What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Aunty Jane]

I see you cannot simply answer a simple yes or no question.

LOL....Nope ....there is nothing in the Bible that does not require a thorough and exhaustive investigation....NOT because it isn’t the word of God, but because the devil planted “weeds” of counterfeit Christianity to lead people off in many different directions through individual or collective interpretation of God’s word....twisting the scriptures to support a viewpoint rather than allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

If we interpret incorrectly or follow the lead of those who do, we are sunk. So how do we know who is teaching the truth? Those whom Jesus rejects at the judgment seem shocked that he would say he “never knew” them....(Matthew 7:21-23) They try to justify themselves to him by enumerating all the things they did “in his name”...but it’s no use. In his eyes they are “workers of lawlessness” whom he has never regarded as his disciples....but how?

There is a “faithful and wise slave” whom Jesus appointed to “feed” his fellow slaves, “their food at the proper time”....(Matthew 24:45) This was given as part of Jesus prophesy on the time for his return, and his “faithful slave” will be rewarded for a job well done, appointing him over all his belongings. (Matthew 24:46-47) So who is the “slave”? That is the question we all have to ask.....who do you think he is...and is he an individual or a collective who is guiding and directing Jesus’s sheep?

Read Revelation 21:2-4....
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (ESV)

Now, tell me what you think it says.....who are God’s “people”? These will inherit the blessings of the kingdom. What is “new Jerusalem” and how will God be “with” them?

What are your thoughts?

 

[Wrangler]

LOL....Nope ....there is nothing in the Bible that does not require a thorough and exhaustive investigation …What are your thoughts?

Brevity is the soul of wit and there is little in the Bible to support the necessity of tedious dissertations on every point.

God said ‘Let there be light’ and there was light. Jesus spoke even more concisely. ‘Follow me’ and people followed.

I think you are confusing what you prefer (thorough and exhaustive investigation) with what is required. And you are losing people (failing to be all things to all people so some may be saved) by putting such academic obstacles in the way. Consider below, not with respect to food, but thorough investigations.


21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble. 22 You may believe there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right.
Romans 14:21-22

 

[RLT63]

Unitarians disagreeing. Interesting

 

[Matthias]

Unitarians disagreeing. Interesting

Trinitarians disagreeing. More imteresting.

 

[Matthias]

Do you realize how nonsensical this sounds? Of course you are trying to justify your false beliefs but any honest person (even one who is not a Christian) will have to admit that in Colossians Jesus is presented as (1) the Creator and (2) the one in whom ALL the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily. In plain English "Jesus is God".

Since the Bible already presents God the Father throughout the New Testament, and now presents God the Son as the Creator, we already have two persons within the Godhead. While the Holy Spirit is not mention in this context, there is no doubt that the Christians in the apostolic churches knew that Jesus had said that the Holy Spirit is also God. So that makes THREE divine persons. Which equates to the Trinity.

What this means for anti-Trinitarians is that every time they say something, they simply did their holes a little deeper.

“It is impossible to document what we now call orthodoxy in the first two centuries of Christianity; heresy often appears more prominently, so much so that orthodoxy looks like a reaction to it. But we can document orthodoxy for all the centuries since then - in other words, for close to seventeen centuries of the church’s existence.“

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies, p. 5)

Church history makes JAT look bad.

 

[RLT63]

Trinitarians disagreeing. More imteresting.

How many denominations are there? We've been disagreeing since Luther broke away from Catholicism. There aren't as many Unitarians though.

 

[Wrangler]

Unitarians disagreeing. Interesting

Not about doctrine but the Art of Persuasion.

Also, Aunty Jane is a JW. I am a Biblical unitarian. I’m not sure she goes by the term unitarian.

 

[Matthias]

How many denominations are there? We've been disagreeing since Luther broke away from Catholicism.

Disagreeing about the doctrine of the Trinity among you is a pretty recent phenomena. That’s what Dr. Brown was combating.

There aren't as many Unitarians though.

If trinitarians of Reformation times had their way, there wouldn’t be any unitarians.

Historically, unitarians have broken down into three camps from early on in the Church. Several centuries before trinitarianism came along in the Church.

 

[RLT63]

Not about doctrine but the Art of Persuasion.

Also, Aunty Jane is a JW. I am a Biblical unitarian. I’m not sure she goes by the term unitarian.

You agree on doctrine?

 

[Matthias]

You agree on doctrine?

While we wait for his response …

“Unitarianism as a theological movement began much earlier in history; indeed it antedated Trinitarianism by many decades. Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian. The road from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”

(”Unitarianism,” Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Vol. 27, p. 294L)

 

[RLT63]

Disagreeing about the doctrine of the Trinity among you is a pretty recent phenomena. That’s what Dr. Brown was combating.



If trinitarians of Reformation times had their way, there wouldn’t be any unitarians.

Historically, unitarians have broken down into three camps from early on in the Church. Several centuries before trinitarianism came along in the Church.

If the early Catholic Church had their way there wouldn't be any Protestants

 

[Wrangler]

You agree on doctrine?

Well, on THE point of who God is and who is not God.

 

[Matthias]

If the early Catholic Church had their way there wouldn't be any Protestants

We can write that down and take it to the bank. Solid. Grounded in Church history.

 

[RLT63]

While we wait for his response …

“Unitarianism as a theological movement began much earlier in history; indeed it antedated Trinitarianism by many decades. Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian. The road from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”

(”Unitarianism,” Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Vol. 27, p. 294L)

I had a close friend who was a JW when I was young. I could visit her at home and go to the Kingdom Hall with her but I couldn't date her unless I became a JW. So I learned a little about what she believed during that time. She called it "the truth ".

 

[Wrangler]

If the early Catholic Church had their way there wouldn't be any Protestants

What denomination are you?

 

[RLT63]

What denomination are you?

I'm non denominational. I'm not a member of the Church I go to now.

 

[Matthias]

I had a close friend who was a JW when I was young. I could visit her at home and go to the Kingdom Hall with her but I couldn't date her unless I became a JW. So I learned a little about what she believed during that time. She called it "the truth ".

My best friend in Junior High School was a JW. I had no interest in dating him, but he had an attractive sister that I would have if I could have. I learned a lot from them.

All of my trinitarian friends call what that they believe “the truth”. I’ve learned a lot from them.

What I’ve come to see over time is that there is a measure of truth in what JWs and in what trinitarians believe.

 

[RLT63]

My best friend in Junior High School was a JW. I had no interest in dating him, but he had an attractive sister that I would have if I could have. I learned a lot from them.

All of my trinitarian friends call what that they believe “the truth”. I’ve learned a lot from them.

What I’ve come to see over time is that there is a measure of truth in what JWs and in what trinitarians believe.

Yes but she wasn't just saying what she believed was true. "The Truth " pertained to JW doctrine. I heard that term a lot.

 

[Matthias]

“Unitarianism as a theological movement began much earlier in history; indeed it antedated Trinitarianism by many decades. Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian. The road from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”

(”Unitarianism,” Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Vol. 27, p. 294L)

History.

Is this a death blow to trinitarianism?

No.

 

[Matthias]

Yes but she wasn't just saying what she believed was true. "The Truth " pertained to JW doctrine. I heard that term a lot.

So did I. To say that their confidence level was high would be an understatement.

I’ve heard the same from trinitarians. Have you?