WHO ARE THE TWO WITNESSES IN REVELATION ?

[PinSeeker]

Comprehend Hebrew 10:19-21 by understanding that we can now approach God, but only through Jesus, of Whom God indwells.
Therefore, the Father dwells in us indirectly, through the Veil of Jesus Himself, and in no other way.

If the Spirit of Jesus is not within us, we are assured neither is the Spirit of the Father!! Together, they are Holy Spirit. You can't have one without the other:)
Heb. 10
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh [Immortal flesh];
[21] And having [now] an high priest over the house of God;

As it pertains to the symbolism of the temple veil being torn in two, it is speaking about the new and living way to enter into God the Father's Presence, of whom dwells WITHIN the Spiritual, Immortal Flesh of Jesus, the only Mediator between man and God the Father.

A third "add on" to the Godhead of Two, is not a separate, additional Spirit of God the Father and/or the Son, but rather it is a goal of function by the Two, being One IN SPIRIT.
Their Oneness in Spirit is 100% visible in Romans 8:8-11, which again is saying: you can't have One without the Other.

As I have said on several occasions now, Earburner, you are a very... interesting... person, with interesting... thoughts. :) I don't completely disagree with you, but there are a few... quite significant :) ... differences. Neither the Father nor the Son are the Holy Spirit ~ or "holy spirit," as if it is only some George Lucas kind of "force") ~ but the Father and the Son are both one with Holy Spirit, and He with They. Understanding differently from that is not Biblical. Jesus, in both John 14 and John 15, clearly refers to the Holy Spirit in the third person, not the first, and very much separate from the Father and Himself.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

We see in Genesis 1:2 the distinctness in Person of the Holy Spirit, Who was present with the Father at creation, as He was hovering over the face of the waters. And in view of John 1:2-3 ~ "He was in the beginning with God... (a)ll things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made" ~ So was the Son. So... One + One + One = ONE. :)

That Personage of Spirit hovering over the face of the waters, was the Eternal Son of God, long before he was made to be flesh. Proverbs 8:22-31.

And then in the Garden, Jesus is seen as Co-creator, and also being symbolized as the Tree of Life.
One + One = ONE.

 

[Earburner]

Understanding differently from that is not Biblical.

Yes, that is exactly what I said that "pharisaical church-ianity" says!
I expect no deviation from the lie that the "tares" hatched, centuries ago.

 

[Earburner]

Neither the Father nor the Son are the Holy Spirit ~ or "holy spirit," as if it is only some George Lucas kind of "force") ~ but the Father and the Son are both one with Holy Spirit, and He with They.

PinSeeker wrote:
"but the Father and the Son are both one with Holy Spirit, and He with They."

Oops!
You were doing just fine there for a brief second, and then came the overwhelming persuasion of the "tares" input, for you to "add-on" an additional person to God.
Now to me, THAT'S not biblical:)

 

[PinSeeker]

That Personage of Spirit hovering over the face of the waters, was the Eternal Son of God, long before he was made to be flesh. Proverbs 8:22-31.

Absolutely not. The Son is not clearly seen in Genesis 1, but we know from John 1 ~ and Hebrews 1; see below ~ that He was most certainly there. But it doesn't take long for Moses to record the Father's words about Him, namely in Genesis 3, where God says to the serpent:

"He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."
[Genesis 3:15]​

Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not clearly seen in John 1, but it doesn't take long for Jesus, namely in John 3, to speak of Him:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
[John 3:5-8]​

And then in the Garden, Jesus is seen as Co-creator, and also being symbolized as the Tree of Life.

I'm not in total disagreement with what you say here, but the tree of life in the midst of the garden (Genesis 2) is the type/shadow of Christ in the early chapters of Genesis. Thus begins the whole pattern of Jesus being revealed in types and shadows throughout the Old Testament in various ways, which is exactly how the writer of Hebrews opens his letter, saying:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
[Hebrews 1:1-2]​

One + One = ONE.

One + One + One = ONE. This is spiritual math. :)

Yes, that is exactly what I said that "pharisaical church-ianity" says!

Nah, that's what God says. :) Thus saith the Lord.

I expect no deviation from the lie that the "tares" hatched, centuries ago.

Well, I agree that there is no shadow of change with God, as the great hymn Great Is Thy Faithfulness goes. And yes, as Isaiah writes, and Peter, several centuries later, cites:

"A voice says, 'Cry!' And I said, “What shall I cry?' All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever."
[Isaiah 40:6-8]
[1 Peter 1:24-25]​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker wrote: "but the Father and the Son are both one with Holy Spirit, and He with They."​

Oops! You were doing just fine there for a brief second, and then came the overwhelming persuasion of the "tares" input, for you to "add-on" an additional person to God. Now to me, THAT'S not biblical:)

Right, not biblical to think otherwise from what I said. Perhaps you're actually coming around. :) But you know, these things are spiritually discerned, as Paul writes to the Corinthians (and to us):

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
[1 Corinthians 2:14]​

Grace and peace to you

 

[Earburner]

Jesus, in both John 14 and John 15, clearly refers to the Holy Spirit in the third person, not the first, and very much separate from the Father and Himself.

You are saying that a "third person" is so, as the "tares" believe.
You are vaguely referencing scripture, as the "tares" often do.
And you are convinced by their "wisdom of men", that a "third person" of God is a reality.
BUT, you are still not able to reveal/show it to be scriptural and a spiritual truth.

Mind you, I don't fault you for that, but I do expect that you not defend it, and that you weigh yourself according to 1 Corinthians 2:5.

I am not closing this very open discussion, but if it does, I just wanted to say:
Thank you PinSeeker for this excellent discussion.
May God bless you in your seeking after Jesus, who is Himself the Spirit of truth. John 14:6.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are saying that a "third person" is so, as the "tares" believe.

Well, I say, you are saying that there is no third Person in the triune Godhead, which is... well what non-trinitarians suppose. But it does seem that you believe in at least a duality, so you might get there yet.

You are vaguely referencing scripture...

I am being very specific.

And you are convinced by their "wisdom of men"...

It's the Spirit Who convicts, and brings to our remembrance all that Jesus said. And imparts wisdom to us, the wisdom of God, giving us discernment. All this I have been very clear in relating to you, Earburner, with specific Bible references.

BUT, you are still not able to reveal/show it to be scriptural and a spiritual truth.

I get that, Earburner, I really do. But I can't impart understanding to you, my friend. I can only point out what the Bible says, but it will remain a mystery to you unless... the Spirit opens the eyes of your heart, giving you discernment.

...weigh yourself according to 1 Corinthians 2:5.

I do that every single day, Earburner. Every. Single. Day.

I am not closing this very open discussion, but if it does, I just wanted to say: Thank you PinSeeker for this excellent discussion.

Sure. Thank you.

May God bless you in your seeking after Jesus...

I'm going to cut you off there, and say thank you, and the very same to you. :)

...who is Himself the Spirit of truth. John 14:6.

He's one with Him, yes. :) Jesus is not claiming to actually be the Holy Spirit in John 14:6. He goes on in John 14 to say that the Father will send another Helper in His name, Who will bring to our remembrance all that He, Jesus, has said.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

He's one with Him, yes. :) Jesus is not claiming to actually be the Holy Spirit in John 14:6. He goes on in John 14 to say that the Father will send another Helper in His name, Who will bring to our remembrance all that He, Jesus, has said.

I surely hope that you are not done by "throwing in the towel". We are far from done, as you will now find out.
So, do you really think that I'm having a problem understanding?? Well, let's see!

Jesus said "I am the......truth..."
Now really PinSeeker, when someone says "I am the truth", what should we think when that same person who is THE truth, points to a another/different authority and says that the different authority is the Spirit of truth? Especially when the One who IS the truth must go away. For IF the One who IS the truth, doesn't go away, then the Spirit of truth CANNOT come.
Why not???
Does the Spirit of truth, who is "unobservable", have another/different truth than the One who is The Truth, and is "observable"?
Or is it that the one who is "unobservable" actually is the same person who is "observable", but now is in a different form?

Take your time sorting that out, because when you do, you will see/perceive the correct answer, and then right next to it is a GREATER TRUTH that will show up, that is in plain sight, but is unknown to "church-ianity".

Here is the verse to ponder for answering the question:
Luke.17[20] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation.

"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than One Truth."- Earburner

 

[Earburner]

Earburner wrote:
"May God bless you in your seeking after Jesus, who is Himself the Spirit of truth. John 14:6."

PinSeeker replied:
"May God bless you in your seeking after Jesus..."
I'm going to cut you off there, and say thank you, and the very same to you.

Earburner's reply:
Wow! That really freaks you out, to think that "the Spirit of Truth" is actually Jesus in His Spirit form, with the Father within Him.

Well, you are in for another shock, which is in connection to the previous post I had just recently written:
Luke 17[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Now compare that with Luke 17:20 and John 14:18.
(The KJV uses the word "comfortless" in John 14:18).

 

[Earburner]

What did you notice about the kingdom of God?
Not where is it or when is it, but rather who is it?
I'll give you one guess, here are two clues:
Matthew 21:43, 1 Peter 2:9

 

[Earburner]

Well, I say, you are saying that there is no third Person in the triune Godhead, which is... well what non-trinitarians suppose. But it does seem that you believe in at least a duality, so you might get there yet.

It's the Spirit Who convicts, and brings to our remembrance all that Jesus said. And imparts wisdom to us, the wisdom of God, giving us discernment. All this I have been very clear in relating to you, Earburner, with specific Bible references.

Grace and peace to you.

Yes, their co-existence of God the Father and God the Son, being Holy Spirit together, is strictly that of a duality. Together, from eternity past, they together have always been One. There was not and has never been any addition to the Godhead of Two.

The confusion to think that there was an addition made, is due to the separation that occurred, when the Father had forsaken His Son, while He was on the cross, bearing the sin of the world.

One must grasp and understand that neither one of the Godhead of Two, of all eternity, had ever experienced a separation from the other. That is why Jesus was in such agony and stress in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44). In His person, He didn't know what to expect of physical death, and most of all, the fear of being separated from His Father, of which from eternity past, had never been.
John 17:1-26, Luke 22:41-44. Specifically John 17[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Now, when you read the above scriptures, you will not find anything of an additional third spirit of the Godhead. Why?
It has always been only the Father and the Son, and that is it. But, now that there was going to be a literal separation between the Two, by Jesus' mortal death, by faith Jesus KNEW that there was going to be a rejoining together (a new marriage) IN HIS RESURRECTION into a literal, brand new creation of a Being, that was no longer a soul, being of flesh and blood only, but NOW a New Creature of Holy Spirit, DWELLING in a physical body of flesh and bone, WITHOUT blood.

Jesus has the capability to be fully Holy Spirit, and then "in the twinkling of an eye", to become physical at will. We can see that when he came to the disciples in the upper room in His resurrected body, and also when he "vanished" in Luke 24:30-31

Now, when has there ever been a lawful marriage of three people as one???
There hasn't been, EXCEPT when a person becomes born again of God the Father and God the Son!!
Is that blasphemy or heresy?
Well, you be the judge through John 17:18-23, and I repeat, specifically in verse [23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made PERFECT in ONE;
If one must see a Trinity, THERE IT IS, but it is not what the "tares" are saying it is.

For you at the moment, the following might be hard to digest.
1 John 5[8] And there are three that bear witness IN earth**, the spirit [The Father IN the Son], and the water, and the blood [our mortal selves]: and these three agree in one. **2 Corinthians 4:7

 

[PinSeeker]

Now really PinSeeker...

"Really." Yes, that's the issue. You're "reality." :) And what you do with the clear language of the Bible... :)

Take your time sorting that out...

I think I've spent quite enough time very patiently listening to your... thoughts... and your... opinions. :)

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

 

[Earburner]

Before you forsake me, please read my edited last post above.
Thanks, Earburner

 

[Earburner]

"Really." Yes, that's the issue. You're "reality." :) And what you do with the clear language of the Bible... :)

I interpret it through the mind of Christ, who is within me, with the Father in Him.
That IS scriptural, correct? I know that it is.:)

 

[PinSeeker]

Before you forsake me...

I'm not foresaking you, Earburner. But I am ~ and I've been very clear in doing so ~ forsaking your binitarian understanding of the triune Jehovah. :) Binitarianism is a theology essentially held only by some Seventh Day Church of God groups. I don't know if you are in one of those groups or not, but you certainly ~ and unfortunately ~ identify with them.

...please read my edited last post.

I... did. :) And so... I've read enough, Earburner. Binitarianism is one result among many produced from... well, just a terrible misreading of Scripture. And again, I'm perfectly fine with you labeling that as my opinion.

I interpret it through the mind of Christ, who is within me, with the Father in Him. That IS scriptural, correct?

Ah ~ yes and no. :) As Paul says in Ephesians 2, we have been raised with Christ, and are currently seated with Christ in the heavenly places. But how you understand what Paul is saying there might also be a bit... different. :) We are, for now, still here on earth, right? So, What you say here is at least in a sense contrary to what Paul says there. Thus... yes and no. There is, for us still living, a now-and-not-yet aspect of the Gospel. So, for the time being, for us in this world, we have the Holy Spirit to bring to our remembrance all that Christ said while he was here. :)

I know that it is.:)

I think, Earburner, you should re-think what you "know..." :)

Yes, ironically, that's what you've been saying to me. So be it. :) Again:

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Ah ~ yes and no. :) As Paul says in Ephesians 2, we have been raised with Christ, and are currently seated with Christ in the heavenly places. But how you understand what Paul is saying there might also be a bit... different. :) We are, for now, still here on earth, right? So, What you say here is at least in a sense contrary to what Paul says there. Thus... yes and no. There is, for us still living, a now-and-not-yet aspect of the Gospel. So, for the time being, for us in this world, we have the Holy Spirit to bring to our remembrance all that Christ said while he was here. :)

So, you think that I'm not knowledgeable of what you are saying?
One cannot have truth revealed to them, until they discover that they have been believing error.

Many Christians are still following the earthly Christ, while few are following the Heavenly Christ.
2 Corinthians 5[15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Earburner]

I'm not foresaking you, Earburner. But I am ~ and I've been very clear in doing so ~ forsaking your binitarian understanding of the triune Jehovah. :) Binitarianism is a theology essentially held only by some Seventh Day Church of God groups. I don't know if you are in one of those groups or not, but you certainly ~ and unfortunately ~ identify with them.

I am not SDA or anything of any denomination, though I have attended quite a number of denominations, and had membership in two, Baptist and Methodist.

I am a "Born Again Christian" who was called by the Lord in 1975 through a vision with scripture, and have been given the Gift of prophecy (for interpretation), as a "free man in the Lord".
Iows, I am not a servant in bondage to any denominational doctrine.
KJV 1 Corinthians 7:22, 1 Corinthians ch. 13.

If I were to classify my belief according to the realm of "church-ianity", I would be considered as a progressive Amillennialist-Hybrid.

"All the churches have some of His truth, but none of the churches have all of His truth"- Earburner

EDIT: Btw, I used the word "forsaken", to make a reference of when for a brief time (3 days), God the Father and God the Son were separated from each other, until Jesus was Resurrected into a New Creature, being the Firstborn from the dead, of which was the beginning of God's New Creation of "born again" Saints. Colossians 1:18, Romans 8:29.

Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, is none of His, and therefore IS A "TARE".

 

[PinSeeker]

So, you think that I'm not knowledgeable of what you are saying?

No, that's not what I think about you. But mere knowledge of things is not necessarily a good thing.

One cannot have truth revealed to them, until they discover that they have been believing error.

I think what you say here, Earburner, is backwards. What I say next regarding the 2 Corinthians 5 passage you cited is very much along those lines. But I don't think there need be any argument about this.

Many Christians are still following the earthly Christ, while few are following the Heavenly Christ.
2 Corinthians 5[15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ugh. The King James Version, because of it's antiquated language, is more difficult to understand in certain places in the Bible. I much prefer the English Standard Version, which puts it this way:

"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." [2 Corinthians 5:14-17]​

What Paul is saying here, Earburner ~ and this applies to all before their conversion ~ is that he (and we all), before his (our conversion), believed Christ to be a false messiah. thus, we all once regarded Him according to the flesh, a sinful man no different than any of the rest of us. But we now know this not to be the case, because we have been newly created, born again of the Spirit and thus redeemed and now living for Christ... by living for others,

I am not SDA or anything of any denomination, though I have attended quite a number of denominations, and had membership in two, Baptist and Methodist.

Ah yes, the non-denominational denomination. :) Which essentially Baptist... :) I gotcha... :) But you are a binitarian, apparently, and that's... not good. But we can agree to disagree on that.

I am a "Born Again Christian" who was called by the Lord in 1975...

And born again of the Spirit. Praise God!

...through a vision with scripture, and have been given the Gift of prophecy (for interpretation), as a "free man in the Lord".

Well now that sounds kind of Pentecostal... :)

...I am not a servant in bondage to any denominational doctrine.

Okay. But, well, like I said above... :)

If I were to classify my belief according to the realm of "church-ianity", I would be considered as a progressive Amillennialist-Hybrid.

Ugh. I don't even want to dig into that... :) I do see the hybrid thing, though; you seem... sort of... poly-hybrid in your beliefs, if that makes sense... :) It does sound like we would agree at least somewhat on some things, though, like the nature of the millennium of Revelation 20. Maybe there's even a hint of Reformed theology in you... :) There are reformed baptists out there... :)

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

 

[Earburner]

1. No, that's not what I think about you. But mere knowledge of things is not necessarily a good thing.
2. I think what you say here, Earburner, is backwards. What I say next regarding the 2 Corinthians 5 passage you cited is very much along those lines. But I don't think there need be any argument about this.
3. Ugh. The King James Version, because of it's antiquated language, is more difficult to understand in certain places in the Bible. I much prefer the English Standard Version, which puts it this way:

"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." [2 Corinthians 5:14-17]​

What Paul is saying here, Earburner ~ and this applies to all before their conversion ~ is that he (and we all), before his (our conversion), believed Christ to be a false messiah. thus, we all once regarded Him according to the flesh, a sinful man no different than any of the rest of us. But we now know this not to be the case, because we have been newly created, born again of the Spirit and thus redeemed and now living for Christ... by living for others,
4. Ah yes, the non-denominational denomination. :) Which essentially Baptist... :) I gotcha... :) But you are a binitarian, apparently, and that's... not good. But we can agree to disagree on that.
5. And born again of the Spirit. Praise God!
6. Well now that sounds kind of Pentecostal... :)
Okay. But, well, like I said above... :)
7. Ugh. I don't even want to dig into that... :) I do see the hybrid thing, though; you seem... sort of... poly-hybrid in your beliefs, if that makes sense... :) It does sound like we would agree at least somewhat on some things, though, like the nature of the millennium of Revelation 20. Maybe there's even a hint of Reformed theology in you... :) There are reformed baptists out there... :)

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

1. Agreed, we have nothing, if we don't have charity.
But that was not what I was pointing to. I was pointing to the knowledge of Christ.
2. Here is a simple analogy of what I said:
We are all as a glass filled to the brim with dirty water (false teachings). The clear water of Christ's teachings, displaces the dirty water, but only at the rate we are willing to let the false teachings go.
If we refuse to let a false teaching go, we are not allowing the truth of Christ to displace it, therefore the false teaching remains in us, continuing to contaminate and corrupt the whole glass of water.
3. Most professing Christians are content to follow church-ianity's religious "walk through" and display of Jesus' life in the flesh, and they are satisfied with that. However, if they would be following the mind of the resurrected Chist, they would realize that KJV (only) Daniel 9:24 was the prophetic utterance of the Six works of God, that were given to Christ to "finish", by which KJV (ONLY) Daniel 9:27 revealed how the completion of them was going to be delivered to believers on Pentecost (that which was determined to be finished, and was finished).
Even the "Pentecostals" don't comprehend Pentecost by "His divine nature", when Jesus said that "It is finished."
4. I am not a Baptist or of any one denomination!!
God's truth is spread out among them all. No single denomination has all of God's truth. I thought that I had made that clear. But then again, if you are of a single denomination, you can't appreciate what I said, nor of that which I expound upon.
5. Amen!! :)
6. 1 Corinthians 1:12
7. I will sound like Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, Methodist, SDA and even JW. You know why, ...."they all only have some of His truth".