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Did God Create Evil?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by FHII, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You have provided 'nothing' but a vain argument that blames God as the creator of evil. Every time I have seen this idea brought up by those who assign the creation of evil to God, they deny many things which God showed His servants of how Satan first rebelled in coveting His Throne.

    And there it is, blaming God for Satan having rebelled against Him!! Sounds just like Job's three whacked friends.
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    If evil originated from God, as some interpret the Isa.45:7 verse, then the following verses serve as a DIRECT contradiction to that kind of reasoning...

    Ps 5:4-6
    4 For Thou art not a God That hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee.
    5 The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
    6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
    (KJV)

    Even today, God is not the author of evil. He has already shown us that He will punish the wicked who rebel against Him using the very evil things they themselves do! Often in God's Word, many of the same evil that people do is returned upon them as a recompense. If they ONLY... hadn't done evil in the first place, they would not have received the same evils back upon themselves! Likewise with Satan and his host.

    When man reaps what he sows, how is God responsible for that? He is not; the individual is.

    But obviously in today's world, many... are confused about that, and will try to blame just about anything and everyone else for the evil they often justly deserve for having done evil in the first place. Those will even stoop so low as to blame God Himself for it, since He is our Creator. Boy, what a twist of confusion from Satan that is with their putting the blame on God!!

    For those in Christ Jesus, don't be deceived why some choose to assign the origin of evil to God. If evil originated from God, then He would not be Just in judging and sentencing Satan to perish in the lake of fire. That's the little secret Satan's servants hide about this kind of discussion.

    All Satan would have to do is say, "It's not my fault; You created me this way." I can picture those who assign the origin of evil to God asking Him to forgive Satan and also offer him Christ's Salvation, can't you? That's the kind of trap their reasoning is leading to though.

    This is why God shows us in Ezekiel 28 that He ORIGINALLY created Satan as a covering cherub 'perfect in his ways', and even once having served Him right at His Altar in the midst of the stones of fire!! Those who refuse to heed God in proclaiming that have turned into advocates in the devil's behalf.
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I absolutely agree with you.

    The problem comes into being in that the same word can be used to denote necessary actions of God's justice which are intrinsically good for the cause of love but bad for the one requiring that such justice be delivered upon them.

    The basic thought of the Hebrew word is "to spoil" and it is just of God to spoil wickedness. We too should spoil wickedness from among us. And so we in God's image have the ability to exercise His justice which includes the ability to spoil wickedness.

    That is why I favor translating the word calamity as in the ESV though I think a word combination such as "just-consequences" or "deserved-calamity" would even serve better. Anything but the use of the word "evil" as that confuses too many people.

    Certainly our use of our ability "to spoil" things in a wicked way is not from God but is instead our perversion of the use of our faculties which do come from God.
     
  4. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    I have posted ten verses supporting God's omniscient nature. God, being omniscient, foreknew all things before He created anything including Satan. To say any different would be saying God didn't know what He was creating. Are you willing to make that claim about God?
    Everything I stated is supported by the bible. Veteran, your entire argument is based on theory and allegories.

    The major problem with your theory is God saw creation as "very good", and the text does not change until chapter 3. To claim any difference is to add to the text. Also you choose to take what God professed to a man and place it on Satan. Theology was never meant to replace the written word.


    When God tells me He created all things, I am not one to disagree with Him. It is you who disagrees. You can if you like, but I don't suggest it.

    In this I know we can agree. God gave us free will, and we reap what we sow. God is not the author of evil, but the author of good. God despises evil.
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    OK guys, He just revealed the root of his belief.

    Now how will you answer?

    Omniscience, another one of those beliefs not named specifically anywhere in the Bible.

    What about it? Is omniscience a true teaching of the Bible.

    Or is it just more confused interpretation which ignores much else in the Bible like as most false doctrines do?

    For you all who do not believe that God created all evil and is not responsible for all evil, might this man's belief be a fruit of what you have sown as an Omniscience doctrine?

    We do reap what we sow you know.
     
  6. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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  7. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I agree that God created all things - evil is not a thing. You have failed to address this point Vengle.

    Here are a few more broken pieces of creation that God did not create:

    Pollution

    Death

    Disease

    Depression/Despair/hopelessness/separation/decay

    Extinction

    None of these concepts are things......they are a broken condition of creation caused by the Fall.
     
  8. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I quite agree with you.

    Do you mean I did not elaborate on my post #51?

    I drew to that there but was dissed as speaking nothing but confusion.

    The fact is that the word "thing" is quite often inserted by the translator and not actually a part of the original text.

    Many are too prideful to see translators as mere humans that sometimes fail to make wise decisions.

    A "thing" does prove to always be a tangible item if one dogs the subject through so that they might know that.

    It is somewhat refreshing to me to see you know that. :)

    Evil is an intangible. It is actually an action rather than a thing.
     
  9. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    What about
    peace
    joy
    happiness
    longsuffering
    goodness
    faith
    meekness

    These are also concepts. Did God not create these also?
     
  10. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    How do you agree with me?

    I missed your post #51, so I went back and read it.

    Here's the problem.....if God created evil, He is morally responsible for the havoc, destruction, and pain it have caused towards His creation. If He created evil, He is an evil Deity. If He created evil, it would be immoral to worship Him.

    Instead, God created the conditions for evil, but He did not create evil Himself. We do not blame car companies for accidents caused by consumers, nor do we blame God for our own misuse of His creation.

    All of those concepts are normal responses to His creation. He created us to feel those feelings in response to Himself, others, and the world around us.
     
  11. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You speak correctly.

    Now read my post #63
     
  12. DLANE

    DLANE New Member

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    God created ALL things. I don't know how to explain it any better. If it's in existence, God made it and allows it to happen. You say, what do you mean allows it to happen? Read the story of Job. God called angels to Heaven, and the Devil came, God's conversation with the Devil proves that nothing happens unless God allows it to happen.
     
    justaname likes this.
  13. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    (1) Don't you think that allowing something to happen is different from creating what happened?

    (2) Does God punish man's commission of evil or doesn't he? And if not immediately will he not punish it at the proper time for it?

    (3) Is it possible that man in God's image has a bit of his own creative ability?

    (4) If it has not yet been devised in a man's heart (which must proceed a man's acting) what exists to know ahead?

    The scriptures speak much about man devising his own schemes.
     
  14. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    God allowing evil to happen and creating evil are different. If God really created evil, we need to stop worshiping Him immediately because it is not ethical to worship an evil deity.

    Ok I read #63 - God doesn't have to actually take action to spoil anything. The natural consequence of wickedness is destruction. Here is the problem - you are failing to recognize that the OT is filled with people describing bad things that have happened around them. Describing calamity by calling it God's Will or assigning the action to God is a commentary on His Sovereignty, not His culpability. Jesus corrected people who did this in the NT - the blind man was blind because of the broken condition of the world, not because God brought it about in response to the sins of his family.

    The main point - a point that is driven into the ground in the OT is that God is sovereign.
     
  15. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Veteran wrote:

    “God addressing Satan as "a man" (like in Isa.14) is not dependent upon the idea of flesh man, simply because the image of man originates from God's Own Image. That's why when angels appeared on earth per God's Word they had the image appearance of man. Even the meaning of the name Gabriel is 'man of God'. So I'd like to know where some get that idea that God can't be referring to Satan because of calling him a man.”

    The problem is that nowhere in Isa 14 is Satan addressed at all. It’s addressed to the king of Babylon. I do agree that it mirrors Satan’s fall, but it is not talking about Satan’s fall. Veteran, what you are doing is trying to take historical accounts and prophecy which Isaiah meant for the King of Babylon and making it all about Satan. Satan is indirectly who these verses are talking about, directly, it’s the king of Babylon.

    Angels appeared as men (and I mentioned an account listed in Genesis 18), but they were still called angels. It doesn’t matter that they appeared as men. They were still who they were, and never in Isa 14 is Satan mentioned. So I’d like to get that idea where God was referring to Satan in Isa 14 (and mind you, I agree there are similarities), when the entire prophecy is about Babylon.

    Let me explain it further. We can see similarities between Jonah and Christ. Why? Because Christ spoke of it. However, Christ is not mentioned in the Book of Jonah, and the prophecy isn’t an exact replica. Jonah was in the whale 3 days and 3 nights; Jesus wasn’t in a whale… He was in the heart of the earth, or you could even find scripture that says he preached in hell. But no… He wasn’t in the whale, and neither was Jonah in the grave or even hell (although he said likened it to hell).

    This I can believe because Jonah talked about it, and Christ said, here’s the sign. He explained it. I have read your commentary on Isa 14, and it’s quite detailed and good. I like it, but still much of it is speculation, and drawing on Eze 28 (that is, claims that Eze is also talking about a direct description of Satan, when he isn’t).

    Your argument is “just because it says he was a man doesn’t mean he was a man!”…. If so, (and if not, please correct me) then when do we trust the Bible is talking about a man when it says “man”? And by the way… Here’s something you should understand… God did not create man in his own image. Adam was in God’s image (though he wasn’t God, just an image).

    So let me say this again: Isa 14 is a prophecy about the King of Babylon. I can even show you in the Bible where it comes to pass. Nebuchadnezzar said himself in the Bible that the prophecy came to pass. I refer to Daniel Chapter 4.

    And yet… As wonderful as your commentary on Isa 14 was, and despite what parts I agree with and disagree with, it is purposeless except in an attempt to validate what you believe about Eze 28. It is purposeless in that it does very little to answer the question of whether God created evil or if Satan did.
    To your credit, you have attempted to answer that, and I will deal with that at the proper time. But all your commentary of Isa is for nothing in this thread, other than to support your beliefs of Eze 28.


    Veteran wrote:

    “Someone has obviously told you to speak against any idea that those chapters are referring to Satan himself, and I'd just like to know what reason they gave you for doing that?”

    That is pretty accusative, and it boarders on insulting. It is true that someone enlightened me to the fact that Lucifer is not Satan. Someone spoke the truth to me. The fact that Eze 28 is not speaking about Satan is my own research. I am getting this from the Bible! So yes someone is telling me to speak against any idea that those chapters are referring to Satan. It’s God! His reason is that it is the Truth.


    Veteran wrote:

    “Your last statement that Lucifer was a flesh man is a theory. That word is not even IN... the Hebrew manuscripts. The KJV translators added it from the Latin name for the planet Venus. The actual Hebrew word that is there means 'morning star', a Title that only... belongs to Christ Jesus Himself (Rev.22).”

    No, it’s fact. The KJV says that Lucifer was a man. It says God created evil. That is not a theory, its fact. If you want to say the KJV is wrong, fine. Do that, and be blunt. By the way, do you not think I haven’t researched what “Lucifer” translates to? Do you not think that I don’t understand what “bright and morning star” means to Christ? I’d like a little credit here, Veteran. That’s why I come against all those who continually call Satan by the name of “Lucifer”. They are giving him exactly what he wants.)




    Veteran wrote:

    “The reason why God used it in Isa.14 was because He was using Satan's own words to mock him with, because Satan's rebellion was about coveting God's Throne in wanting to be God. Thus Satan also tries to steal Christ's Title of The Morning Star.”

    I absolutely believe that Satan is trying to steal God’s thunder (so to speak). But it is nothing but theory that Satan called himself Lucifer and it is theory that God mocked him. Scripture, please.



    Veteran wrote:

    “I can understand how not all Bible believers do not yet 'see' how God uses the flesh kings of Bible history as 'types' for Satan per the Isa.14, 30, Ezek.28 & 31 chapters. But with someone who goes out of their way to try prove against that, when the pointers God left us is obvious, that suggests influence from another agenda, an agenda to hide God's Truth.”

    Once again, I fully support the likeness. However, you are going out of your way to prove that these verses are first talking about Satan when they clearly are not. Again you can use Jonah to prove Christ, but Jonah was not Christ. I likewise believe Jezebel was a likeness of the great whore of Revelation, but she was not it, nor does the prophecy fit 100%. If I am so bent on proving that chapters like Isa 14 and Eze 28 don’t talk about Satan, you are just as guilty of believing they aren’t talking about Nebuchanezzer and the Prince of Tyre.


    Veteran wrote:

    “The reason I say it's an agenda to hide that Truth of God's Word is because of what Satan's original rebellion was about in coveting God's Throne for himself.”

    With all due respect, which is diminishing rapidly, the reason I bring these things out is because GOD SAID IT. God said he created evil. I have a direct quote. You don’t. If you want to attack the KJV, fine. So I’m trying to hide God’s truth by telling what he said? I covet God’s throne for myself? Is that what you are saying? I have a verse that says God created evil and YOU are the one trying to discredit it.

    Veteran wrote:

    “THAT is the main issue God brings up in those chapters used as 'types' for Satan.”

    Again, it wasn’t. I could by that idea because we must understand the spiritual meaning as being more important. So Jezebel being thrown down has more significance in that it was a prophecy. But these verses are speaking of human events. It is the more important, but not the main.


    Veteran wrote:

    “And it was never a flesh man that originally did that sin against God, but Satan himself as the originator of coveting God's Throne.”

    Of course it wasn’t… It was Eve’s fault! It was woman’s!



    Veteran wrote:


    “And naturally, those who serve the devil today do NOT want that kind of information out, nor believed.”

    Please… What are you accusing me of? I have provided or can provide everything I said with the words of God himself. You saying I serve the devil? YOU are the one throwing theories around. Yes, you do use scripture when you can, but you can’t back up everything you say with scripture, can you?

     
  16. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Aspen, what I find interesting about this subject is that it proves Mormon Psychologist Stephen Covey's statement in his book 'The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People' that most people "see what they believe rather than believe what they see". He says, "Believing is seeing". That proves true. And that is why wrong belief is so devastating.

    There are a few directions we can take down this belief and sometimes a person requires all approaches be used. But there are many who just really do not listen to anything that is presented but only pretend to. They are stuck and until such time as they change their attitude we cannot help them. On the bright side though, sometimes a seed or two is planted which impacts and begins to change their hard-core stance over time.
     
  17. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    The reality is this. God condemns sin. Sin is evil. It is God who laid the foundation for the ability of sin and evil by issuing the ability of free will and giving the law. We do not worship an evil deity, for God is the only good. It is God who created Satan, and not the latter, or so to think evil created itself thereby being equal with God, for evil is not equal to God!!!
    Aspen please let me remind you Isaiah 45:9
     
  18. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    So God created evil / uses evil / punishes us for using evil. Sorry, I missed the part where He also good? You are failing to accept the ramification of your characterization of God.

    It is funny that you mention that because it describes you perfectly. I am simply stunned at the superior manner in which you present your heresy - it really is shocking. I am not sure where to go with our conversation, Vengle.
     
  19. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Well don't generalize. :lol:

    If you are going to accuse me of presenting a heresy be specific so I know which one you are talking about. :lol:

    I never said God created evil. That is your misunderstanding.

    I told you to read my post #63 which you obviously have not done.
     
  20. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Let me also remind the brethren that these concepts are states of being, as evil is a state of being. Aside from God, we are in a perpetual state of evil. Evil does exist, evil didn't spring up from nowhere. Satan was the first to sin, whatever the sin was does not matter. The bible with its plain reading of the text does a fine job explaining what happened.
     
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