What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Matthias]

The text explains who the Word is, his equality with God and his manifestation in the flesh.

The text explains who the word became when incarnated.

I believe 1 John is John’s own commentary on his Gospel. I don’t see trinitarians at this level of conversation using it that way.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus isnt God has become an obsession bunch of bickering and arguing over it, thread after thread its pathetic.

The site made a wise choice to relegate us to the unorthodox forum. This is far better than other sites and some posters here who assert you cannot be a 'real' Christian unless you believe the man-is-god thesis.

Your observation shows there are plenty of self-identified Christians who nonetheless reject the man-is-god thesis. WHY we reject it is unacceptable to the 3-is-1-ism crowd. They hold no reason is sufficient.

Having said that, your observation of obsessive and pathetic bickering and argument reveals the trinity does not bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. Who is arguing against the idea that Jesus is not God? It takes 2 to argue.

 

[Peterlag]

Who is Israel? It is not the fleshly nation who Jesus condemned to abandonment, but a new nation of "Israel...the one Paul called "the Israel of God", made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who were anointed with God's spirit and given a heavenly inheritance as "adopted" sons of God.

Romans 2:28-29...
"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

Being a "Jew" according to their relationship with Abraham and circumcision of their flesh carried no weight if they failed to obey the Laws of their God....we know from the scriptures that they never could.

Matthew 3:7-10...."When he [John the Baptist] caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

In Matthew 23 Jesus condemned the Jewish nation outright saying that their leaders were going to "Gehenna" and taking the people who stuck to their teaching, with them. The natural Jews as a nation, have no further part with God, so he chose a new nation who would bear his name. (Acts 15:14) The ax fell and the trees were cut down....


Just because we believe something...doesn't make it true. There is no reason to take all Christians to heaven....God designed us humans to live on a carefully prepared earth. God already has a family of "sons" in heaven, created to live in that realm forever, as we are created to live in ours.
Someone messed that up and God has formulated the best way to deal with the rebels who led us here.


That is true in some ways.....the scripture I shared from Revelation 7:13-14 also spoke about 144,000 (V4) who were sealed and identified in Revelation 14 as being "bought from the earth as "firstfruits" to God... there are two groups who are saved, but who have different destinies....what do you think it means that the 144,000 are "firstfruits to God"?
These are identified as "Israel"....but they are not natural Israel. The "Israel of God" are Christians. (Galatians 6:16)


Yes, but the "founding of the world" is not talking about the creation of the planet...this is the founding of the "Kosmos"...the world of mankind, brought into existence after Adam and his wife sinned....they 'founded the world' that needed saving, and God had his solution all ready for such a contingency. He planned for the Kingdom and its appointed King to bring us back to his original purpose and to deal with the devil. Genesis 3:15 was the Bible's first prophesy but it remained shrouded in mystery until Messiah came and taught his disciples about the Kingdom of God, its purpose, and their place in it.


Jesus the man was not around before his human birth, but according to John and Paul this one who carries the title "the Word" (God's spokesman) has always had this role....he has always spoken for his God, long before he came from heaven to fulfill his role as redeemer.
He is the "firstborn of ALL creation"......what makes you think that doesn't mean what it says?


Israel was a type with its structure for the priesthood and the place of the Temple in their worship.....it pictured what is in place in heaven. Christ is now our High Priest and he has his priesthood to minister to the spiritual needs of the redeemed ones of mankind who survive the end times, and those who come back in the resurrection. He went back to heaven to present the value of his sacrifice to God in the grand spiritual Temple where his blood was accepted to cover all of our sins....

Hebrews 9:22-24...
"Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.

23 Therefore, it was necessary for the typical representations of the things in the heavens to be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things require far better sacrifices. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

Unfortunately Israel was a really bad example of what it means to be servants of Jehovah.....but God patiently kept them in existence until his purpose in connection with them was complete, then, when they murdered his son, he abandoned them as the serial covenant breakers that they were, and continue to be to this day, denying God's son as Messiah and waiting in vain for someone else to show up.....many think he has forgotten about them....

God chooses not to remember them.

It matters little to me whether you accept what I am presenting to you or not, but this is the truth as I understand the scriptures.....

There is no reason to take all Christians to heaven. Galatians 6:16)

*** All will be on the new earth or in heaven. But if you're going to talk about a split. Then I need a verse to go along with that.
I'm big with "in context." Verse 15 is saying there's one new nature and whoever walks in that will have peace and mercy and that will be upon Israel too. There is only one new nature. There's no more Jew or Gentile or this sin nature that the Catholics taught the entire Christian world.

*** Galatians 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

He is the "firstborn of ALL creation"......what makes you think that doesn't mean what it says?

*** 2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.

It matters little to me whether you accept what I am presenting to you or not, but this is the truth as I understand the scriptures...

*** It matters nothing to me as well. I'm only here to help if I can.

 

[Behold]

and we have a biblical example of an angel who spoke to john and said GET UP , WORSHIP ONLY GOD .
and yet Many folks were bowing before Christ and throwing crowns at his FEET .
even JOHN fell at his feet . I NEVER HEARD JESUS SAY GET UP and WORSHIP GOD .
Exactly . Folks just want to try and make JESUS into something else so they can merge the religoins as one .
Phillip , IF YA SEEN ME YOU HAVE SEEN the FATHER .
thomas , MY LORD and MY GOD . I Dont seem to remember JESUS saying , HEY THOMAS ON YOUR FEET
i am but a man . Exactly . NEVER SELL OUT MY FRIEND . NEVER SELL OUT . THE LORD IS OUR HOPE AND OUR SALVATION
and JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD and THE WORD IS GOD . THE BIBLE SAYS SO . WE BELEIVE THE BIBLE NOT MEN .

Jesus said.....'You believe in God....believe also in Me".

 

[Peterlag]

John 1:14

The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Mr E]

In the beginning (AFL, 1960), they were the Los Angeles Chargers. They moved to San Diego in '61. But wherever they were, they were beating my Broncos like a drum.

I wondered if anyone would pick up on that... bravo! YES! You see- "in the beginning" doesn't always mean in the "very" beginning. It can be the beginning of a chapter, an epoch of time, a story, and so on.

 

[Matthias]

The site made a wise choice to relegate us to the unorthodox forum. This is far better than other sites and some posters here who assert you cannot be a 'real' Christian unless you believe the man-is-god thesis.

Your observation shows there are plenty of self-identified Christians who nonetheless reject the man-is-god thesis. WHY we reject it is unacceptable to the 3-is-1-ism crowd. They hold no reason is sufficient.

Having said that, your observation of obsessive and pathetic bickering and argument reveals the trinity does not bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. Who is arguing against the idea that Jesus is not God? It takes 2 to argue.

Some days I refer to this area of the forums in conversation with non-members of Christianity Board as “the dungeon;” other days I refer to it as “the basement” or “the cellar”.

“Unorthodox” is a good choice of words. How many trinitarians do we encounter - on this and other online discussion forums - who reject orthodoxy? They are many and their numbers continue to climb.

This is the best area of the Board to engage with them.

I don’t mind that this site allows those who adhere to orthodoxy to post in this section (not that it would matter if I did) but it makes it more difficult to have conversations with those whom I’m most interested in speaking with.

 

[Peterlag]

In the new covenant, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, who entered into heaven itself to appear in the holy of holies, the sacred chamber of the heart of God's glorious presence for us. Jesus Christ is the promised seed and faithful High Priest, who fulfilled all the law, and is set between God and us because he is connected to both sides, and thereby he is able to work with God and with us. My mind boggles over God's heart of love, His compassion, and the tenderness to have Jesus Christ, who is the greatest food of all time, the bread of life, to establish a true and vital spiritual relationship between God and us.

 

[Wrangler]

May I ask for a verse anywhere in the New Testament where it says God became a man?

John 1:14

Nowhere in John 1:14 does it say YHWH became man. Compare to the explicit Ps 83:18.

NOG: so that they must acknowledge you. Your name is Yahweh. You alone are Elyon of the whole earth.
NLT: Then they will learn that you alone are called the LORD, that you alone are the Most High, supreme over all the earth.​

The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth. NOG

 

[RLT63]

The text explains who the word became when incarnated.

I believe 1 John is John’s own commentary on his Gospel. I don’t see trinitarians at this level of conversation using it that way.

1 John 1:1-3 says the same thing as John 1 in my opinion. I think I've contributed all I need to to this discussion I will leave y'all to it. It's the same conversation as PeterIag's other thread.

 

[Wrangler]

Those dirty translators again! How dare they not agree with your opinion ? You should publish your own translation and straighten everything out. Good thing there's a paraphrase like the NLT in the meantime.

Funny since I did not even mention translators in my post. I guess you are convicted by the HS that trinitarian translators have altered God's Word to try to get it to support the trinity when the unitarian text cannot support the trinity.

I recall asking you a question about a verse. The question was who did X. You answered 'the Father' as a trinitarian when the verse explicitly stated God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature - in juxtaposition to Jesus, which contaminates the entire NT for trinitarianism. Not too intellectually honest.

Since you have contempt for easier reading thought translations, which I prefer, I provide the ESV, the translation that prides itself on being the most word for word literal translation available for your consideration.


With one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 15:6 ESV

 

[Matthias]

I wondered if anyone would pick up on that... bravo! YES! You see- "in the beginning" doesn't always mean in the "very" beginning. It can be the beginning of a chapter, an epoch of time, a story, and so on.

I was an AFL guy back in the 60’s. George Blanda (played football at the University of Kentucky) drew my attention to the Oakland Raiders. I later became a Cincinnati Bengals fan. After moving to Atlanta, I became an Atlanta Falcons fan. After the NFL went woke, I stopped watching the NFL.

When I was a kid, I ate up the music used in NFL Films. West Side Rumble was my favorite, but they had a lot of great music that stirred the soul.

 

[Taken]

What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
OP ^

It (the meaning), requires a Belief of Understanding KNOWLEDGE of God.

In Genesis God SAYS...”us and our”, speaking of Himself.
Study reveals; God speaking of Himself as “us and our”...
Is a reference to the WHOLE of God...
* His, thoughts, will, desire, pleasure, ideas.
* His, power, Spirit, ability.
* His, word, declaration.

Study reveals; the WHOLE of God, IS God, Can come forth out from God, Yet remains IN God, IS always IN Agreement, IS always Righteous, The Whole of God IS His own counselor.

ManKIND, was CREATED, with a Brain, a Heart, a Tongue.
ManKIND, was MADE, Alive via a SOUL.

* Once Alive, the Brain, can Think, Thinking of the Brain, IS:......The act of a Carnal Mind.
The Carnal Mind, can think truths, lies, concoct deception, concoct goodness.

* Once Alive, the Heart, has Thoughts, It’s Natural Truths,
IS: ..... The natural spirit of the man.

* Once Alive the Tongue can Speak the Thoughts of it’s Carnal Mind....Truths, Lies, Plans of Deceptions, Plans of goodness.
* Once Alive, the Tongue, can Speak the Thoughts, of it’s Natural spirit....Truths.

The Whole of man IS:
His thoughts, his word, his declarations....
His thoughts, his word, his declarations come forth out from him, while remaining in him.

Man was Created from DUST, then MADE Alive in Gods LIKENESS...
Whole, with thoughts, words, declarations.
Man was Made to reproduce its SAME KIND of thing from it SEED.
When mans SEED became Corrupt, so also is what he reproduces the Same Corrupt KIND of man.

Jesus’ OFFERED all men to BECOME “MADE” “Acceptably anew, According TO and By, Through and Of the POWER OF GOD”

ANY man CAN Agree and Take Jesus’ Offering.....OR NOT!

ANY man WHO of his own Freewill chooses to Agree, Accept and Take Christ the Lord Jesus’ Offering.....DOES SO ONCE and FOREVER.

It appears sadly obvious the majority of men calling themselves “Christians”, Have not a Clue to the Order, Way and Understanding of Christ the Lord Jesus’ Offering.

 

[Wrangler]

1 John 1:1-3 says the same thing as John 1 in my opinion.

It's amazing that you can make a word substitution to support your doctrine but cannot make a Father to God substitution to undermine your doctrine.

1 John 1:3 And we share in it with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1 COR 8:6: For us, there is one God, the Father.

 

[Matthias]

1 John 1:1-3 says the same thing as John 1 in my opinion.

I’m planning on posting more on the relationship between the Epistle and the Gospel. I’ll get around to it one of these days.

I think I've contributed all I need to to this discussion I will leave y'all to it. It's the same conversation as PeterIag's other thread.

No one even bothered to comment on my contribution. That’s fine. Anyone who knows me well - or anyone who doesn’t know me well but has spent an extended period of time around me - will tell you that I talk to the wind. I think @Mr E would vouch for me if I asked him to.

It’s the same conversation because it’s the same people discussing the same general topic. It’s never ending, unless we want it to. I don’t so I’ll stick around.

Among other things, I’m a teacher, and I’m always looking for ways to say the same thing another way.

 

[RLT63]

Funny since I did not even mention translators in my post. I guess you are convicted by the HS that trinitarian translators have altered God's Word to try to get it to support the trinity when the unitarian text cannot support the trinity.

I recall asking you a question about a verse. The question was who did X. You answered 'the Father' as a trinitarian when the verse explicitly stated God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature - in juxtaposition to Jesus, which contaminates the entire NT for trinitarianism. Not too intellectually honest.

Since you have contempt for easier reading thought translations, which I prefer, I provide the ESV, the translation that prides itself on being the most word for word literal translation available for your consideration.


With one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 15:6 ESV

You did call out the translators for bias. That's what I was referring to. Click on your comments in the post and you can read it for yourself. As far as the Father that is what Jesus called him most of the time.

 

[Charlie24]

May I ask for a verse anywhere in the New Testament where it says God became a man?

Peterlag, have you ever read the Bible? It might pay you to read it before questioning it.

Philippians 2:7-8

 

[Matthias]

You did call out the translators for bias.

I call out translators for bias. Here’s an example of translator bias using translations which you believe most accurately reflects what Paul is saying in Colossians 1:16 -

“For by him were all things created …” (ESV) Notice, the trinitarian translators didn’t capitalize the “h” in “him”.

“For by Him all things were created …” (NKJV). Notice, the trinitarian translators capitalized the “h” in “Him”.

There is nothing at all in the Greek manuscripts that requires the translators to capitalize. The manuscripts are written in all lower case, or all upper case.

Here’s an example of translator bias (from a trinitarian perspective) using a translation which I believe most accurately reflects what Paul is saying in Colossians 1:16 -

“For in him were created …” (NABRE). Notice, the trinitarian translators didn’t capitalize the “h” in “him”. This is a Roman Catholic translation. Why didn’t the trinitarian translators capitalize the “h”? What does it make you think when it is capitalized?

What does it make you think when it isn’t? (Trinitarians at this level have often told me that it is blasphemy and that it must be a non-trinitarian translation!)

And what is the difference between “by him” and “in him”? Both are found in trinitarian translations. There is a difference in the meaning of the respective phrases.

 

[Wrangler]

You did call out the translators for bias.

Not in the post in question. I thought you gave me grief for not following the conversation? I guess that does not apply to you.

Again, I understand the HS has convicted you.

As far as the Father that is what Jesus called him most of the time.

True but irrelevant to the point of the post.

 

[Matthias]

“Have you ever read the Bible? It might pay you to read it before questioning it.”

In conversation with someone who self-identifies as a Christian, this is a dialogue killer.

What would “you” - the Christian reader - think if I said this to “you”? Would it make “you” happy? Would it make “you” angry? Would “you” feel disrespected? Would it make “you” want to continue a conversation with me? Would it cause “you” to move along to someone else? Would it cause “you” to treat me as I treated “you”? Would it cause “you” to treat me as “you” would like me to treat “you”?

I read the scriptures daily and have for about 40 years. I’ve been a Christian for a long time, and a minister for a goodly portion of that time. I would be a wealthy Christian minister if a had a dollar for every time a person who self-identifies as a Christian has asked me, “Have you ever read John 1:1?”

That’s a dialogue killer. Once delivered, I have a decision to make. What I decide about proceeding varies; how I decide about proceeding doesn’t.