What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Peterlag]

It would be easier to respond if you could simply place your questions and responses in the quote boxes....but here goes....


Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is “the firstborn of ALL creation” which means “ALL creation”.....it doesn’t require the mention of 'trees and oceans' because “all creation” is all encompassing....you are interpreting that to mean what scripture does not say. Jesus was "with" his Father "in the beginning", which indicates the beginning of creation. The pre-human Jesus was always God's "only begotten son"....it was by means of him that ALL creation came into existence.....he is "the beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14)...no tap dancing required.


Revelation 20:6....
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."
The “first resurrection” is only for those who are of the "elect”. These alone will rule with Christ for a thousand years. They have a specific role, and those who are raised to life in the second, or general resurrection will live on earth, (John 5:28-29) with these heavenly kings guiding and directing them through the reign of the kingdom to achieve human perfection (the removal of sin) before the devil is let loose to test mankind one last time. (Revelation:20:1-3).
Confirmation is in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16...."For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."
There is an order to the resurrection. Some will go to heaven in rulership positions, but the majority of those resurrected will restore God's first purpose to "fill the earth" with a perfect sinless human race. (Isaiah 55:11)

If all Christians are going to heaven, what was the point of creating humans on earth? (Isaiah 45:18)


Hebrews 3:1...”Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus.”
Paul mentioned those who have “the heavenly calling”, because not all did. It is God who calls them....it’s not a role we can volunteer for, or simply by calling ourselves “Christians”.
God has criteria for these ones who must prove faithful to their death. Not everyone is cut out to be a king and a priest because one needs to qualify by their life course, not simply by the label they wear....or the things they believe. How many different beliefs are there among those who identify as Christians? They can’t all be right...but they could all be wrong. The “weeds” are after all, a product of the devil.....a clever counterfeiter.


This clearly differentiates between those who are chosen as “saints” and those who are Christians but who are not “called” to heaven. Whether you are part of that group or not is between you and God....that is not my call.

I am not one who has received “the heavenly calling” but I know some who have. They are not any different to the rest of the congregation but are diminishing in numbers as we draw closer to the end, as we would expect.....only those of the elect left on earth when Christ returns as judge, will experience an immediate transformation to spirit life. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)


Again...not my call, or my business. But I believe that this scriptures also identifies two groups who will be redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice. These were seen by the apostle John in his Revelation where he saw 144,000 (chosen from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4) and he also sees another “unnumbered” group who are also Christians, and asks the angel who they are?

Revelation 7:13-14....“In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The “great tribulation” occurs on earth and these ones are survivors....saved through “the end” of that world, just like Noah and his family were saved through the flood. God did not save Noah but told him how to save himself.....it required effort in the face of great opposition and hostility....and we have received the same instruction, and must also face the same kind of hostility. (Matthew 24:37-39; John 15:18-21)

It’s all about interpretation....not just “what” we believe, but “who”..... and the fact that Christ’s true disciples would be a global brotherhood, united in belief and practice (1 Corinthians 1:10) and who will be found “doing the will of the Father” when we all face Jesus as our judge. (Matthew 7:21-23) He will not look at labels but at what we accept as truth. Since it is is God who reveals his truth to us, (John 6:65) he will gather his people into one group who will be a hated minority because they will not accept what the “weeds” of Christendom teach. (John 15:18-21) They will have accepted the truth as God has revealed it to them.

If we prefer our own ideas, then God will allow us to keep them. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
He will never force us to believe what we do not want to....he doesn’t have to.

As it says in Matthew 7:21-23, at the judgment, the majority will find themselves rejected by the one they claim as their “Lord”. They have been on the wrong road all along. (Matthew 7:13-14)

There is but one truth, and it’s up to us to ask God to reveal it to us.....he will if our minds and hearts are not set in concrete.

I believe you are mixing the resurrection of Israel and the Christian one all together. As for who will be in heaven. We all might be on the new earth with Christ since that is where he will be with Israel. This I don't care about. What I do care about is those who are in Christ and I believe those folks to be all Christian. Many churches teach God called certain people because the New Testament has places where it talks about those who God called. I think God called everyone and only certain people answered the call. In Ephesians 1:4, it says God chose us in Christ beforehand, and in Revelation 17:8, it says certain names have been written in a book from the foundation of the world. It's the group, the body of Christ that is foreordained from the foundation of the world, and not specific individuals selected by God for salvation. We are not going to agree if you think Jesus was around before he was born. Or if you do not believe in the different administrations in the Bible. If you think what applied to Israel is the same for the one body of Christ.

 

[RLT63]

It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is. Reading the book of Colossians reveals that the Colossians Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had in practice forsaken their connection with the head who is Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18-19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ's headship over his Church and the Epistle to the Colossians provided just that. There is no definitive reason to believe the believers in Colosse were Trinitarian. A thorough reading of Acts shows that no Apostle or teacher in Acts ever presented the Trinity on their witnessing itineraries. Instead they presented that Jesus was "...a man approved of God..." (Acts 2:22), God's "servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13), God's "Prince" (Acts 5:31), the "one anointed" (Acts 10:38), the "Son of God" (Acts 9:20). Acts has no presentation to new Christians that Jesus was God, nor was there any formal presentation of the Trinity and Colosse was reached with the Word during the Acts period. This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38). The Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, which is the "new man" their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24). Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel"). And in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

We are in a position to more fully understand verse 16 once we understand that Jesus created things for the Church. The word "all" is used in the Bible in a limited sense just the way we also use it today. My wife told me the kids ate all the cookies. She did not mean the kids ate all the cookies in the world, but rather just the cookies that were in the house. 2 Samuel 17:14 says "...all the men of Israel..." agreed on advice when Absalom held a council against his father David. "All" the men of Israel did not agree with Absalom, but all the men who were there with him did. Jeremiah 26:8 says "all the people" seized Jeremiah to put him to death. All the people did not mean all the people on the planet, but rather all the people who were there. Understand? One must determine from the context if "all" is being used in the wide sense of "all in the universe" or in the narrow sense of "all in a specific" context. I believe the narrow sense is being applied in Colossians 1:16 when it says Jesus created "all" things for his Church and not "all" things in the universe.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church, which he created for that purpose because these are the things Jesus needed to administer his Church. The Colossians believers had lost their focus on Christ as the head of the Church and Colossians 1:16 elevates Christ to his rightful position as Lord by noting that he was the one who created the powers and authorities in the Church.

Thank you for explaining why the verse doesn't say what it clearly says. It's as if I have an apple and you are explaining why it is an orange.

 

[Peterlag]

Thank you for explaining why the verse doesn't say what it clearly says. It's as if I have an apple and you are explaining why it is an orange.

All the things "created" in that list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Really? The entire purpose of Christ's ministry, to re-create, to make man born again of Spirit not flesh, you do not see at all? Wow!

Or do you merely mean that you do not see it in Col 1:16?

I see the original purpose of God as recorded in Genesis being restored....a sinless race of mortal humankind living forever in paradise on earth.

Isaiah 45:18...
"For this is what Jehovah says,
The Creator of the heavens, the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,
Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited:

“I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."

He did not create the earth as a training ground for heaven.....the earth was to be man's paradise home forever....that is what the "tree of life" was for....to ensure that man could "live forever" in his mortal flesh, as long as they were obedient there was no impediment to their partaking of this tree. Only one tree was off limits, but the devil made it look very attractive to the woman and deceived her. Adam was not deceived and was faced with making an awful choice....side with his God and lose his wife....or side with his wife and lose his life. He chose badly and threw all of his children under the bus.

I do not see heaven as the destination for all of Christ's followers....only the elect who are chosen to be "kings and priests", assisting their King in the administration of his duties, will experience the same resurrection as Christ's......dying in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18).
The ones redeemed by Christ's sacrifice will have an opportunity to experience the life that God intended for them at the beginning....no matter if they are living or have passed away. Jesus will resurrect all the dead in "sheol" where they have been peacefully sleeping all this time. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

I see what was intended in Genesis, delivered in Revelation 21:2-4.....what do you see?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe you are mixing the resurrection of Israel and the Christian one all together. As for who will be in heaven. We all might be on the new earth with Christ since that is where he will be with Israel.

Who is Israel? It is not the fleshly nation who Jesus condemned to abandonment, but a new nation of "Israel...the one Paul called "the Israel of God", made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who were anointed with God's spirit and given a heavenly inheritance as "adopted" sons of God.

Romans 2:28-29...
"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

Being a "Jew" according to their relationship with Abraham and circumcision of their flesh carried no weight if they failed to obey the Laws of their God....we know from the scriptures that they never could.

Matthew 3:7-10...."When he [John the Baptist] caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

In Matthew 23 Jesus condemned the Jewish nation outright saying that their leaders were going to "Gehenna" and taking the people who stuck to their teaching, with them. The natural Jews as a nation, have no further part with God, so he chose a new nation who would bear his name. (Acts 15:14) The ax fell and the trees were cut down....

This I don't care about. What I do care about is those who are in Christ and I believe those folks to be all Christian.

Just because we believe something...doesn't make it true. There is no reason to take all Christians to heaven....God designed us humans to live on a carefully prepared earth. God already has a family of "sons" in heaven, created to live in that realm forever, as we are created to live in ours.
Someone messed that up and God has formulated the best way to deal with the rebels who led us here.

Many churches teach God called certain people because the New Testament has places where it talks about those who God called. I think God called everyone and only certain people answered the call.

That is true in some ways.....the scripture I shared from Revelation 7:13-14 also spoke about 144,000 (V4) who were sealed and identified in Revelation 14 as being "bought from the earth as "firstfruits" to God... there are two groups who are saved, but who have different destinies....what do you think it means that the 144,000 are "firstfruits to God"?
These are identified as "Israel"....but they are not natural Israel. The "Israel of God" are Christians. (Galatians 6:16)

In Ephesians 1:4, it says God chose us in Christ beforehand, and in Revelation 17:8, it says certain names have been written in a book from the foundation of the world. It's the group, the body of Christ that is foreordained from the foundation of the world, and not specific individuals selected by God for salvation.

Yes, but the "founding of the world" is not talking about the creation of the planet...this is the founding of the "Kosmos"...the world of mankind, brought into existence after Adam and his wife sinned....they 'founded the world' that needed saving, and God had his solution all ready for such a contingency. He planned for the Kingdom and its appointed King to bring us back to his original purpose and to deal with the devil. Genesis 3:15 was the Bible's first prophesy but it remained shrouded in mystery until Messiah came and taught his disciples about the Kingdom of God, its purpose, and their place in it.

We are not going to agree if you think Jesus was around before he was born.

Jesus the man was not around before his human birth, but according to John and Paul this one who carries the title "the Word" (God's spokesman) has always had this role....he has always spoken for his God, long before he came from heaven to fulfill his role as redeemer.
He is the "firstborn of ALL creation"......what makes you think that doesn't mean what it says?

Or if you do not believe in the different administrations in the Bible. If you think what applied to Israel is the same for the one body of Christ.

Israel was a type with its structure for the priesthood and the place of the Temple in their worship.....it pictured what is in place in heaven. Christ is now our High Priest and he has his priesthood to minister to the spiritual needs of the redeemed ones of mankind who survive the end times, and those who come back in the resurrection. He went back to heaven to present the value of his sacrifice to God in the grand spiritual Temple where his blood was accepted to cover all of our sins....

Hebrews 9:22-24...
"Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.

23 Therefore, it was necessary for the typical representations of the things in the heavens to be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things require far better sacrifices. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

Unfortunately Israel was a really bad example of what it means to be servants of Jehovah.....but God patiently kept them in existence until his purpose in connection with them was complete, then, when they murdered his son, he abandoned them as the serial covenant breakers that they were, and continue to be to this day, denying God's son as Messiah and waiting in vain for someone else to show up.....many think he has forgotten about them....

God chooses not to remember them.

It matters little to me whether you accept what I am presenting to you or not, but this is the truth as I understand the scriptures.....

 

[BeyondET]

Jesus isnt God has become an obsession bunch of bickering and arguing over it, thread after thread its pathetic.

 

[Lambano]

-If you and I were in conversation and my team is what is now known as the LA Chargers. Talking with you about football, ifI I said something like-- "In the beginning, they were the San Diego Chargers." -because I'm a San Diego guy and that's how I will always think about them.

In the beginning (AFL, 1960), they were the Los Angeles Chargers. They moved to San Diego in '61. But wherever they were, they were beating my Broncos like a drum.

 

[RLT63]

All the things "created" in that list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church.

Repeating your opinion will not change what the verse says.

 

[Wrangler]

Really? The entire purpose of Christ's ministry, to re-create, to make man born again of Spirit not flesh, you do not see at all? Wow!

Or do you merely mean that you do not see it in Col 1:16?

I see what was intended in Genesis, delivered in Revelation 21:2-4.....what do you see?

I see you cannot simply answer a simple yes or no question.

 

[Wrangler]

Repeating your opinion will not change what the verse says.

EXACTLY! And what the verse says is Jesus is NOT God. Everything was created FOR and THROUGH but not BY Jesus. So simple, even a trinitarian can understand it.

Here is where biased trinitarian translators seek to modify the word of God to fit their dogma. This is why I seek out different translations. The NLT is the one I prefer for this verse for it makes it clear the creating is being done, not by Jesus but by God. (The juxtaposition cannot be acknowledged by trinitarians).
Christ Is Supreme
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,[a]
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
Colossians 1:15-17 NLT
In this sentence, "Christ" is the "him" through which Creation happened. Who did this creating is explicitly not Jesus in the NLT rendering but God.

 

[RLT63]

EXACTLY! And what the verse says is Jesus is NOT God. Everything was created FOR and THROUGH but not BY Jesus. So simple, even a trinitarian can understand it.

Those dirty translators again! How dare they not agree with your opinion ? You should publish your own translation and straighten everything out. Good thing there's a paraphrase like the NLT in the meantime.

 

[Charlie24]

It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is. Reading the book of Colossians reveals that the Colossians Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had in practice forsaken their connection with the head who is Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18-19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ's headship over his Church and the Epistle to the Colossians provided just that. There is no definitive reason to believe the believers in Colosse were Trinitarian. A thorough reading of Acts shows that no Apostle or teacher in Acts ever presented the Trinity on their witnessing itineraries. Instead they presented that Jesus was "...a man approved of God..." (Acts 2:22), God's "servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13), God's "Prince" (Acts 5:31), the "one anointed" (Acts 10:38), the "Son of God" (Acts 9:20). Acts has no presentation to new Christians that Jesus was God, nor was there any formal presentation of the Trinity and Colosse was reached with the Word during the Acts period. This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38). The Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, which is the "new man" their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24). Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel"). And in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

We are in a position to more fully understand verse 16 once we understand that Jesus created things for the Church. The word "all" is used in the Bible in a limited sense just the way we also use it today. My wife told me the kids ate all the cookies. She did not mean the kids ate all the cookies in the world, but rather just the cookies that were in the house. 2 Samuel 17:14 says "...all the men of Israel..." agreed on advice when Absalom held a council against his father David. "All" the men of Israel did not agree with Absalom, but all the men who were there with him did. Jeremiah 26:8 says "all the people" seized Jeremiah to put him to death. All the people did not mean all the people on the planet, but rather all the people who were there. Understand? One must determine from the context if "all" is being used in the wide sense of "all in the universe" or in the narrow sense of "all in a specific" context. I believe the narrow sense is being applied in Colossians 1:16 when it says Jesus created "all" things for his Church and not "all" things in the universe.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church, which he created for that purpose because these are the things Jesus needed to administer his Church. The Colossians believers had lost their focus on Christ as the head of the Church and Colossians 1:16 elevates Christ to his rightful position as Lord by noting that he was the one who created the powers and authorities in the Church.

It should be obvious to the Bible student that the Scripture places more value on Christ being the Saviour than Him being God.

Christ being God could not redeem man, it took God becoming man, lowering Himself from the Glory He had with the Father from eternity past.

This is how Christ is portrayed in Scripture, the Suffering Servant for the sole purpose of redeeming man. It's a sad situation not being able to see that only God Himself could do this!

What is heartbreaking is that our relationship with our Saviour is a relationship with the Almighty God who created everything, and many are blind to that fact! But some just straight up deny it with the evidence starring them right in the face.

 

[Peterlag]

It should be obvious to the Bible student that the Scripture places more value on Christ being the Saviour than Him being God.

Christ being God could not redeem man, it took God becoming man, lowering Himself from the Glory He had with the Father from eternity past.

This is how Christ is portrayed in Scripture, the Suffering Servant for the sole purpose of redeeming man. It's a sad situation not being able to see that only God Himself could do this!

What is heartbreaking is that our relationship with our Saviour is a relationship with the Almighty God who created everything, and many are blind to that fact! But some just straight up deny it with the evidence starring them right in the face.

May I ask for a verse anywhere in the New Testament where it says God became a man?

 

[RLT63]

May I ask for a verse anywhere in the New Testament where it says God became a man?

John 1:14

 

[Peterlag]

Repeating your opinion will not change what the verse says.

The words "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, are not my opinion. They are really there right in the verse.

 

[Matthias]

May I ask for a verse anywhere in the New Testament where it says God became a man?

There is no such verse anywhere in scripture - Old Testament and New Testament. There is post-biblical commentary which places it there.

 

[Matthias]

John 1:14

God’s logos became flesh. This is incarnation; enfleshment.

Theologies will explain what this incarnation is and what it means.

 

[Matthias]

Those dirty translators again!

They aren’t dirty. They are, in most instances, highly skilled and trained trinitarian scholars.

On the whole, I think they’ve done an outstanding job.

All translations have strengths and weaknesses, and there is such a thing as translator bias. Those who work as translators openly acknowledge it.

 

[RLT63]

God’s logos became flesh. This is incarnation; enfleshment.

Theologies will explain what this incarnation is and what it means.

The text explains who the Word is, his equality with God and his manifestation in the flesh.

 

[Matthias]

Colossians 1:16. Some translations say “by him,” other translations say “in him”. Translators must make a decision between the two possibilities.

Some trinitarian scholars made the decision to render it “by him;” other trinitarian scholars made the decision to render it “in him”. I encourage readers to compare translations for themselves. Bible Gateway is an excellent online resource for making such comparisons, but not the only resource for comparing.