My question... can you identify the Scripture of when Jesus returns to earth...
Your answer post #753;
text of:
Matt 24: 35-44
2 Pet 3: 3-13
Rev 20: 11-15
Rev 21: 1-5
No, that is not Jesus returning to earth.
The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.
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My question... can you identify the Scripture of when Jesus returns to earth...
Your answer post #753;
text of:
Matt 24: 35-44
2 Pet 3: 3-13
Rev 20: 11-15
Rev 21: 1-5
No, that is not Jesus returning to earth.
You missed Scotts Point...the church is not present on earth during Tribulations God sends down from Heaven.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Op Note
The ironic thing is: in keeping with the early Amillennialists, many of the early Chiliasts emphasized the New Testament heavenly spiritual hope rather than an earthly carnal one, as most contemporary Premillennialists promote. They spiritualized the fulfillment of Israel's hope, relating it to the Church, the Promised Land being Christ, and, in doing so, they expose the faulty Premil literalist obsession.
Chiliast Methodius (Bishop of Olympus, Asia Minor) denounces the materialistic approach of the apostate Jews (which sadly many Premillennialists advocate today):
Methodius concludes, showing the feast of tabernacles to be a type of an incorruptible future millennial age:
Justin describes the spiritual nature of the kingdom that is approaching as spiritual and heavenly:
Justin did not look for a carnal temporary human kingdom on this earth when Christ comes, but a heavenly one. His words seem to dismiss the whole modern-day Premillennialist expectation of a restoration of old covenant practices with natural Israel being elevated above all others nation for a thousand years. He negates the idea of mortals saturating the new earth. Justin strongly responds: “For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ.”
The ironic thing is: in keeping with the early Amillennialists, many of the early Chiliasts emphasized the New Testament heavenly spiritual hope rather than an earthly carnal one, as most contemporary Premillennialists promote. They spiritualized the fulfillment of Israel's hope, relating it to the Church, the Promised Land being Christ, and, in doing so, they expose the faulty Premil literalist obsession.
Chiliast Methodius (Bishop of Olympus, Asia Minor) denounces the materialistic approach of the apostate Jews (which sadly many Premillennialists advocate today):
[T]he Jews, fluttering about the bare letter of Scripture, like drones about the leaves of herbs, but not about flowers and fruits as the bee, fully believe that these words and ordinances were spoken concerning such a tabernacle as they erect; as if God delighted in those trivial adornments which they, preparing, fabricate from trees, not perceiving the wealth of good things to come; whereas these things, being like air and phantom shadows, foretell the resurrection and the putting up of our tabernacle that had fallen upon the earth, which at length, in the seventh thousand of years, resuming again immortal, we shall celebrate the great feast of true tabernacles in the new and indissoluble creation, the fruits of the earth having been gathered in, and men no longer begetting and begotten, but God resting from the works of creation (Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9:1).
Methodius concludes, showing the feast of tabernacles to be a type of an incorruptible future millennial age:
Wherefore let it shame the Jews that they do not perceive the deep things of the Scriptures, thinking that nothing else than outward things are contained in the law and the prophets; for they, intent upon things earthly, have in greater esteem the riches of the world than the wealth which is of the soul (Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9:1).
Justin describes the spiritual nature of the kingdom that is approaching as spiritual and heavenly:
[W]hen you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter XI (11) —What Kingdom Christians Look For).
Justin did not look for a carnal temporary human kingdom on this earth when Christ comes, but a heavenly one. His words seem to dismiss the whole modern-day Premillennialist expectation of a restoration of old covenant practices with natural Israel being elevated above all others nation for a thousand years. He negates the idea of mortals saturating the new earth. Justin strongly responds: “For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ.”
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Op Note Continued
Tertullian wrote in Against Marcion Book III (Chapter 24):
Tertullian (160 – 220 AD) said in Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 38:
Tertullian wrote in On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Chapter 26):
Even Barnabas (who Premils wrongly claim was Premil) teaches The Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 6):
Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.
J. Lebreton aptly remarks, “not indeed to the deep thought of the Church, but, at least, to the danger which Judaism constituted for it, and the Church’s reaction to the danger.”
Barnabas continues in Chapter XVI:
This means that at an extremely early date, even perhaps overlapping with the writings of the Apostle John, there are those in the church who have replaced Israel entirely with the Church in terms of future blessings. As Diprose notes, ―Barnabas shows little respect for Old Testament institutions. For example, in chapter XVI, 7 a temple made with hands is likened to a habitation of demons, full of idolatry. The writing as a whole, manifests the latent presupposition that the Church, the true heir of the promises, occupies the place that Israel had always been unworthy of occupying. Obviously, to these kinds of Christians there can be no chiliastic hopes involving a restored national Israel, temple, and Jerusalem.
Tertullian further states:
He adds:
Lactantius also presents a spiritual expectation:
Tertullian wrote in Against Marcion Book III (Chapter 24):
As for the restoration of Judæa, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof … At present, too, it would be superfluous for this reason, that our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'let down from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven … We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake.
Tertullian (160 – 220 AD) said in Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 38:
You see how pertinent it was to the case in point. Because the question concerned the next world, and He was going to declare that no one marries there, He opens the way by laying down the principles that here, where there is death, there is also marriage. But they whom God shall account worthy of the possession of that world and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; forasmuch as they cannot die any more, since they become equal to the angels, being made the children of God and of the resurrection.
Tertullian wrote in On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Chapter 26):
In Isaiah, “‘Ye shall eat the good of the land’, the expression means the blessings which await the flesh when in the kingdom of God it shall be renewed, and made like the angels, and waiting to obtain the things ‘which neither eye hath seen, nor ear heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man’ … You will reckon, (I suppose) onions and truffles among earth's bounties, since the Lord declares that ‘man shall not live on bread alone!’ In this way the Jews lose heavenly blessings, by confining their hopes to earthly ones, being ignorant of the promise of heavenly bread, and of the oil of God’s unction, and the wine of the Spirit, and of that water of life which has its vigour from the vine of Christ. On exactly the same principle, they consider the special soil of Judæa to be that very holy land, which ought rather to be interpreted of the Lord’s flesh, which, in all those who put on Christ, is thenceforward the holy land; holy indeed by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, truly flowing with milk and honey by the sweetness of His assurance, truly Judæan by reason of the friendship of God.
Even Barnabas (who Premils wrongly claim was Premil) teaches The Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 6):
[T]he prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” … We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth.
Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.
J. Lebreton aptly remarks, “not indeed to the deep thought of the Church, but, at least, to the danger which Judaism constituted for it, and the Church’s reaction to the danger.”
Barnabas continues in Chapter XVI:
Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is—where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us … This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.
This means that at an extremely early date, even perhaps overlapping with the writings of the Apostle John, there are those in the church who have replaced Israel entirely with the Church in terms of future blessings. As Diprose notes, ―Barnabas shows little respect for Old Testament institutions. For example, in chapter XVI, 7 a temple made with hands is likened to a habitation of demons, full of idolatry. The writing as a whole, manifests the latent presupposition that the Church, the true heir of the promises, occupies the place that Israel had always been unworthy of occupying. Obviously, to these kinds of Christians there can be no chiliastic hopes involving a restored national Israel, temple, and Jerusalem.
Tertullian further states:
His Holy Spirit, who builds the church, which is indeed the temple, and household and city of God (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 23).
He adds:
For he had seen Christ the Lord, the temple of God, and also the gate by whom heaven is entered (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 25).
Lactantius also presents a spiritual expectation:
The world has been created for this purpose, that we may be born; we are born for this end, that we may acknowledge the Maker of the world and of ourselves — God; we acknowledge Him for this end, that we may worship Him; we worship Him for this end, that we may receive immortality as the reward of our labours, since the worship of God consists of the greatest labours; for this end we are rewarded with immortality, that being made like to the angels, we may serve the Supreme Father and Lord for ever, and may be to all eternity a kingdom to God. This is the sum of all things, this the secret of God, this the mystery of the world, from which they are estranged, who, following present gratification, have devoted themselves to the pursuit of earthly and frail goods, and by means of deadly enjoyments have sunk as it were in mire and mud their souls, which were born for heavenly pursuits (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 6).
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Oh my goodness, please put me on Ignore! Do you think I will miss anything you say, as if it has any value at all? I'm sick of your claims that I "duck around this" and "duck around that." I'm sick of your whining about how people speak nasty about you. I'm sick of your non-Christian attitude that never seeks to do good to those who oppose you, and never speaks kindly of an "enemy," which I'm not, by the way.
But you are in fact incorrigible. And I won't miss anything about that. Good by! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
This thread has clearly demolished your whole thesis. Your malice is palpable. You are spiteful to the end.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
More garbage being tossed at Premils? No, Chiliasts don't promote earthly carnal hopes, but the same one Paul stated:
Col 3.2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Premils, as all decent Christians, place their hope in Christ, who is presently in heaven. The things on earth are ruled by the spirit of the power of the air, which you seem to deny, thinking he has been put in a prison.
But even if we disagree on minor points, you are accusing fellow Christians, who are doctrinally orthodox, of deriving their beliefs from heretics and thus teaching heresy. Paul warned about divisive Christians.
Mark 16.17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
1 Cor 12.25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.
Titus 3.10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.
You've now been warned.
Your problem is, you think too highly of yourself. This is brazen coming from one who has dedicated themselves to insults and character assassination. It's time to look in the mirror. You're so thin-skinned!
Again, you refuse to deal with the issues. That is because you have no response.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No, my problem with you is a lack of charity. You don't demonstrate the virtues that Christ said we should have, that the Apostle John said was necessary for us to show. You create divisions over one very peripheral doctrine, and make it into one of the most important things in your life, without a hint of modesty. Christians should be able to discuss these things without being accused of "ducking things, or being called "bitter."
Then stop "ducking things" and stop the "bitterness." That is all you have, and you know it. Your toxic behavior is there for all to see. There is no hiding it. Why not go somewhere else where you are welcome and let those who have something of profit to bring to this discussion talk without the venom?
You are clearly out of control!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No, I'm here for the Lord, and for any brother or sister who is interested in sharing and learning. I'm not here for divisive brothers who make Amil the major thing that determines our unity or not.
Address the different issues above, which you have sidestepped, if you are sincere about that, and stop your ad hominem.
What has unity to do with this? Discussion Forums are marked by disagreement. You are one of the most divisive people here. You just cannot handle your avoidance being called out.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Let's let the Lord be the judge as to who is being divisive?
Dropship
Well-Known Member
When people delve into the deeper abstract allegorical/metaphorical/theological aspects of the Bible, it's little wonder that their interpretations differ, hence Paul's advice to keep it simple..
-Paul said- "I am worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)
Brother, I have no desire to offend you, frustrate you or stir you up. That is your choice. It was my aim to engage with posters that were interested in this subject and who would objectively critique my work. I have been studying and writing on this matter since 2008. The finding i have discovered are certainly shocking, and need acknowledged and addressed. But instead of being offended and applying false motives to me, and always taking offence, give me the benefit of the doubt and try and engage in a Christian manner.
I apologize for anything i have said to you out of frustration. This can be a passionate subject, so we all need to approach it in a clam and objective manner.
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