The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

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Spiritual Israelite

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If you believe that God is finished with Israel as a nation and people group,
I do not. Why would I believe that when Paul said this:

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

The fact is that God has never abandoned the people of Israel. You falsely believe that He has temporarily abandoned them for around 2,000 years so far.

and that there is no future kingdom on earth where Israel is the major people to whom all the gentil survivors of the tribulation look to- then what you hold to is replacement theology.
If that's what replacement theology is, then I have no problem holding to it. I hold to what scripture teaches which is that the blood of Christ has brought Israelite and Gentile believers together as one body (the church). I don't see anyone as being replaced. I see many being joined together by way of their faith in Jesus Christ.
 

covenantee

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If you believe that God is finished with Israel as a nation and people group, and that there is no future kingdom on earth where Israel is the major people to whom all the gentil survivors of the tribulation look to- then what you hold to is replacement theology.
If you believe that God retains a nation of unregenerates based on their DNA rather than their faith and obedience, despite the genetic reality that Abraham's genome is possessed by every member of the human race today, then what you are deluded by is replacement biology.
 

covenantee

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They will mourn when they see Him soon because they will realize that He has been their true Messiah all along. They will be grafted back into the vine.

If that were true, it would mean that Judas will be "grafted back into the vine" because he will "look upon Him whom he pierced" and mourn.

So you should be prepared to meet and greet Judas in heaven.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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If that were true, it would mean that Judas will be "grafted back into the vine" because he will "look upon Him whom he pierced" and mourn.

So you should be prepared to meet and greet Judas in heaven.
Good point. The ones who were cut off were cut off long ago. So, they would be the ones grafted back in since only the ones cut off can be grafted back in.

Of course, we know it's too late now for them to be grafted back in. Some of them were grafted back in long ago after they repented and put their faith in Christ. They were the ones that were cut off and the ones that Paul hoped to help save some.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

In verses 11 and 12 Paul was referring to those who were cut off. He indicated that while they had stumbled and were cut off, it was not a permanent thing for them as some falsely think. In verse 14, he was talking about his hope that he would "somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them". So, when Paul talked about people being grafted back in, he was not alluding to the distant future, he was talking about those who had stumbled (but not beyond recovery) and had been cut off back then being saved and grafted back in back then.
 
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covenantee

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Good point. The ones who were cut off were cut off long ago. So, they would be the ones grafted back in since only the ones cut off can be grafted back in.

Of course, we know it's too late now for them to be grafted back in. Some of them were grafted back in long ago after they repented and put their faith in Christ. They were the ones that were cut off and the ones that Paul hoped to help save some.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

In verses 11 and 12 Paul was referring to those who were cut off. He indicated that while they had stumbled and were cut off, it was not a permanent thing for them as some falsely think. In verse 14, he was talking about his hope that he would "somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them". So, when Paul talked about people being grafted back in, he was not alluding to the distant future, he was talking about those who had stumbled (but not beyond recovery) and had been cut off back then being saved and grafted back in back then.

Yes. Sadly, according to Jesus Himself, Judas is irretrievably lost (John 17:12). So according to dispen error, Judas will be saved; but according to Jesus, he will not.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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It is wrong for you to falsely accuse others with that label when no one is saying that anyone has been replaced.

Do you even know what Replacement Theology is? With an avatar like Spiritual Israelite, you are an excellent example of those who believe that the Church replaced Israel.

Not all were blinded. That's a very important thing to understand. And they weren't blinded randomly. It's the ones who rejected Christ that were blinded. The rest who accepted Him were saved.

I agree. That was then, I am talking about the present and the future.

This idea that God has purposely withheld salvation from most Israelites for the past 2,000 years is not true
Romans 11:8

No, once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then Jesus will return.
Ummm, that's what I said. The fullness of the Gentiles is precisely when the gospel has been preached to every nation - "and then the end will come". ( Matthew 24:14 ).

See here how Paul makes a distinction between the "remnant"/"the elect" of Israel and "the others" of Israel who were hardened? So, he was not differentiating between the Gentile elect and blinded Israel as you claim. He was differentiating between the elect of Israel and the blinded of Israel.
Keep in mind, this letter is to the Romans, mostly Gentiles, likely 25 years after Christ's death and resurrection.
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

So they have been blinded and will be (in part) until Jesus returns! Israel ( of the Jewish bloodline) are the remnant to be saved AFTER the Gentiles are full _ complete _ everyone in the Book of Life accounted for.

My goodness. Are you sexist or something? Out of 144,000, no women are included?
.
Revelation 14:4
These are male virgins "who have not defiled themselves with women". Don't assign false symbolic mumbo jumbo to scripture.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is not talking about people mourning over not realizing He was the Messiah after which they repent and believe in Him.

Wailing, means also mourning, a sorrowful moment of shame.
"Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen." ASV

What in the world is this nonsense? There is no basis whatsoever for grouping Amillennialism in with Non-Trinitarianism and the Left Wing movement.

Are you a Non-Trinitarian? If not then this does not apply to you. I did not group them together as if they were all in the same group, I just suspect that WPM is. I ddi think these groups are all off their rockers. I see parellels with these groups, the way they respond to critism, how they avoid, deny, deflect away from the issues, distort the truth. We see that a lot in the (liberal, Left Wing) news these days. I asked WPM simply if He was a Democrat and he got upset but did not deny that he was. He claimed that the angel mentioned in Rev. 29 was a symbolic reference to Jesus. I said Jesus is not an angel, hence I got the idea he was also Non-Trinitarian.
When someone says something that is not truemthful about me, like being a Pre-Tribber for instance, I will quickly say, no I am not. If someone mistakenly accused me of being a Democrat _wow _ I would quickly straighten them out.
I have experienced this wall separating truth from falsehood. There is a dysfunction communication problem that creates this obvious division between certain groups, even amongst believers.
Catholics /WALL/ Protestants
Amillennialist /WALL/ Millennialist.
Trinitarians /WALL/ Non-Trinitarians
The Right /WALL/ The LEFT
Christians /WALL / Everyone else

There are Premils who have weak faith and Premils with strong faith and there are Amils who have weak faith and Amils who have strong faith.

I agree partially. Do you have faith in Jesus imminent return to judge sin and evil and banish it, along with Satan and set up His Kingdom on earth? No. But I do. You have faith in salvation, but do you think that you can lose it? If for instance, Amillennials all believed that OSAS was not true, then none of them would really have strong faith.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You have nothing to bring to the table apart from insults. Your posts are scant on Scripture and commentary. You just repeating what you have been taught. You do not like your beliefs being challenged. There are so many scriptures above and so much commentary that you have doctor on that is testimony that you have no viable response.


Well then feel free to put me on ignore. I know ho wmany scriptures I have posted- they are many!
 

Ronald Nolette

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I reject your Pretrib error. It is extra-biblical and enjoys no proof-texts in God's Book. Your obstacle every time is fitting each scriptural text in with what you have been taught. That will never happen. Pretrib is an invention of man. It contradicts the teaching of Scripture.


Blah, blah, Blah.

Gods Word says that people will live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, but you reject Gods Word for some reinterpreted reasonings!

Like I cited the Scriptures:

You say the Devil is abyssed decapitated and impotent but two Apostles warned that Satan is alive and well on planet earth deceiving and devoureing.

should I believe you or Gods Word???????? I go with god
 

Ronald Nolette

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The fact is that God has never abandoned the people of Israel. You falsely believe that He has temporarily abandoned them for around 2,000 years so far.

Then let me ask you a question tha tonly requires a yes or no answer.

Do you believe as the Scriptures write that Israel as a nation will be saved as a nation and granted a kingdom on earth?
 

Ronald Nolette

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The fact is that God has never abandoned the people of Israel. You falsely believe that He has temporarily abandoned them for around 2,000 years so far.

And lying is unbvecoming of you.

I never said that nore implied that! You now resort to what seems the standard amil response- just lie about what your opponent says.
 

Ronald Nolette

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If you believe that God retains a nation of unregenerates based on their DNA rather than their faith and obedience, despite the genetic reality that Abraham's genome is possessed by every member of the human race today, then what you are deluded by is replacement biology.

When you can act like something more than a 10 year old, I will gladly engage with you again. but until tehn, may puberty hit you early!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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If that were true, it would mean that Judas will be "grafted back into the vine" because he will "look upon Him whom he pierced" and mourn.

So you should be prepared to meet and greet Judas in heaven.
Once a person is dead, their fate is sealed. Judah hung himself before Jesus was pierced. He felt guilt, threw the 30 pieces of silver back at the Pharisees and darkness came over him. It is interesting that he betrayed Jesus but did not think they intended on killing him. Satan came into Judas, possessed him temporarily ... it was all part of the plan. I wonder, if he asked for forgiveness ... doubt it though. Suicide is influenced by Satan.
 

jeffweeder

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Do you even know what Replacement Theology is? With an avatar like Spiritual Israelite, you are an excellent example of those who believe that the Church replaced Israel.

Gods plan all along was for Israel to have Faith in their Messiah and therefore become the Church along with rest of the world who share the Faith of Abraham. Those who do not have Faith perish.
It's about destiny not replacement.
 
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covenantee

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When you can act like something more than a 10 year old, I will gladly engage with you again. but until tehn, may puberty hit you early!
Don't you believe in replacement biology? How else do you identify your "Israel" and "Jews" if not by biology?
 
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covenantee

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Once a person is dead, their fate is sealed. Judah hung himself before Jesus was pierced. He felt guilt, threw the 30 pieces of silver back at the Pharisees and darkness came over him. It is interesting that he betrayed Jesus but did not think they intended on killing him. Satan came into Judas, possessed him temporarily ... it was all part of the plan. I wonder, if he asked for forgiveness ... doubt it though. Suicide is influenced by Satan.
Zechariah 12:10 declares "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him", and Judas is certainly one of the "they" who pierced Jesus.

According to dispensational teaching, the "they" are granted salvation.

So according to dispensational teaching, Judas will be granted salvation.
 
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covenantee

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These are male virgins "who have not defiled themselves with women". Don't assign false symbolic mumbo jumbo to scripture.

Here is a description of the 144,000 which extols Christ, His Church, and His Glorious Salvation through the ages.

I trust that you will find it not "false symbolic mumbo jumbo".

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
  • Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Here is a description of the 144,000 which extols Christ, His Church, and His Glorious Salvation through the ages.

I trust that you will find it not "false symbolic mumbo jumbo".

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
  • Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
Replacement Theology.
Disagree.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Gods plan all along was for Israel to have Faith in their Messiah and therefore become the Church along with rest of the world who share the Faith of Abraham. Those who do not have Faith perish.
It's about destiny not replacement.
God's plan is exactly what happened and what will be.
 
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