Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[quietthinker]

Jaws fail to recognize the true stature and the true position of the Son of God, their they fall short of recognizing the true sacrifice made by the Father in giving His Son to the human race, (an eternal transaction) and also fall short in recognizing the true depth of love for mankind by the Father and Son through what took place in the incarnation and Calvary.

Was it a transaction Bl or was it a revelation?

 

[Brakelite]

Was it a transaction Bl or was it a revelation?

Probably both, certainly a revelation of the love of God. The transaction was the exchange for a divine Spirit nature for human.

 

[tigger 2]

Oh, you reason most assuredly, and that is the problem. Your human reasoning blinds you to the truth. You see the word worship, and declare that when it applies to the Father, it is true worship, but when it applies to the Son, it is some lesser form of obeisance. That is arbitrary decision making based on assumptions regarding your understanding of begotten.

Oh, they are scriptural alright, but you make the scripture to say a lie.

He begat. That is the word the holy Spirit used. In every instance in scripture, that weird is used in the context of literal Father child relationships. Every time. You say you believe Jesus is the only begotten Son, but deny it by placing Him on the level of mortal man or the angels. I also believe he was begotten before creation, as scripture clearly declares the Son as the Creator of all things. All things. He didn't create himself. He wasn't created, He was begotten. Nowhere else in scripture does it use the word begotten in the sense of creating.

.......................................................................

Examining the Trinity: "Begotten" and "Created" as Found in Scripture

The Hebrew word yalad means "to bear, bring forth, beget"- Gesenius, #3205, but it can be used (as the equivalent English word also can) for "cause to be." For example, when God says he "begot"/"fathered" (yalad) the nation of Israel (Deut. 32:6, 18), he clearly means that he caused it to be or created it as a nation. There is no implication that it was somehow begotten out of the very substance of his body. In like manner God calls the nation of Israel his son, his firstborn because it was the very first nation created by him and for him (cf. Ex. 4:22). Again, anything Jehovah causes to be may be said to be "begotten" by him and is his "offspring."

"You forsook the creator who begot [yalad] you and ceased to care for God who brought you to birth." - Deut. 32:18, NEB.

"Men of Athens [non-Christians], .... The God who made the world and everything in it ... does not live in shrines made by man. .... Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold or silver, or stone..." - Acts 17:22, 24, 29, RSV.

In Ps. 90:2 we also see yalad used in the sense of created:

"Before the mountains were born [yalad] or you brought forth the earth" - NIV, AT, JB, NJB, NAB (1991), NASB; "begotten" - NAB (1970); "were given birth" - MLB. Or, "Before the mountains were created, before the earth was formed." - Living Bible, cf. TEV. So, the Hebrew word most often translated "begotten, brought forth" may also be understood (as in English) to mean created or produced.

1 Cor. 8:6 tells us, again, that God is the Father of ALL things. He is the Creator of all things. Of course, since he did not create himself, this is understood to mean the Father "out of whom all other things are."

 

[Brakelite]

1 Cor. 8:6 tells us, again, that God is the Father of ALL things. He is the Creator of all things. Of course, since he did not create himself, this is understood to mean the Father "out of whom all other things are."

The Father Created all things by the Word, His Son, Jesus Christ
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
2 Pet 3:5 by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of and in the water
Acts 17:24 God…made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth
Isa 40:28 the everlasting God, the Lord,
the Creator of the ends of the earth faints not, neither is weary
Isa 45:18 the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it.
The Father accomplished all this creative work by or through His Son, the Word of God. And the Word was God, and became flesh.

 

[Brakelite]

.......................................................................

Examining the Trinity: "Begotten" and "Created" as Found in Scripture

The Hebrew word yalad means "to bear, bring forth, beget"- Gesenius, #3205, but it can be used (as the equivalent English word also can) for "cause to be." For example, when God says he "begot"/"fathered" (yalad) the nation of Israel (Deut. 32:6, 18), he clearly means that he caused it to be or created it as a nation. There is no implication that it was somehow begotten out of the very substance of his body. In like manner God calls the nation of Israel his son, his firstborn because it was the very first nation created by him and for him (cf. Ex. 4:22). Again, anything Jehovah causes to be may be said to be "begotten" by him and is his "offspring."

"You forsook the creator who begot [yalad] you and ceased to care for God who brought you to birth." - Deut. 32:18, NEB.

"Men of Athens [non-Christians], .... The God who made the world and everything in it ... does not live in shrines made by man. .... Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold or silver, or stone..." - Acts 17:22, 24, 29, RSV.

In Ps. 90:2 we also see yalad used in the sense of created:

"Before the mountains were born [yalad] or you brought forth the earth" - NIV, AT, JB, NJB, NAB (1991), NASB; "begotten" - NAB (1970); "were given birth" - MLB. Or, "Before the mountains were created, before the earth was formed." - Living Bible, cf. TEV. So, the Hebrew word most often translated "begotten, brought forth" may also be understood (as in English) to mean created or produced.

1 Cor. 8:6 tells us, again, that God is the Father of ALL things. He is the Creator of all things. Of course, since he did not create himself, this is understood to mean the Father "out of whom all other things are."

Col 1:15____He is the First-born of every creature

This verse doesn't use the word arche, but prototokos, which literally means the first born child.
Prototokos, is only translated firstborn or firstbegotten and occurs only sixother times in the NT.

Heb 1:6 When God brought the firstbegotten into the world, the angels worshipped him
Matt 1:25 Mary brought forth her firstborn son. (Luke 2:27)
Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Rev 1:5 Jesus Christ...the firstbegotten of the dead
Rom 8:29 His Son...the firstborn among many brethren.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written in heaven
The firstborn held special significance for the Hebrews. God instructed Moses in the law of the firstborn.

Exod 13:2 Every firstborn of man and beast was to be dedicated (sanctified) to God.
Exod 11:5 It was the firstborn of Egypt that received the judgment of God.
What does it mean to be the firstborn of every creature? Was Christ the first creature ever to be born?
The Hebrew usage of firstborn helps explain this concept. The word in Hebrew is bikor: firstborn, chief son.
The firstborn received the birthright, the double blessing of inheritance.
Sadly, the history of the firstborn is a record of failure and disappointment.

Gen 27:32 Esau was the firstborn son of Isaac.
Gen 27:23 But Isaac was deceived into blessing Jacob the second born.
Exod 4:22 and God called Israel (Jacob) His firstborn
Gen 35:23 Reuben was the firstborn of Jacob.
Gen 49:3 Jacob said Reuben was his might, the beginning of his strength,
the excellency of dignity and power
vs 4 But he was unstable and would not excel.
Gen 49:9 Judah therefore became the royal line through whom Christ would descend.
Gen 38:7 Judah's firstborn was wicked before the Lord and the Lord eliminated his birthright.
Gen 41:51 Joseph's firstborn was Manasseh
Gen 48:14 But Jacob blessed the second born Ephraim instead.
So often the firstborn was not always the favored son, nor the one who received the birthright blessing.

Micah 6:7 Asks the question, "Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgressions?
Shall I give the fruit of my body for the sins of my soul?"
First, we here recognize the connection between first born and first fruit.
But a greater truth is here foretold. Micah 6:7 is actually foreshadowing The Great Firstborn.
God did give His First-born for our transgressions; the Fruit of His body for the sins of our souls.
So, the firstborn is the fruit of one's body, a child, an offspring. For example,

Ps 132:11,12 The fruit of David's body were his children.
1Cor 15:20,23 Christ is the firstfruits of them that sleep.
The law of the firstborn is also illustrated in the law of the first fruits.

Lev 23:10 They were to bring a sheaf of the first fruits of their harvest to the priest
who would wave it before the Lord
Deut 26:10 Bring the first fruits of the land and set it before the LORD the God and worship
Gal 3:16 The seed of Abraham is Christ
Why is Christ the First-born of every creature?

Col 1:16____For by Him were all things created

Jesus was the literal firstborn of God. But He was not created because He created all things.

Rev 1:14____He is the Amen, the true witness, the Leading Ruler of the creation of God.

The Father gives His name to the Son
This was given when He was begotten, before any other creatures existed.

Heb 1:4 He obtained a more excellent name by inheritance.
Ex 23:21,22 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, …obey his voice … for My name is in Him.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name.
"Jehovah is the name given to Christ."

 

[Brakelite]

.......................................................................

Examining the Trinity: "Begotten" and "Created" as Found in Scripture

The Hebrew word yalad means "to bear, bring forth, beget"- Gesenius, #3205, but it can be used (as the equivalent English word also can) for "cause to be." For example, when God says he "begot"/"fathered" (yalad) the nation of Israel (Deut. 32:6, 18), he clearly means that he caused it to be or created it as a nation. There is no implication that it was somehow begotten out of the very substance of his body. In like manner God calls the nation of Israel his son, his firstborn because it was the very first nation created by him and for him (cf. Ex. 4:22). Again, anything Jehovah causes to be may be said to be "begotten" by him and is his "offspring."

"You forsook the creator who begot [yalad] you and ceased to care for God who brought you to birth." - Deut. 32:18, NEB.

"Men of Athens [non-Christians], .... The God who made the world and everything in it ... does not live in shrines made by man. .... Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold or silver, or stone..." - Acts 17:22, 24, 29, RSV.

In Ps. 90:2 we also see yalad used in the sense of created:

"Before the mountains were born [yalad] or you brought forth the earth" - NIV, AT, JB, NJB, NAB (1991), NASB; "begotten" - NAB (1970); "were given birth" - MLB. Or, "Before the mountains were created, before the earth was formed." - Living Bible, cf. TEV. So, the Hebrew word most often translated "begotten, brought forth" may also be understood (as in English) to mean created or produced.

1 Cor. 8:6 tells us, again, that God is the Father of ALL things. He is the Creator of all things. Of course, since he did not create himself, this is understood to mean the Father "out of whom all other things are."

Please do not assume I am defending the creedal version of the trinity. I am defending the true Sonship of Jesus, a Sonship that by the counsel and power and word of the Father, made Jesus equal to the Father in all things except rank. That rank, the submission of the Son to the Father, is by itself contrary to the formulas created by the early church to explain God.

 

[Wrangler]

made Jesus equal to the Father in all things except rank.

That makes him unequal, right? Odd that Jesus is said to not seek equality with God and you are saying he’s equal.

 

[tigger 2]

Please do not assume I am defending the creedal version of the trinity. I am defending the true Sonship of Jesus, a Sonship that by the counsel and power and word of the Father, made Jesus equal to the Father in all things except rank. That rank, the submission of the Son to the Father, is by itself contrary to the formulas created by the early church to explain God.

........................................
I replied [post 123] to your statement: "Nowhere else in scripture does it use the word begotten in the sense of creating."

And this is your answer to that??

 

[WalterandDebbie]

That makes him unequal, right? Odd that Jesus is said to not seek equality with God and you are saying he’s equal.

No Sir, and where in scripture did Jesus say that? I find where Paul said:

PHILIPPIANS 2:6 KJV "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" (kingjamesbibleonline.org)

Also in John Five:1-30-47 Proof That Christ is Equal With God

1-9 Christ Heals The Impotent Man

1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.

8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Christ Breaks The Sabbath

10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?

13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Equality With God In Nature

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Equality With God In Power

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Equality With God In Authority

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Witness Of John The Baptist

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

Witness Of The Works Of Christ

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Witness Of The Scriptures

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.

42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Walter

 

[Brakelite]

........................................
I replied [post 123] to your statement: "Nowhere else in scripture does it use the word begotten in the sense of creating."

And this is your answer to that??

The word monogenes translated as begotten, is used in relation to parent child relationships. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Hope I'm correct in that though.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.115

• Jer 10:10 . . Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living god.

The Hebrew word for "living" in that passage is chay (khah'-ee) which first
appears in the Bible at Gen 1:20 where it speaks of aqua life and winged life.
Then it appears at Gen 1:24 where it speaks of life on land. It appears again
at Gen 2:7 where it speaks of human life and again at Gen 8:1 speaking of
all life aboard Noah's ark.

Flora life is never spoken of as chay. So I think we can limit the kind of life
spoken of by chay as conscious existence; viz: sentient life.

Jehovah is called the living god something like fifteen times in the Old
Testament, and fifteen more times in the New.

I'm unaware of any other gods in the whole Bible identified as living gods;
not even the people of Psalm 82 to whom God said "You are gods". (Those
gods are described as mortal; so they fail to qualify as living gods.)

Because of that; I think it safe to conclude that no other god is a living god.
In other words: labeling Jehovah as the living god is a way of saying He is
the only god that's perpetual, i.e. He always was, always is, and always shall
be. This has some serious ramifications because when speaking of Christ,
the Bible says:

• Col 2:9 . . It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells
bodily.

The Greek word for "divine quality" is theótes (theh-ot'-ace) which means:
divinity

Seeing as how theótes is modified by the Greek definite article "ho" then
what we're looking at here in Col 2:9 isn't nondescript divinity, but rather
the divinity. In other words: we're looking at all the fullness of the divinity of
the living god.

Just about everybody on both sides of the aisle agrees that the Word spoken
of at John 1:1 is a god. However: the Word isn't just any god; no, not when
all fullness of the divinity of the living god dwells in the Word; meaning of
course that the life that's in the Word always was, always is, and always
shall be, viz: the Word is a living god.

• John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in himself, so He has granted
also to the Son to have life in himself.

When the Father granted the Son to have life in himself just as the Father
has life in Himself, things got a bit complicated because unless Jehovah and
the Word are somehow different names for the same personage; there is
now a surplus of living gods out there.

NOTE: I highly recommend never debating the trinity with Jehovah's
Witnesses because it's far more important, and easier, to prove that Jehovah
wears two hats rather than three. Christianity, after all, is primarily about
the Son rather than the Spirit.

• John 16:13-14 . . When that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will
guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but
what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things
coming. That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine
and will declare it to you.
_

 

[quietthinker]

Probably both, certainly a revelation of the love of God. The transaction was the exchange for a divine Spirit nature for human.

I must admit, my carnal nature has not vanished. At times it surfaces with a fury....the temptations which I'm ashamed to say overcome me....sooo, I have difficulty seeing the idea of 'transaction' as an exchange.

I see the gift of the Spirit as a 'force' which does combat with the carnal nature.....and even though I succumb to the carnal nature at different times, the Spirit does not abandon me. I dust myself off and soldier on with new resolve and gratefulness of God's grace including his continued presence.

 

[tigger 2]

The word monogenes translated as begotten, is used in relation to parent child relationships. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Hope I'm correct in that though.

..........................................
I guess I misunderstood. The "mono" part of monogenes means 'only,' so the word is 'only-begotten.'

 

[Brakelite]

That makes him unequal, right? Odd that Jesus is said to not seek equality with God and you are saying he’s equal.

It makes Him equal in all things except rank. No need to cloud the truth of that statement. And for a time, as Philippians 2 says, Jesus set aside all His divine attributes in order to become subject to death, taking upon Himself man's fallen nature.

 

[Brakelite]

..........................................
I guess I misunderstood. The "mono" part of monogenes means 'only,' so the word is 'only-begotten.'

Yes. Only begotten of God.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Brake lite said,
Oh, you reason most assuredly, and that is the problem. Your human reasoning blinds you to the truth. You see the word worship, and declare that when it applies to the Father, it is true worship, but when it applies to the Son, it is some lesser form of obeisance. That is arbitrary decision making based on assumptions regarding your understanding of begotten.[/QUOTE\]

You can speak out against reasoning on the scriptures all you want, but the true God YHWH wants us to reason on the scriptures. Also while I understand you have the right to disagree, you saying to someone that there human reasoning blinds them, well see, it's easy to say that to anyone. You're not an infallible person, you can believe and say a person is reasoning only by human reasoning that doesn't necessarily mean that's true. Also it's easy for another imperfect person, which is what you are too, to say to you your human reasoning is blinding you.

Brakelite said,
Oh, they are scriptural alright, but you make the scripture to say a lie.[/QUOTE\]

I understand we disagree, I know you truly believe what you say is true, and that you believe it's consistent with Scripture. But you haven't said anything to me that I believe to be consistent with Scripture even though I know you honestly believe you have. See I've seen a lot of your posts and you take a lot of scripture out of context to try to prove what you believe, and I'm never going to agree with taking Scripture out of context. Now I know you're not going to agree with what I just said. But when a person takes Scripture out of context he/she can prove anything they want, that's why I'm not going to agree with anyone who takes scripture out of context.

Brakelite said,
He begat. That is the word the holy Spirit used. In every instance in scripture, that weird is used in the context of literal Father child relationships. Every time. You say you believe Jesus is the only begotten Son, but deny it by placing Him on the level of mortal man or the angels. I also believe he was begotten before creation, as scripture clearly declares the Son as the Creator of all things. All things. He didn't create himself. He wasn't created, He was begotten. Nowhere else in scripture does it use the word begotten in the sense of creating.[/QUOTE\]

Yes I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, not God.
The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1John 4:9) This is not referring to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. The only begotten Son of God who is the Logos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (John 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time, the only begotten Son of God, while in his prehuman state of existence, is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”(1John 4:9)

 

[Brakelite]

Yes I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, not God.
The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1John 4:9) This is not referring to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. The only begotten Son of God who is the Logos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (John 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time, the only begotten Son of God, while in his prehuman state of existence, is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”(1John 4:9)

Like begets like Barney.

 

[Wrangler]

No Sir, and where in scripture did Jesus say that? I find where Paul said:

PHILIPPIANS 2:6 KJV "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" (kingjamesbibleonline.org)

Also in John Five:1-30-47 Proof That Christ is Equal With God

I didn't say Jesus said that but what Jesus said is that God is greater than he and know more than he does. On top of that Jesus died and God is eternal and cannot change.

So, the notion of identifying what people have in common is NOT how you define being equal. If they are unequal in ANY way, they are unequal and above identifies 3 ways Jesus is less than God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

My 1st post in this thread answered that question. Let me know if anything I wrote needs to be clarified.

You said they say they are Christians, and read the Bible, thank you sir, a classic example of how one forgets previous posts, and how you are basically responding to the immediately previous post. Heck I have trouble remembering 2 posts back

 

[Robert Gwin]

Good believe and read the Bible. May the spirit guide to truth.

Very true, I plant, another waters, but based on the soil we plant in, it is ultimately God that makes it grow.