Did God Create Evil?

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Vengle

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Let me also remind the brethren that these concepts are states of being, as evil is a state of being. Aside from God, we are in a perpetual state of evil. Evil does exist, evil didn't spring up from nowhere. Satan was the first to sin, whatever the sin was does not matter. The bible with its plain reading of the text does a fine job explaining what happened.

Evil is not a state of being. It is a verb meaning "to spoil" as in "to break down".

That is a process which can be used for good or for bad. God uses it for good. Rebellious ones use it for bad.

States of being are nouns.
 

FHII

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I agree that God created all things - evil is not a thing. You have failed to address this point Vengle.

Here are a few more broken pieces of creation that God did not create:

Pollution

Death

Disease

Depression/Despair/hopelessness/separation/decay

Extinction

None of these concepts are things......they are a broken condition of creation caused by the Fall.

Aspen,

I created this thread to address comments you made. So while you address these to Vengle, I'd like to answer.

If evil is not a thing, what is it? I understand what you to say Augustine said evil was, and cannot comment because I have not read his work. I have read you quoting Augustine as saying Evil is the absense of Good, and thus is not a thing. Yet I also see you say that evil exists. How does something that is not a thing exist? There are some that say darkness is the absense of light (and God said he created darkness too!)

Now Gen 1 never says God created darkness, but he did devide Darkness from light. Thus, darkness is something too. And spiritually, Darkness and Evil are things.

You also give a list of things God didn't create. I believe that list includes: Pollution, death, disease, depression (and many other things related), and extinction. You sure about that?

Pollution and extinction I would have a hard time with, but I believe through the Bible I could indirectly show God either caused it or at the very least, willed it to happen. The rest are easy to show that God brought them, used them and invented them.

Nontheless... I'd like you to show me with the Bible (not Augustine, whom I have respect for) that evil is not a thing and God did not create it, when I have a verse that says he does, and several others that says God created ALL things.
 

Vengle

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H7451 -- ra` -- from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral)

H7489 -- ra`a` -- a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally)

It is not debatable that it is definitely a verb.

An action verb at that.

You guys are stubborn. :lol:

And that is the word taken from Isaiah 45:7

An action is no way no how a "thing". :lol:

The translator added the word "things" to that verse.

See what I highlighted up there on top?

Why is it that Strong's calls it a noun as in a state of being?

Because the state or quality of the action is that it spoils or breaks down and that is its invariable.

You must apply it as you do love which has the similar but exact opposite action and state of the quality of that action.

But evil has to be in the action or it cannot exist as a quality.

Just as love has to be in the action or it cannot exist as a quality.

So essentially unless they are an action neither love or evil are real. They cannot exist apart from action.
 

justaname

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I will repost
Mark 10:18
Luke 18:19
God is the only good.
We are created. As sinners we are condemned to death unless born again, a baptism of faith, through Jesus Christ.

Shalom
 

aspen

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Aspen,

I created this thread to address comments you made. So while you address these to Vengle, I'd like to answer.

If evil is not a thing, what is it? I understand what you to say Augustine said evil was, and cannot comment because I have not read his work. I have read you quoting Augustine as saying Evil is the absense of Good, and thus is not a thing. Yet I also see you say that evil exists. How does something that is not a thing exist? There are some that say darkness is the absense of light (and God said he created darkness too!)

Now Gen 1 never says God created darkness, but he did devide Darkness from light. Thus, darkness is something too. And spiritually, Darkness and Evil are things.

You also give a list of things God didn't create. I believe that list includes: Pollution, death, disease, depression (and many other things related), and extinction. You sure about that?

Pollution and extinction I would have a hard time with, but I believe through the Bible I could indirectly show God either caused it or at the very least, willed it to happen. The rest are easy to show that God brought them, used them and invented them.

Nontheless... I'd like you to show me with the Bible (not Augustine, whom I have respect for) that evil is not a thing and God did not create it, when I have a verse that says he does, and several others that says God created ALL things.

Remember I am Catholic so I rely on the Bible and Church Tradition as my authority. In the case of evil being a lack of good, I am relying on Church Tradition for an explicit description of the nature of evil - I would have to complete a full Bible study to support the idea from scripture explicitly. At this moment, I am really not interested in the subject enough to do so.

I believe that the ability to accurately describe the nature of evil has developed over time, sort of like the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the incarnation.

In addition, I think the concept of evil being a lack of good is self evident - just like cold is a lack of heat. Sure the conditions for a lack of heat exist, but you can only measure cold by measuring a lack of heat.

As far as depression and despair and all of the negative emotional states - would they exist if we had not fallen? They are a reaction to the evil condition of the world.

So, I realize that my post is probably not satisfying because I did not produce a verse that explicitly states the nature of evil - without conducting a full search, I cannot think of an appropriate verse off hand.
 

justaname

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If God is the only good, then what is all of creation? I'll give you a hint. We were not all created good, but created - - - - (it's four letters) :rolleyes:
Joy is a state of being, and it is God who sends the joy, as well as sends the calamities for our terror.
Now heres the big question!!!!!!
Who created it all? :blink:
Who is control of it all? :wacko:
Drum roll please ...... :huh:
It was/is/and will always be God :)
 

aspen

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Vengle,

I am not even sure what you are arguing anymore. Are you simply trying to split hairs or argue for the fun of it? I think word studies are the height of reductionism - language is dynamic - the same word can be used to mean many different things - God did not select one magic word to convey an isolated concept.

If God is the only good, then what is all of creation? I'll give you a hint. We were not all created good, but created - - - - (it's four letters) :rolleyes:
Joy is a state of being, and it is God who sends the joy, as well as sends the calamities for our terror.
Now heres the big question!!!!!!
Who created it all? :blink:
Who is control of it all? :wacko:
Drum roll please ...... :huh:
It was/is/and will always be God :)

Wow......as we supposed to fall down and worship this god who feeds us and cares for us and periodically fries us with a magnifying glass? Not me! if faced with the choice of being with that monster for eternity, I choose separation.
 

Vengle

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Vengle,

I am not even sure what you are arguing anymore. Are you simply trying to split hairs or argue for the fun of it? I think word studies are the height of reductionism - language is dynamic - the same word can be used to mean many different things - God did not select one magic word to convey an isolated concept.

I do not think you even know what you said.

I guarantee I know of what I speak. Because of my recognition of being so ignorant I have trained well to make up for it.

College professors do not intimidate me. they used to but no longer.
 

aspen

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I do not think you even know what you said.

I guarantee I know of what I speak. Because of my recognition of being so ignorant I have trained well to make up for it.

College professors do not intimidate me. they used to but no longer.

My post is clear. I had not noticed your recognition of your own ignorance.
 

aspen

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You won't since my anointing.

What you will see is what is coming.

Ah, I sense a bit of megalomania......are you special, Vengle?

Have we talked before? Perhaps you were using a different name?
 

justaname

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Vengle,

I am not even sure what you are arguing anymore. Are you simply trying to split hairs or argue for the fun of it? I think word studies are the height of reductionism - language is dynamic - the same word can be used to mean many different things - God did not select one magic word to convey an isolated concept.



Wow......as we supposed to fall down and worship this god who feeds us and cares for us and periodically fries us with a magnifying glass? Not me! if faced with the choice of being with that monster for eternity, I choose separation.
I think you miss the point that God is Love. God is eternal life. God is also just, for He despises evil. He is holy. Do not leave your first love. For I do not love evil, and the creator is not the creation. You stand judging God or that which He created? I implore you in the love of Christ, from the words of the Master, please do not judge.
 

aspen

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I think you miss the point that God is Love. God is eternal life. God is also just, for He despises evil. He is holy. Do not leave your first love. For I do not love evil, and the creator is not the creation. You stand judging God or that which He created? I implore you in the love of Christ, from the words of the Master, please do not judge.

First, I am not judging God, I am questioning your description of God's character and your conclusion (based on your description of his character) that he is good.

Second, if your description of God is accurate, I want no part of Him.

Third, how do you know God is Good? Because He says so? Apparently, you have no standards at all for 'Good'. God could engage in any form of horrific evil, call it good and that would be enough for you?
 

Vengle

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Ah, I sense a bit of megalomania......are you special, Vengle?

Have we talked before? Perhaps you were using a different name?

If we have talked it would have to have been in the last month on this site.

I am myself nobody but the most ignoble among men. I can do nothing. God does it all.

It began during my youth and has been very slow coming but I now have been made to understand what it was all about.

I have been given special attention by God, yes. Do i deserve it? I do not feel that I do. Can I deny it? I tried to for a long, long time.

But when God reveals to you two weeks ahead that things will happen like the World Trade Center affair and you have talked to others about what God told you and then you stand together with them and see it happen before all of your eyes, how do you doubt things such as that?

And if that were the only way He communicated to me that He has a commission for me I would have doubted that. But He reveals things to me continually. And he has performed unquestionable miracles for me which again I was not the lone witness to or i would have thought I was hallucinating. I even drove miles out of my way to see if one of the things he did for me was yet there and it was. And the reason i know for certain these miracles were specifically done for me is because they were things that I asked of him and had not spoken to anyone else about until they happened. The World Trade Center is one of a few He told me about though i had asked Him nothing about it nor did such a thing ever come into my mind prior.

You can believe whatever you want but I know what i know.

A man becomes unshakable after enough of that sort of thing. You would, also.
 

aspen

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Well, Vengle,

All I can do is comment on your theology.
 

Vengle

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Well, Vengle,

All I can do is comment on your theology.

That would require you to first listen to what I say.

And I do not believe you have done that for you have misrepresented what I have said a couple different times.

And unless you have it in you as I do to be glad to find out you are wrong when you are wrong, you cannot ever really listen.

Most all I believe now I only came to believe after finding I was wrong.
 

aspen

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That would require you to first listen to what I say.

And I do not believe you have done that for you have misrepresented what I have said a couple different times.

And unless you have it in you as I do to be glad to find out you are wrong when you are wrong, you cannot ever really listen.

Sorry Vengle, you are not my primary focus - you are one of many AND you are trying to communicate using a far from perfect medium. Also, I admit when I am wrong all the time on this board. Remember, listening goes both ways...you are not my teacher or my authority - and neither am I, yours
 

Vengle

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Sorry Vengle, you are not my primary focus - you are one of many AND you are trying to communicate using a far from perfect medium. Also, I admit when I am wrong all the time on this board. Remember, listening goes both ways...you are not my teacher or my authority - and neither am I, yours

That is the truth.

It is not at all my desire to be at odds with you over anything.

If I knew more specifically what I have said that you disagree with I would be happy to address it or those things.

Of course that is entirely at your desire.

I actually thought that you and i pretty much agreed as to the subject in this thread.
 

aspen

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It is looking like we do. I also looks like I have misunderstood you several times so I apologize for that/
 

Shirley

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It makes me mad when people blame God for the evil he hates! Knock it off! How does God know the begining from the end? Because he is not stuck in time and space the way we are! We can imagine time traveling but he does it. Hello!