WHO ARE THE TWO WITNESSES IN REVELATION ?

[MatthewG]

Are there any verses in the Bible that JW's don't TWIST to change what God said?

Hello Jack,

There are many studious students be it in the Mormon, or Jehovah witness constructs. When it comes to Jehovah witness, and Mormon, they tend to be taught what to believe and most follow along. There can be people who do actually find christ in these groups I believe personally. God can work in and through people but not only people, by the spirit also, even dreams possibly. At one point in time there was an interested I had in trying to attack, but then realized that doesn't work, gotta do things in love, and by and through the spirit.

There is a lot of things strange and alien to Christians, in which those two groups may teach, on even claiming to be the true church. Two things that stand out to me from either one of them is One has 12 apostles (Mormons), and the other teach things about Jesus being arch-angel Michael (There is a JW book somewhere in this house, along with a Mormon (New Testament) bible by I believe Jospeh Smith I guess? Lol, not super ancient but not to long ago history.

God is good, there are people who may be in those groups but there are those also who are trying to seek and find truth and hopefully Jesus Christ is the one whom moves into their heart and changes their life by and through learning about the things the Bible actually teaches and says.

Thank you for a moment of your time, and insights please share.

 

[face2face]

Actually, the words of the book of Revelation are the written Eternal thoughts of God, who thinks in the past, present and the future, all at the SAME time.
Isaiah 55:8-9
Our lowly, fleshly minds cannot understand him on his level, hence the need for "the mind of Christ" to be within us, aka His Holy Spirit.
John 16:13

It's odd isn't when a believer ignores the very first verse of the book. Revelation 1:1

 

[Earburner]

Ah... you know, I agree with what you say here, Earburner, at least in part, but not fully. I think what you are saying is not untrue, at least to a certain extent, but falls short of the whole truth. Surely you will acknowledge what Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, that the Father is the First Comforter:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, Who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God."

Yes, you are correct. Thank you for the correction!
GOD the Father is the first Comforter. However, that only corrects what I had erroneously said about Jesus as the first comforter. I will edit my previous post with your suggested corrections.

Let's not forget that the Father spoke the words and did the works through Jesus, and not that of Jesus by himself.
Jesus was the visible vehicle of and for God the Father, so that we all may come to know Him through Jesus, by faith.
The remainder of what I said stands firm.

 

[Earburner]

It's odd isn't when a believer ignores the very first verse of the book. Revelation 1:1

He may show it to you, and you may read it, but without the mind of Christ within you, doing the interpreting, you will have nothing except what your "grey matter" shall imagine it to be.
Again, John 16:13, John 15:5.

 

[face2face]

He may show it to you, and you may read it, but without the mind of Christ within you, doing the interpreting, you will have nothing except what your "grey matter" shall imagine it to be.
Again, John 16:13, John 15:5.

"Things which shortly must come to pass"...unfolding events!

 

[face2face]

So I'll let you in on a secret.

Revelation 1:1 provides a key to its interpretation. It shows that the correct interpretation is the Historic one, which treats the Apocalypse as a prophetic plan of unfolding history, the fulfillment of which was about to commence, to come to pass, shortly after it was given to the Apostle John. The visions and revelations cover history from the day of the Apostle to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's encouragement was known only to those who understood the mind of God and how He works in the Kingdoms of men. Most Christians are lost to its meaning.

F2F

 

[Earburner]

"Things which shortly must come to pass"...unfolding events!

Yes, ever since 96AD, and however long men continue to repent towards Him, through faith in Jesus, God's Grace will still be in the world.

So, for one to think that "things which shortly must come to pass" from 96AD, had all passed before 200AD, that would be a gross error for interpretation.
But now, here we are in the year 2022, and people are still repenting towards God through Jesus.
I don't think even the Apostles could have imagined how long God's Grace has been in the world.

However, having said that, there is only ONE event that will bring an end to people repenting towards
God, and that is the MoB. And though many, many people have come and gone preaching about it, we are now about to be in it, within a very short amount of time. It's been a long time coming, but I think the "prince of this world" is now finally able to put his global plan of action in place.
It will be BY satan's hand that the "sheep will be separated from the goats". Those who are "sealed" by God, being opposed to those who are "marked" by satan.

 

[face2face]

Yes, ever since 96AD, and however long men continue to repent towards Him, through faith in Jesus, God's Grace will still be in the world.

So, for one to think that "things which shortly must come to pass" from 96AD, had all passed before 200AD, that would be a gross error for interpretation.

This is a common mistake because you misinterpret the urgency of the matters before you. If all of the Revelation was to be fulfilled say in the 7 church period what profit would it hold for the true Christians over the past 2000 years?

To each period of time the prophecies would shortly come to pass depending on where you are situated within the book. For instance we are at present in Revelation 16 and in fact this chapter is our Olivet Prophecy though again many do not know it's meaning. These things are hidden for a reason that only a minority know and understand.

I've given you a key in these posts...it's up to you to use it.

F2F

 

[Earburner]

Ah... you know, I agree with what you say here, Earburner, at least in part, but not fully. I think what you are saying is not untrue, at least to a certain extent, but falls short of the whole truth. Surely you will acknowledge what Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, that the Father is the First Comforter:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, Who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God."​

Read on...


Yes.

Together, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct Comforters, the Father being the First, the Son, Who was sent by and from the Father, being the second, and the Holy Spirit, Who was sent by and from the Father in the Son's name, being the third. And together, they are each in both of the others and together the one God of all comfort. And this is what Paul is saying in that 2 Corinthians 1 passage cited above:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, Who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort. For we do not want you to be unaware, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead. He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and He will deliver us. On Him we have set our hope that He will deliver us again. You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many." (2 Corinthians 1:3-11)​

In this passage, Paul is clearly talking about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all working in concert over, for, and in us in their specific roles, all Comforters and the one God of all comfort.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

Sorry there PinSeeker, but I still see only TWO Personages of the Godhead being literally spoken of in those scriptures. Therefore from that evidence, it is vividly apparent to me that Jesus being now together with the Father, are Holy Spirit together as One, of which they always were, in eternity past. John 17:5.

 

[Earburner]

This is a common mistake because you misinterpret the urgency of the matters before you. If all of the Revelation was to be fulfilled say in the 7 church period what profit would it hold for the true Christians over the past 2000 years?

I think that you misunderstood what I said.
If you look at the spiritual value of Revelation, through the mind of Christ within you, you will definitively perceive God speaking in the past, present and future, all at the SAME time. That is a feat that our fleshly minds CANNOT DO!
However, by utilizing the mind of Christ within us, he will reveal it to you.
Studying it by our own mental fortitude, through the wisdom of men, will deliver only fleshly minded imaginings.

For example: as of yet, there has never been a manifestation of the ten horns on the sea beast. Though ten horns have been prophesied of Daniel ever since 500+/-BC., they are only manifested (appointed) for "one hour", as a last ditch effort, to rush together in a vain effort to "Save the earth" (satan's only home), from the Glorious "invasion" (by their perception) of Christ and His Mighty angels.
Rev.17[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
I mean, even the beast itself is not yet fully manifested in the world, though we do know thus far, that it will arise out of Europe.

What we do know:
1.The ten Horned Beast will arise out of Europe. Personally, I believe it's in the making right now as the "World Economic Forum" in Davos Switzerland.

2. The false prophet is the two Horned beast, a young powerful nation that has called all the people of the world to make an image of the beast, which began in 1945, whose headquarters is in Geneva and in New York.

3.The ten horns (to be appointed by the beast), will burn the fallen women, who is spiritually called Babylon the Great, the MOTHER of harlots, being what is biblically known as that "Great city".
> Did you know that there are only two "mothers" in the prophetic NT scriptures, and both go by the same name, but have different locations? Galatians 4:22-31.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, you are correct.

I know.

I will edit my previous post with your suggested corrections.

Well, there were no "suggestions." I would stop far short of calling them commands, though. But I very much appreciate the humility, Earburner; thank you for that.

Jesus was the visible vehicle of and for God the Father, so that we all may come to know Him through Jesus, by faith.

Well, okay, but also our model in all things for loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and for loving our neighbors as ourselves ~ as Paul says to the Philippians, to look not only to our own interests, but also to the interests of others, even counting them as far more important than ourselves. Generally speaking, this is how we glorify God.

Sorry there PinSeeker...

No apologies necessary.

...I still see only TWO Personages of the Godhead being literally spoken of in those scriptures.

Well, that's... okay.

Therefore from that evidence...

Right, that's the problem. The evidence is not what you seem to think. But you will say that right back to me, and that's... okay... with me. I would beseech you, though, to hear what Jesus says in Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, and Luke 12:10.

...it is vividly apparent to me that Jesus being now together with the Father, are Holy Spirit together as One, of which they always were, in eternity past. John 17:5.

Well, Jesus possessed the same glory as and the same glory with the Father from all eternity, and always will. Sure. And the Holy Spirit along with them. And yes, Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father, which is to say in the same power and glory of the Father. And spiritually, we are seated in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. But we are not actually there... yet. For this reason, the Holy Spirit is active in each one of us as Christians, acting according to the will of the Father (as Jesus did) and helping us by bringing to our remembrance all Jesus said during His time on earth, just as Jesus said in John 14. So again, They are all, together, our one Help ~ our help in ages past, our hope for years to come, our shelter from the stormy blast, and our eternal home, as the hymn "Oh God Our Help in Ages Past" goes), and each individually our Helpers, first, second, and third. Again, regarding the Holy Spirit, I would point you back to the three passages cited above, Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, and Luke 12:10, in addition to John 14.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Jack]

Hello Jack,

There are many studious students be it in the Mormon, or Jehovah witness constructs. When it comes to Jehovah witness, and Mormon, they tend to be taught what to believe and most follow along. There can be people who do actually find christ in these groups I believe personally. God can work in and through people but not only people, by the spirit also, even dreams possibly. At one point in time there was an interested I had in trying to attack, but then realized that doesn't work, gotta do things in love, and by and through the spirit.

There is a lot of things strange and alien to Christians, in which those two groups may teach, on even claiming to be the true church. Two things that stand out to me from either one of them is One has 12 apostles (Mormons), and the other teach things about Jesus being arch-angel Michael (There is a JW book somewhere in this house, along with a Mormon (New Testament) bible by I believe Jospeh Smith I guess? Lol, not super ancient but not to long ago history.

God is good, there are people who may be in those groups but there are those also who are trying to seek and find truth and hopefully Jesus Christ is the one whom moves into their heart and changes their life by and through learning about the things the Bible actually teaches and says.

Thank you for a moment of your time, and insights please share.

God will sort it all out. lol
What a MESS called "Christianity"!

 

[Earburner]

Well, Jesus possessed the same glory as and the same glory with the Father from all eternity, and always will. Sure. And the Holy Spirit along with them. And yes, Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father, which is to say in the same power and glory of the Father.

Well, I'm not going to get into any head butting here, but something isn't quite "seated" correctly in church-ianity's seating arrangement.
Yes, it is true that Jesus is standing at the right hand of the Father. Even Stephen, during his martyrdom (36 AD), was given a vision of that fact. Acts 6:55-56.
And so, my stance about who the Holy Spirit really is, continues. Whether Jesus is sitting or even standing at the right hand of God, why was Jesus not in Heaven, at the right hand of God, when He himself met with Paul on earth, while Paul was on the road to Damascus? Acts 8:1-4. This is not a question, as if I don't have understanding about it, but rather it's a question about who it is that is REALLY AMONG US, in a moment's notice. I think we both know that is so, just as He did the same in Luke 24:13-15, 30-31, which is exactly what he said he would do:
".....I will come to you"....John 14:18
"....I will manifest myself to him....John 14:21
".....no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Luke 10:22
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear MY voice, and open the door, I will COME INTO him..... Revelation 3:20

 

[Earburner]

Right, that's the problem. The evidence is not what you seem to think. But you will say that right back to me, and that's... okay... with me. I would beseech you, though, to hear what Jesus says in Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, and Luke 12:10.

Matthew: meaning BOTH God the Father and God the Son together, ARE TOGETHER as ONE, being Holy Spirit AS THEY ALWAYS have been in eternity past.

While Jesus was in the mortal flesh of His being, he was not in the fulness of HIS Eternal Spirit.
The words and the works through Jesus, were done BY God the Father. Therefore, in His mortality, Jesus temporarily laid aside the fulness of His Being in the Godhead.

In essence, Jesus did not lie by implying that he was not good, and that only the Father is good. He was about to bare the sins of the world, as God's Lamb of God for sacrifice.
Luke.18[19] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Matt.27[46] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

We KNOW WHY!
He became sin for us, and died the death of A MAN in our stead.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, as Paul says:

"...He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places..." Ephesians 1:20​

"If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God." Colossians 3:1​

What is meant here is that His work of redemption is completed.

In the case of Stephen in Acts 7, that He is standing is meant to indicated His approval of Stephen's actions and His welcoming Stephen into His presence in his passing/death from this life.

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The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each in each other, and thus One ~ the one true God. But they are distinct in personhood, and thus three in number of persons. So, One in three, three in One:

"Holy, holy, and holy is the Lord God Almighty" (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8).​

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You're really not that far away, Earburner. So close, yet so far away, as the musical duo (Darryl) Hall and (John) Oates put it...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

You're really not that far away, Earburner. So close, yet so far away, as the musical duo (Darryl) Hall and (John) Oates put it...

Grace and peace to you.

Although what I am saying may sound like I am splitting hairs, I am not.
Actually I have "pinned" it squarely through the positional concept of Jesus being the literal Mediator for God the Father and us. As I have said, God the Father needed His Son's sacrifice for Himself, just as much as we need Him, but for different reasons.

Spiritually, God the Father could not permanently dwell within any of us, without the "Veil" of His Son's immortal Spirit-flesh and bone body. Jesus himself is the very FIRST "New creature" of the Father's new creation, with the Father's very Ownself dwelling within Jesus, as the New creature, being both Spirit and Physical, with the capability to change at will.

In brief, the "Holy Spirit of God" the Father dwells within the New resurrected "Holy Spirit-body" of Jesus!
Therefore when we accept/invite the resurrected, New Living person of Jesus Christ into our life by faith, God the Father comes along within Jesus, because it is within Jesus that God the Father indwells.
Together, now being in Oneness AGAIN through Jesus, they both within us, are together Holy Spirit in us, as they have always been.

 

[Earburner]

Well, Jesus possessed the same glory as and the same glory with the Father from all eternity, and always will. Sure. And the Holy Spirit along with them. And yes, Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father, which is to say in the same power and glory of the Father.

Well, I'm not going to get into the head butting here, but something isn't quite "seated" correctly in church-ianity's seating arrangement.
Yes, it is true that Jesus is standing at the right hand of the Father. Even Stephen, during his martyrdom 36 AD, was given a vision of that fact. Acts 6:55-56.
And so, my stance about who the Holy Spirit really is continues.
Whether Jesus is sitting or standing at the right hand of God, why was Jesus not in Heaven, at the right hand of God, when He himself met with Paul on earth, while Paul was on the road to Damascus, AFTER the stoning of Stephen?
This is not a question, as if I don't have understanding about it, but rather it's a question about who it is that is REALLY AMONG US, in a moment's notice. I think we both know that is so, just as He did the same in Luke 24:13-15, 30-31, which is exactly what he said he would do:
".....I will come to you"....John 14:18
"....I will manifest myself to him....John 14:21
".....who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Luke 10:22

 

[Earburner]

God will sort it all out. lol
What a MESS called "Christianity"!

Actually, there is a stark difference between Christ-ianity and Church-ianity, aka the wheat and the tares/chaf, but only Born Again Christians are able to discern the difference.

Each are born from out of two different allegorical "mothers". One is of this earth, and the other is of heaven. Galatians 4:1-31, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:24-30, Revelation 17:5.

 

[Jack]

Actually, there is a stark difference between Christ-ianity and Church-ianity, aka the wheat and the tares/chaf, but only Born Again Christians are able to discern the difference.

Each are born from out of two different allegorical "mothers". One is of this earth, and the other is of heaven. Galatians 4:1-31, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:24-30, Revelation 17:5.

No doubt MANY who call themselves "Christians" are heading for the everlasting fire. ONLY God / Jesus knows who they are for sure.

 

[PinSeeker]

Actually I have "pinned" it squarely through the positional concept of Jesus being the literal Mediator for God the Father and us.

Okay, well, I would say "between"... Jesus is the mediatory between the Father and man. He is our mediator, mediating to the Father on our behalf. But okay.

Most of the rest of what you have said since my last post is very... "colorful." :

...something isn't quite "seated" correctly in church-ianity's seating arrangement. Yes, it is true that Jesus is standing at the right hand of the Father. Even Stephen, during his martyrdom 36 AD, was given a vision of that fact. Acts 6:55-56.

As I said above, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, as Paul says:

"...He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places..." Ephesians 1:20

"If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God." Colossians 3:1

What is meant here is not woodenly Jesus's body position, but that His work of redemption is completed... finished, as He said in His dying breath.

And the same sort of thing is true in the case of Stephen in Acts 7 ~ that He is standing is meant to indicate not woodenly His body position but His approval of Stephen's actions and His welcoming Stephen into His presence in his passing/death from this life.

And so, my stance about who the Holy Spirit really is continues.

Yes, that's unfortunate. I think you'll find out otherwise, hopefully sooner rather than later. As I said, Jesus clearly and irrefutably refers to the Holy Spirit as an entity wholly distinct from the Father and the Son in John 14.

And beyond that, God is everywhere at once, Earburner, all three Persons. As Christians, the Father is with us, Christ is with us, and the Holy Spirit is with us. Just to say someone is with us does not merely indicate proximity in person, but actually much more than that.

Grace and peace to you.