satan, his minions, the wicked and all evil when Jesus returns. He further explains:

[A]s they wait for the righteous Judge … Then the righteous shall shine forth like the sun, while the wicked shall be shown to be mute and gloomy. For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous, to be honoured eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally … Then shall the son of perdition be brought forward, to wit, the accuser, with his demons and with his servants, by angels stern and inexorable. And they shall be given over to the fire that is never quenched, and to the worm that never sleeps, and to the outer darkness.​

Again, we all agree that Satan will ultimately be delivered into the Lake of Fire. The question is, will the universal judgment Christ is bringing with him at his 2nd Coming be merely earth-wide or absolute? Christ comes to defeat a universal Antichristian rebellion against God. Universal judgment does not, however, translate into absolute terms. Nor does the glorification of the Church translate into a complete renewal of the earth, apart from the beginning of the Church's reign.

And multitudes of men will run from the east even to the west, and from the north even to the sea, saying, Where is Christ here? Where is Christ there? But being possessed of a vain conceit, and failing to read the Scriptures carefully, and not being of an upright mind, they will seek for a name which they shall be unable to find. For these things must first be; and thus the son of perdition — that is to say, the devil— must be seen.​

​

Satan possessed Antichrist. Seeing Antichrist was seeing Satan.

They shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and there shall be none to help them or to pity them, because they repented not, neither turned aside from the wicked way. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment with the demons and the accuser (On the End of the World, 38-40).​

Here once again, the fate of Satan (“the accuser”), “the demons” and the unrepentant is shown to be closely connected. They are all said to face their final doom at the one time.

Antichrist and his followers across the earth were punished at the 2nd Coming. Satan's sentence of imprisonment began at that time.

Rev 19.20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

 

[WPM]

​

This just seems to be a review of what Paul said would happen at the 2nd Coming. Death would be overcome, and those who died in Christ would be resurrected from the dead. And in accordance with John, the Devil is also destroyed, or defeated, at that time. According to John, Satan is defeated at the 2nd Coming, through the defeat of Antichrist, and is sentenced to prison at that time.

1 Cor 15.52 For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Rev 20.2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.



I'm wondering what you mean when you say that "The Chiliast father teaches...the approaching earth will be totally different from the current corrupt one?" We know the departed saints will be resurrected and receive new bodies. But what did they think will change on the earth?

I'm not clear on what "raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race" refers to? It sounds like all of these Chiliasts simply compressed into one judgment the beginning of the Millennium with the end of the Millennium. If you want me to comment on these passages, you need to break them up into smaller bits, because I keep running over my allotment in words!​

Again, we all agree that Satan will ultimately be delivered into the Lake of Fire. The question is, will the universal judgment Christ is bringing with him at his 2nd Coming be merely earth-wide or absolute? Christ comes to defeat a universal Antichristian rebellion against God. Universal judgment does not, however, translate into absolute terms. Nor does the glorification of the Church translate into a complete renewal of the earth, apart from the beginning of the Church's reign.

​

Satan possessed Antichrist. Seeing Antichrist was seeing Satan.



Antichrist and his followers across the earth were punished at the 2nd Coming. Satan's sentence of imprisonment began at that time.

Rev 19.20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

You attribute to 1000 years after the second coming of Jesus what these writers clearly and repeatedly related to our Lord's return. This is a totally misrepresentation of the facts. I suspect you know that. After all, you have been doing this for so long. It has become your MO. It doesn't seem to matter how watertight the historic detail is, or how well presented it is, your sole aim seems to be to prove your own false narrative at any cost.

Your bias is so blatant and calculated that I consider this a willful and continuous twisting of the facts. It is very hard to engage with, respect or take serious such an approach. This is something I do not appreciate on a Christian forum. It is theological politicking. You are so married to Premil, and so blinkered in your approach, that you rewrite the ECFs writings to suit your beliefs; all the time, you are unable to present any historical data that mentions or describes, in any way, one single modern Premillennial tenet these ancient Chiliasts espoused, apart from a future thousand years. This is very damning for your position and reinforces everything I have claimed in the Op. For that, I thank you for confirming my conclusions.

The above Chiliast quotes are crystal clear to the open and objective observer. They do not need any gerrymandering. They do not need any explaining away. They do not need any altering. They are historic facts! They negate your whole thesis, that is built on your own prejudices. I am happy that the un-indoctrinated objective observer will recognize and accept the historic detail, and see no need to alter it to suit their own selfish purposes (even if it cuts across their own respective beliefs).

I do not continue because I enjoy engaging with such an approach (I find it extremely disingenuous), I do so because your gerrymandering exposes your position and reinforces my findings.

 

[WPM]

Again, we all agree that Satan will ultimately be delivered into the Lake of Fire. The question is, will the universal judgment Christ is bringing with him at his 2nd Coming be merely earth-wide or absolute? Christ comes to defeat a universal Antichristian rebellion against God. Universal judgment does not, however, translate into absolute terms. Nor does the glorification of the Church translate into a complete renewal of the earth, apart from the beginning of the Church's reign.

No we do not agree, neither do the early Chiliasts agree with you

Justin Martyr:

[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).​

He further states in another work:

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).​

He adds:

[Y]ou hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, perhaps for this reason, lest you be persecuted by the rulers, who, under the influence of the wicked and deceitful spirit, the serpent, will not cease putting to death and persecuting those who confess the name of Christ until He come again, and destroy them all, and render to each his deserts (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 39).​

Irenaeus agrees with Justin:

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.).
​

He continues:

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter X, 1 – Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world).
​

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170 – 236) states:

“Until the Ancient of days come." That is, when at length the Judge of judges and the King of kings comes from heaven, who shall subvert the whole dominion and power of the adversary, and shall consume all with the eternal fire of punishment. But to His servants, and prophets, and martyrs, and to all who fear Him, He will give an everlasting kingdom; that is, they shall possess the endless enjoyment of good (Fragments on Daniel: Chap. VII.22).

He further explains:

[A]s they wait for the righteous Judge … Then the righteous shall shine forth like the sun, while the wicked shall be shown to be mute and gloomy. For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous, to be honoured eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally … Then shall the son of perdition be brought forward, to wit, the accuser, with his demons and with his servants, by angels stern and inexorable. And they shall be given over to the fire that is never quenched, and to the worm that never sleeps, and to the outer darkness.
​

He continues:

For the people of the Hebrews shall see Him in human form, as He appeared to them when He came by the holy Virgin in the flesh, and as they crucified Him. And He will show them the prints of the nails in His hands and feet, and His side pierced with the spear, and His head crowned with thorns, and His honourable cross. And once for all shall the people of the Hebrews see all these things, and they shall mourn and weep, as the prophet exclaims, They shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and there shall be none to help them or to pity them, because they repented not, neither turned aside from the wicked way. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment with the demons and the accuser (On the End of the World, 38-40).​

 

[WPM]

This just seems to be a review of what Paul said would happen at the 2nd Coming. Death would be overcome, and those who died in Christ would be resurrected from the dead. And in accordance with John, the Devil is also destroyed, or defeated, at that time. According to John, Satan is defeated at the 2nd Coming, through the defeat of Antichrist, and is sentenced to prison at that time.

1 Cor 15.52 For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Rev 20.2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Premils do not believe that Satan, sin and death are destroyed at the second coming. That is deceitful for you to claim that. They believe the devil is only bound when Jesus comes, whereupon he is thrown into a bottomless pit. After 1000 years he is able to engineer the greatest uprising in history against Christ and the saints (as "the sand of the sea"). What is more, sin and sinners and dying and crying continue to blight your so-called future millennium. It is only after Satan’s little season that Satan is destroyed in Premillennialism.

Why can you not be honest?

The fact is, these early Chiliasts believed Satan was bound at the First Advent and will be destroyed at the second coming.

 

[Timtofly]

After 1000 years he is able to engineer the greatest uprising in history against Christ and the saints (as "the sand of the sea").

This is disingenuous. The last 6,000 years has been the greatest uprising against God. You think there will be more people after 1,000 years, than all of Adam's wicked offspring of the last 6,000 years?

That goes against the point that broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life.

You are making up this near 100% rebellion in your dramatic over emotional description, which is just your own red herring.

Will there be a lot of deceived humans after the Millennium? More likely than not, but certainly not as dramatic as you make it sound.

And this deception is after the Millennium, and is turning the minds of righteous people without sin.

Satan succeeded in deceiving 33% of the angels. Certainly you don't think the other 66% were wicked sinners? Satan was 50% successful in the Garden with deceiving Eve. Eve was not a wicked sinner, before being deceived.

Since the industrial revolution and the spread of the Gospel, world population has jumped from millions to billions in 200 to 300 years. In the Millennium the population will go from millions to billions in the first 200 to 300 years, and exponentially grow without sin and death for another 700 to 800 years. It will only be the last few generations who will even be vulnerable to Satan. Those considered children under 100 years of age. Yet even 10% of the population in the end will be a couple billion. That is enough for your "sand of the seas" amount in first century comprehension.

Certainly not the massive near 100% rebellion you are making it out to be.

If there are trillions of angels. Then 33% is way more than the mere billions of humans on earth. Why don't you call heaven a bust and full of wicked goat infested creations? Or locust infested? When exactly do you expect that 5th Trumpet to sound and all those trillions of angels to arrive on earth? You all thinking you can hold out to a post trib second coming, when the population on earth is going to be way more crowded than any one can imagine. The redeemed will be about a .01% minority at that point.

Are you not giving Satan way more credit than he deserves?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Premils do not believe that Satan, sin and death are destroyed at the second coming. That is deceitful for you to claim that.

Deceitful? My oh my--for a guy with such extensive knowledge of the Bible and of the Church Fathers, who quotes them all the time, you sure have a penchant for pre-judgment! No, I was being 100% honest with you! I'm a Premil, and I do know what many Premils believe. We have a general framework, and differ on certain issues and may interpret some things differently, using different arguments.

This is my argument--not the argument of all Premils. I see what these Church Fathers, who were Chiliasts, as saying is the very thing that NT eschatology teaches, namely that at Christ's 2nd Coming, death will be defeated, the Antichrist destroyed, and Satan bound.

Paul rolls together everything that Christ did at the cross over to the effects that take place at the coming of the Kingdom. As Christ destroyed the power of Death, and defeated Satan at that time in that regard, so at Christ's 2nd Coming the same is effected--death is removed for glorified Christians, Antichrist and his forces are decimated, and in that Satan's reign is effectively destroyed. He is bound, and ultimately is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

They believe the devil is only bound when Jesus comes, whereupon he is thrown into a bottomless pit. After 1000 years he is able to engineer the greatest uprising in history against Christ and the saints (as "the sand of the sea"). What is more, sin and sinners and dying and crying continue to blight your so-called future millennium. It is only after Satan’s little season that Satan is destroyed in Premillennialism.

You continue to bring your false image of Premil, that the Millennial world is full of "blight," etc. There is no argument here, since it isn't true, and therefore not a valid question.

Why can you not be honest?
The fact is, these early Chiliasts believed Satan was bound at the First Advent and will be destroyed at the second coming.

I disagree with you. I guess you can't handle that kind of "honesty?" I think you completely misinterpret what the Chiliasts were saying. They weren't removing the binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming so as to apply it only at the 1st Coming! They applied the "strong man" argument to the 1st Coming, and the eventual binding of Satan during the Millennium at the 2nd Coming. That is true, and if you deny it I think you're being the "dishonest one," or simply erring in interpreting the Church Fathers on this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No we do not agree, neither do the early Chiliasts agree with you
Justin Martyr:

[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).​

​

Irenaeus agrees with Justin:

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.).

​

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170 – 236) states:

“Until the Ancient of days come." That is, when at length the Judge of judges and the King of kings comes from heaven, who shall subvert the whole dominion and power of the adversary, and shall consume all with the eternal fire of punishment. But to His servants, and prophets, and martyrs, and to all who fear Him, He will give an everlasting kingdom; that is, they shall possess the endless enjoyment of good (Fragments on Daniel: Chap. VII.22).
​

I've already answered this and explained it. Justin, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus all repeat precisely what Daniel said, that when the Kingdom of the Son of Man comes, the kingdoms of this world, under Satan, will be defeated and utterly judged. That judgment began, legally, at the cross, and is consummated at the 2nd Coming, the Coming of the Son of Man to set up God's Kingdom.

This Kingdom excludes Satan and his demons, as well as any who wish to make war on Christianity. The slight blip at the end of the Millennium, in which Satan is released again, does not mitigate his eternal judgment, which had begun at the 2nd Coming. He returns to the pit, or to the fire, to continue his eternal punishment, once it becomes clear that God's City stands forever in the face of human attack.

Again, Satan is essentially defeated at the 2nd Coming of Christ when Antichrist is utterly vanquished. This is stated in the Prophets, and is NT eschatology. It does not in the least argue against Satan's brief release and final sentencing at the end of the Millennial period. I can see how you get that, and I won't insult you for believing that. But in my view, you misinterpret the Chiliasts and misrepresent them.

These Church Fathers simply stated as fact that Satan enters into his eternal punishment at the time when Antichrist is defeated. His release at the end of the Millennium is brief, and does not mitigate his eternal death sentence, which you rightly say the Church Fathers believed began at the start of the Kingdom.

The reference of these Church Fathers to the glorification of the Church describe the beginning of a perfect experience for them, and certainly doesn't preclude the rise of a mortal humanity at the end of the Millennium to assert the fruit of their sinful nature once again. The Chiliasts simply agree with general Christian eschatology that the experience of the glorified Church will be perfect, without indicating that the people they will rule over will likewise be perfect.

​

 

[Randy Kluth]

You attribute to 1000 years after the second coming of Jesus what these writers clearly and repeatedly related to our Lord's return.

I do that because that his how the Bible describes it. As I said elsewhere, what Jesus did at the Cross is sort of "rolled over" into the coming of the Kingdom of Christ, when Satan's world is essentially destroyed, or defeated. In the destruction of the Antichristian movement all across the earth, Satan's kingdom is destroyed. And it is at that point Satan is completely bound and begins his sentencing in the pit. His brief release, notwithstanding, does not prevent him from continuing in this judgment for all eternity.

Displaying this defeat of Satan at the 2nd Coming and at the Coming of Christ's Kingdom is completely consistent with Chiliasm or Premillennialism. You are the one who describes Premil beliefs as having a Millennial Age full of sin and blight! No Premil I know characterizes Christ's Kingdom that way!

Your bias is so blatant and calculated that I consider this a willful and continuous twisting of the facts. It is very hard to engage with, respect or take serious such an approach. This is something I do not appreciate on a Christian forum. It is theological politicking. You are so married to Premil, and so blinkered in your approach, that you rewrite the ECFs writings to suit your beliefs; all the time, you are unable to present any historical data that mentions or describes, in any way, one single modern Premillennial tenet these ancient Chiliasts espoused, apart from a future thousand years. This is very damning for your position and reinforces everything I have claimed in the Op. For that, I thank you for confirming my conclusions.

Your attitude is so bad. But I've tried to persuade you to avoid this. I'm as frustrated with your attitude as you are with my belief. I'm really surprised that you think your demeaner is at all "spiritual!"

You admit, from the start, the single most important thing about these Chiliasts, which is that they believed in a literal Millennium! And then you proceed to claim that all their beliefs surrounding this are Amillennial! And you think there isn't a problem with that?

No, it seems very likely that you're reading into these early Chiliasts more than they're actually saying. They simply affirm the NT eschatology of Christ's future Kingdom in which Satan's kingdom is destroyed forever.

 

[WPM]

Deceitful? My oh my--for a guy with such extensive knowledge of the Bible and of the Church Fathers, who quotes them all the time, you sure have a penchant for pre-judgment! No, I was being 100% honest with you! I'm a Premil, and I do know what many Premils believe. We have a general framework, and differ on certain issues and may interpret some things differently, using different arguments.

This is my argument--not the argument of all Premils. I see what these Church Fathers, who were Chiliasts, as saying is the very thing that NT eschatology teaches, namely that at Christ's 2nd Coming, death will be defeated, the Antichrist destroyed, and Satan bound.

Paul rolls together everything that Christ did at the cross over to the effects that take place at the coming of the Kingdom. As Christ destroyed the power of Death, and defeated Satan at that time in that regard, so at Christ's 2nd Coming the same is effected--death is removed for glorified Christians, Antichrist and his forces are decimated, and in that Satan's reign is effectively destroyed. He is bound, and ultimately is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

You are doing a U-turn and rewording what you said. You said: "This just seems to be a review of what Paul said would happen at the 2nd Coming ... in accordance with John, the Devil is also destroyed, or defeated, at that time."

No Premil believes that, and you know that. You are being deceitful with that. Why not tell the truth? Because it would show the wide difference between early Chiliasm and modern Premil and would confirm my thesis re the similarity between early Chiliasm and modern Amil.

You continue to bring your false image of Premil, that the Millennial world is full of "blight," etc. There is no argument here, since it isn't true, and therefore not a valid question.

Again, totally untrue! For you to admit the facts would expose Premil!

· Do you believe crying and dying continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe decay and disease continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe war and terror continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe Satan and his minions populate the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe mortals continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the unregenerate continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the bondage of corruption continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?

I disagree with you. I guess you can't handle that kind of "honesty?" I think you completely misinterpret what the Chiliasts were saying. They weren't removing the binding of Satan at the 2nd Coming so as to apply it only at the 1st Coming! They applied the "strong man" argument to the 1st Coming, and the eventual binding of Satan during the Millennium at the 2nd Coming. That is true, and if you deny it I think you're being the "dishonest one," or simply erring in interpreting the Church Fathers on this.

Not honesty. More lies. If you are telling the truth, produce your evidence. So far you have provided nothing. Your silence is deafening.

1.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
2.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
3.Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as Premil does?

 

[WPM]

The slight blip at the end of the Millennium, in which Satan is released again, does not mitigate his eternal judgment, which had begun at the 2nd Coming...

He returns to the pit, or to the fire, to continue his eternal punishment, once it becomes clear that God's City stands forever in the face of human attack ... It does not in the least argue against Satan's brief release and final sentencing at the end of the Millennial period. I can see how you get that, and I won't insult you for believing that. But in my view, you misinterpret the Chiliasts and misrepresent them.

These Church Fathers simply stated as fact that Satan enters into his eternal punishment at the time when Antichrist is defeated. His release at the end of the Millennium is brief, and does not mitigate his eternal death sentence, which you rightly say the Church Fathers believed began at the start of the Kingdom.

The reference of these Church Fathers to the glorification of the Church describe the beginning of a perfect experience for them, and certainly doesn't preclude the rise of a mortal humanity at the end of the Millennium to assert the fruit of their sinful nature once again. The Chiliasts simply agree with general Christian eschatology that the experience of the glorified Church will be perfect, without indicating that the people they will rule over will likewise be perfect.

​

You say "The slight blip at the end of the Millennium." Yea right! Who writes your script. Self-deception is the worst deceit. Convince yourself of this lie and keep repeating it. But the only one you are fooling is yourself. If Satan was destroyed then that would be it! There would be no more Satan.

You would make such a good magician with your sleight of hand: now you see him, now you don't.

The Premil new earth is full of sin, sinners, death, widespread deception and feigned worship. It has Christ deceived by multiple millions of charlatans making their way to Jerusalem to watch the slitting of throats of goats and lambs for sin futile useless offerings. We then see the wholesale millennial evangelistic bust when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)? This whole proposal is a massive sham.

Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, and his baleful influence on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. It is both notable and amazing, in light of the loud noise, and constant boastings coming from the Premillennial camp re its ancient heritage, that for 240 years after the cross there is no existing Premillennial teaching pertaining to the populating of the millennium with the wicked and the release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming. Consequently, there was nothing taught by any traditional Chiliast before this that the second coming would be followed by Satan’s deceit of billions of millennial inhabitants, who come against the righteous as the sand of the sea in allegiance to Satan and overrun the millennium. For the first 240 years of the early church these key elements of Premil were either unknown or rejected by all the orthodox early church writers. This is not insignificant!

It is pointless engaging with one who doesn't want to know the truth and feels they have the liberty to twist the truth to say the opposite to what it says. Sad!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is disingenuous. The last 6,000 years has been the greatest uprising against God. You think there will be more people after 1,000 years, than all of Adam's wicked offspring of the last 6,000 years?

That goes against the point that broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life.

You are making up this near 100% rebellion in your dramatic over emotional description, which is just your own red herring.

Will there be a lot of deceived humans after the Millennium? More likely than not, but certainly not as dramatic as you make it sound.

And this deception is after the Millennium, and is turning the minds of righteous people without sin.

Satan succeeded in deceiving 33% of the angels. Certainly you don't think the other 66% were wicked sinners? Satan was 50% successful in the Garden with deceiving Eve. Eve was not a wicked sinner, before being deceived.

Since the industrial revolution and the spread of the Gospel, world population has jumped from millions to billions in 200 to 300 years. In the Millennium the population will go from millions to billions in the first 200 to 300 years, and exponentially grow without sin and death for another 700 to 800 years. It will only be the last few generations who will even be vulnerable to Satan. Those considered children under 100 years of age. Yet even 10% of the population in the end will be a couple billion. That is enough for your "sand of the seas" amount in first century comprehension.

Certainly not the massive near 100% rebellion you are making it out to be.

If there are trillions of angels. Then 33% is way more than the mere billions of humans on earth. Why don't you call heaven a bust and full of wicked goat infested creations? Or locust infested? When exactly do you expect that 5th Trumpet to sound and all those trillions of angels to arrive on earth? You all thinking you can hold out to a post trib second coming, when the population on earth is going to be way more crowded than any one can imagine. The redeemed will be about a .01% minority at that point.

Are you not giving Satan way more credit than he deserves?

Well, I'm Postrib, like PM, but your arguments are valid. I've been telling him for awhile now that his representation of Premil teaching on the Millennial period does not reflect Premil beliefs, and yet he doubles down. He's either acting very immature or really believes his own false presentation of Premil beliefs? I tend to lean towards the "immaturity" charge since his demeanor and character are so bad in virtually every post. I appreciate your clearly-stated complaint about what he's doing, illegitimately.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You said: "This just seems to be a review of what Paul said would happen at the 2nd Coming ... in accordance with John, the Devil is also destroyed, or defeated, at that time."

No Premil believes that, and you know that.

I'm a Premil, and I've told you I believe that. I can't say what a million other Premils believe with great specificity except that they believe in a future thousand year period of Christ's Kingdom on earth.

....it would show the wide difference between early Chiliasm and modern Premil and would confirm my thesis re the similarity between early Chiliasm and modern Amil.

I properly complain that your thesis is ludicrous, trying to make Premil and Chiliastic teaching essentially different and that Chiliasm is basically "Amil!"

Again, totally untrue! For you to admit the facts would expose Premil!

· Do you believe crying and dying continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe decay and disease continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe war and terror continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe Satan and his minions populate the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe mortals continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the unregenerate continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the bondage of corruption continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?

A whole lot of truths can be turned into one big lie just by adding a little salt to the dessert! Premils and Chiliasts alike view the Millennial Kingdom of Christ as ruled by the glorified, resurrected Church.

The result of this rule may be described differently, depending on the individual, but the basic idea is the same. The glorified Church prevents Satanic forces from disrupting the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promise, to restore Israel and to establish many Christian nations on earth.

To "rule over" people is to infer that there are imperfect mortals to be ruled over. To "rule over" them implies that their sins are kept to some degree in check. Your characterization ignores this entirely.

Not honesty. More lies. If you are telling the truth, produce your evidence. So far you have provided nothing. Your silence is deafening.

Brother, you are in the throes of bitterness. You can never post anything from one who disagrees with you with an ounce of civility or understanding! Maybe you just have bad character. Or maybe you just have a doctrine that you've made into an idol? Just sayin.'

I'm not a newcomer to Christianity. I was born into it from infancy. And I'm retired now. I was confirmed in Reform Theology as a Lutheran in my early teens. And I committed to Christ more as Lord of my life in my mid teens, leaving the Lutheran Church for more "spiritual" churches (less formal and perfunctory).

I know what bad character is, because I know when I see it in myself, as well. We should be able to disagree agreeably. But you don't show that you know how to do that. To you, it's either God or the Devil, your truth or the Devil's lies!

I don't like preaching to people in public, but you're driving me to it, because you won't stop. If you continue with this, I'm sure God will bring it home to you at some point. And I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that.

I do know what it's like to be humbled. And I prefer God going light on me!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I would recommend, when discussing subjects with great emotion, that we relax and think about what character we present in our disagreements. Nothing wrong with making emotional appeals, or even getting a little angry when we see bad behavior.

But as Christians we should know that it's very important to show good character when presenting God's truth. We represent Him, and if we fail to do that, what will happen to people who accept our doctrine? They will accept both the doctrine and the bad character! And we don't want to communicate that!

We can make our teaching, even if it's correct, into an idol. How do we know we're doing that? We can tell we're doing that when it becomes more important to relate our beliefs than serve someone else, to listen to what their spiritual needs really are. We can grow deaf to the Holy Spirit when we think we're on a roll in our argumentation.

So if we're going to teach on love, let's truly practice love. Those who teach will be judged more highly, because God expects us to practice what we preach. Obviously, this includes me, as well. God bless.

1 John 4.11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

 

[WPM]

To "rule over" people is to infer that there are imperfect mortals to be ruled over. To "rule over" them implies that their sins are kept to some degree in check. Your characterization ignores this entirely
.

This is all a figment of your imagination. It is fizz and bubble. Where do you get this in the Bible? Nowhere. Not that that matters to you as you make it up as you go with Scripture and the ECFs. Your avoidance of every question I present that calls out your fabrications is a case-in-point.

Brother, you are in the throes of bitterness. You can never post anything from one who disagrees with you with an ounce of civility or understanding! Maybe you just have bad character. Or maybe you just have a doctrine that you've made into an idol? Just sayin.'

Lol. This is your opt out every time - ad holiness. This sums up your behavior on this thread. So far you have zero evidence to bring to the table. Your filibuster tactics that simply exposed your ignorance of the subject.

I'm not a newcomer to Christianity. I was born into it from infancy. And I'm retired now. I was confirmed in Reform Theology as a Lutheran in my early teens. And I committed to Christ more as Lord of my life in my mid teens, leaving the Lutheran Church for more "spiritual" churches (less formal and perfunctory).

I know what bad character is, because I know when I see it in myself, as well. We should be able to disagree agreeably. But you don't show that you know how to do that. To you, it's either God or the Devil, your truth or the Devil's lies!

I don't like preaching to people in public, but you're driving me to it, because you won't stop. If you continue with this, I'm sure God will bring it home to you at some point. And I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that.

I do know what it's like to be humbled. And I prefer God going light on me!

Keep your pride, threats and insults to yourself. This seems to be the only territory you feel comfortable in.

 

[WPM]

I would recommend, when discussing subjects with great emotion, that we relax and think about what character we present in our disagreements. Nothing wrong with making emotional appeals, or even getting a little angry when we see bad behavior.

But as Christians we should know that it's very important to show good character when presenting God's truth. We represent Him, and if we fail to do that, what will happen to people who accept our doctrine? They will accept both the doctrine and the bad character! And we don't want to communicate that!

We can make our teaching, even if it's correct, into an idol. How do we know we're doing that? We can tell we're doing that when it becomes more important to relate our beliefs than serve someone else, to listen to what their spiritual needs really are. We can grow deaf to the Holy Spirit when we think we're on a roll in our argumentation.

So if we're going to teach on love, let's truly practice love. Those who teach will be judged more highly, because God expects us to practice what we preach. Obviously, this includes me, as well. God bless.

1 John 4.11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Then practice what you preach Instead of all your ad hominem. No harm to you, but, you are the last person I would take lectures from in regard to engagement here. Start by looking in the mirror.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Then practice what you preach Instead of all your ad hominem. No harm to you, but, you are the last person I would take lectures from in regard to engagement here. Start by looking in the mirror.

Yea, you don't seem very teachable. The Scriptures say it's wise to take lessons from friends and brothers, and sometimes even from enemies and donkeys. You're incorrigible, though I hope I'm wrong.

Your attitude is bad--that is a fact. This is not "ad hominem." Your attitude is terrible. You don't do well with opposition, particularly opposition that effectively answers what you think are "watertight" arguments.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Keep your pride, threats and insults to yourself. This seems to be the only territory you feel comfortable in.

On the contrary, I feel most comfortable speaking my mind with those who can discuss differences in a friendly way. Unfortunately, that is not always possible.

I've answered all your questions. That seems to upset you. Your problem...

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is all a figment of your imagination. It is fizz and bubble. Where do you get this in the Bible? Nowhere.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

No matter what I say, when you disagree with it you will insult it. You're wrong. I get this in the Bible and it is *not* "nowhere."

Here is where Christ is said to rule in his Kingdom. And we know that we will rule with him from Rev 2.26...

Rev 12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Eph 1.21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

Rom 15.12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.”

Not only does the Bible speak of Christ and the Church ruling over the mortal nations in the age to come, but it also speaks of us "judging* them.

Matt 19.28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 Cor 6.2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world?

Whether you agree with it or not, this is not "fizzle." This is what I believe God's word teaches. You choose to be insulting, and you think that by defending my dignity I'm acting in an ad hominem way toward you. Unbelievable!

I honestly believe the glorified Church will reign over a mortal, still sinful earth in the Millennial Age. You asked for my biblical basis, and I am showing you, just as I've shown you before, that the glorified Church rules, if it is to rule at all, over mortal, sinful humanity. Why would we rule over perfect, immortal people?

I really don't care to hear any response for you, because it's always insulting. This is only for those who care to listen with honesty and respect.

 

[WPM]

Yea, you don't seem very teachable. The Scriptures say it's wise to take lessons from friends and brothers, and sometimes even from enemies and donkeys. You're incorrigible, though I hope I'm wrong.

Your attitude is bad--that is a fact. This is not "ad hominem." Your attitude is terrible. You don't do well with opposition, particularly opposition that effectively answers what you think are "watertight" arguments.

This thread has embittered and frustrated you because you have nothing to refute the Op. All you are left with is insults and personal attacks. That is what you are most comfortable with. I am not.

I am done with you. Go somewhere you have something profitable to contribute.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This thread has embittered and frustrated you because you have nothing to refute the Op. All you are left with is insults and personal attacks. That is what you are most comfortable with. I am not.

I am done with you. Go somewhere you have something profitable to contribute.

You're wrong. I'm not frustrated at all. I'm at peace with God and with the fact I've given you good answers, even though they obviously frustrate you. Take care, and I hope you get well.