The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

[Truther]

Really.

Heb 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called [by God], obeyed by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land, as in a strange land, living in tents [as nomads] with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise. 10 For he was [waiting expectantly and confidently] looking forward to the city which has foundations, [an eternal, heavenly city] whose architect and builder is God.

Yes, a covenant with Abraham, not you or I.

 

[Truther]

There is no Scripture which claims that the election is future Israel.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Don't voluntarily blind yourself by preteristic presuppositions.

 

[Truther]

In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what many Premillennialists argue. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

The “election” (the elect) mentioned in Romans is simply another term for those who know God. The “blinded” on the other hand are those who are separated from God. The same reality is played out throughout the nations of this world. Notwithstanding, Paul’s main interest in Romans 10-11 is his own kinsmen. So, despite the overwhelming number of Israeli nationals rejecting Christ, the apostle shows that God was still faithful to His chosen people Israel (the elect).

Romans 11:25 fits in with this thesis: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [Gr. porosisor – hardening] in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

This passage continues the theme of what Paul has been presenting in regard to the mystery of the dichotomy between the chosen and the hardened of Israel. Paul is nowhere saying that salvation is by way of Israeli birth right; otherwise he would totally reverse everything he has hitherto taught in his epistles, and counter the consistent teaching of Scripture (Old and New Testament) that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No, Paul is simply expanding upon his preceding comments about an elect people within the physical nation – “a remnant according to the election of grace.” This is true Israel!

Blindness in part does not mean that a Jew is half enlightened and half blinded. The fact is, men are either saved or else they aren’t. We learn, not all Israelis are blinded, only part of Israel. Only they who have experienced eternal life through faith in Christ are saved. The remaining Israelis that depend upon their own works or innate goodness are deluded. Notwithstanding, they are not all deceived; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn’t restricted to an end-time mass corporate repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord’s coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). This reading makes no such suggestion along that line. It is simply speaking of that portion or part of Israel that is not blinded but has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus. They will continue to come to Christ “while” the Gentiles also come through. Again, this grouping is called “a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5).

No one could argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years, because of this they are intimately loved of the Father. They are not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies. These two distinct groups operate under two antithetical banners: “enemies” and “the election.” The enemies are the general Christ-rejecting populace of natural Israel. The election are the believers.

It is difficult to know, and foolish to speculate, too what amount of natural Jews in this day and at the end will come through for Christ. However, whether Scripture indicates the whole nation, the majority of natural Jews or a small remnant of natural Israelites will be saved is largely God’s prerogative. Notwithstanding, it is sufficient to settle upon the trust of the great chief Shepherd.

You fail to understand that God made a deal with Abraham, which deal will be honored at the return of Christ....

Heb 8
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Now, this is all we get concerning that future deal.....

Heb 10
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


...which we only get this included in a teency part of the deal, as Paul described as "partial" and "looking through a dark glass" for us.

We only get a smidgin of that FUTURE Jer 31 fulfilled covenant, but the rest is reserved for future Israel at the return of Christ.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what many Premillennialists argue. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

The “election” (the elect) mentioned in Romans is simply another term for those who know God. The “blinded” on the other hand are those who are separated from God. The same reality is played out throughout the nations of this world. Notwithstanding, Paul’s main interest in Romans 10-11 is his own kinsmen. So, despite the overwhelming number of Israeli nationals rejecting Christ, the apostle shows that God was still faithful to His chosen people Israel (the elect).

Romans 11:25 fits in with this thesis: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [Gr. porosisor – hardening] in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

This passage continues the theme of what Paul has been presenting in regard to the mystery of the dichotomy between the chosen and the hardened of Israel. Paul is nowhere saying that salvation is by way of Israeli birth right; otherwise he would totally reverse everything he has hitherto taught in his epistles, and counter the consistent teaching of Scripture (Old and New Testament) that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No, Paul is simply expanding upon his preceding comments about an elect people within the physical nation – “a remnant according to the election of grace.” This is true Israel!

Blindness in part does not mean that a Jew is half enlightened and half blinded. The fact is, men are either saved or else they aren’t. We learn, not all Israelis are blinded, only part of Israel. Only they who have experienced eternal life through faith in Christ are saved. The remaining Israelis that depend upon their own works or innate goodness are deluded. Notwithstanding, they are not all deceived; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn’t restricted to an end-time mass corporate repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord’s coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). This reading makes no such suggestion along that line. It is simply speaking of that portion or part of Israel that is not blinded but has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus. They will continue to come to Christ “while” the Gentiles also come through. Again, this grouping is called “a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5).

No one could argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years, because of this they are intimately loved of the Father. They are not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies. These two distinct groups operate under two antithetical banners: “enemies” and “the election.” The enemies are the general Christ-rejecting populace of natural Israel. The election are the believers.

It is difficult to know, and foolish to speculate, too what amount of natural Jews in this day and at the end will come through for Christ. However, whether Scripture indicates the whole nation, the majority of natural Jews or a small remnant of natural Israelites will be saved is largely God’s prerogative. Notwithstanding, it is sufficient to settle upon the trust of the great chief Shepherd.

This is Replacement Theology and wrong. You totally misinterpret Romans 11. The Jews were blinded for our sake and have been ever since with a few trickling into the fold here and there.
But God is not done with them. He will remove their blindness. When? When the gospel has been preached to every nation (Matthew 24:14). This is what is meant by the "fullness of the Gentiles". In Romans 11 we see the distinction between the Gentile elect and blinded Israel. The Church did not replace Israel. We were grafted into the vine.
There are currently around 15 million Jews. So a remnant 1/3 of them will be saved when "every eye sees Him". Rev. 7 & 14 prove that God has kept account of the 12 tribes and chose 144k male virgins (part of that remnant) from their bloodline. They will mourn when they see Him soon because they will realize that He has been their true Messiah all along. They will be grafted back into the vine.
Amillennialism, Non-Trinitarianism and let me throw in there the Left Wing movement are off the path of the LORD.
But let me give you some encouragement, since you believe I am petty, infantile, bitter and frustrated. If you believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures, you will be saved. Bad theology does not nesessarily void your salvation. It just might impede spiritual growth. And we see those with weak faith, who don't exhibit fruit of the Spirit, which is somethingbwe need to examine in oursleves: .Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
If these godly qualities are not growing in us (and they take a lifetime), then something is wrong. We are a work in progress and this fruit is the evidence of that progress.
We don't know people online and so can't see it. The fruit of the Spirit can often be expressed in writing, but it is much easier to put words down then to actually love your neighbor. So it is wise to look on the mirror and examine oneself and with that, may God bless you with your spiritual growth.

 

[covenantee]

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Don't voluntarily blind yourself by preteristic presuppositions.

I described previously who the enemies are, and who the election are. Don't attempt to contort the Word into your dispensational delusion.

 

[WPM]

You fail to understand that God made a deal with Abraham, which deal will be honored at the return of Christ....

Heb 8
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Now, this is all we get concerning that future deal.....

Heb 10
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


...which we only get this included in a teency part of the deal, as Paul described as "partial" and "looking through a dark glass" for us.

We only get a smidgin of that FUTURE Jer 31 fulfilled covenant, but the rest is reserved for future Israel at the return of Christ.

There were natural general promises made by God to Abraham's natural progeny under the old covenant. This covenant is eternally gone! These have been superseded by His spiritual promises to His elect to the nations under the new covenant. True Israel has always been the believing remnant of natural Israel. This is the good olive tree. We have been grafted into it. We see this in Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). This demonstrates that biology alone is insufficient to class one as a real Jew. Natural Jews must be followers of Jesus Christ to be legitimate and acceptable spiritual Jews in God’s eyes. It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.

Those that love Jesus (whether Jew or Gentile, Old Testament or New Testament) are His; those that reject Jesus (whether Jew or Gentile, Old Testament or New Testament) are of their father the devil.

 

[WPM]

Yes, a covenant with Abraham, not you or I.

Our Savior is seen challenging the Jews of His day, in John 8:32, saying, “ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

To which they responded, “We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” (v 33).

Jesus replied, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed (obviously speaking naturally); but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (vv 37-38).

The Jews then boasted, “Abraham is our father” (v39).

Christ responds to this misguided boast of these hypocrites, saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [or slave] of sin. And the servant [or slave] abideth not in the house for ever: but the son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (John 8:34-38).

There is such a battle going on here between the natural and the spiritual. The unbelieving religious Jews are pushing their genetic pedigree here as proof of their connection to Abraham, whereas Christ is trying to show them a spiritual truth – showing them that Israel’s inheritance is not secured by native heritage but rather by spiritual means What Jesus was basically saying is: ‘you might be a physical descendent of Abraham and yet not qualify to be a son or a child of God. What then would your ethnic DNA matter?’ He is showing them that faith matters!

These religious Jews had no revelation of their own innate sin. They were depending upon their own self-righteousness. Little did they know it, but man’s only deliverer from sin was standing in their midst. Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. Jews and Gentiles approach God on the same grounds being collectively blighted with the same disfigurement – sin. They consequently require the same cure (the only medicine for this affliction) – the blood of Jesus. All men are on a level playing field when it comes to birth. All are equally required to submit to the exact same requirements – faith in Christ and repentance towards God.

Christ responded to the ignorance of the Jewish leaders: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Our Savior hits these religious imposters clean between the eyes with marksman’s accuracy and sobering truth. Firstly, He informed them that they had no right to consider themselves as “Abraham's children.” He advanced: “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” What He was telling them was: if you truly were Abraham’s children then your life and conduct would be like him and his. He was telling them that behavior reveals identity. He goes even further, He informs them that the evidence of them being true children of Abraham is demonstrated by them loving Him. This is the litmus test of who is a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Romans 9:6-13 confirms: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well they didn't. Amillenialism was not even a concpet born yet.

John did not even teach millenialism with his writing of the 1,000 years of people reigning with Jesus!

Amillenialism and premillenialism are much later coined terms to define what people think the bible taught.

No kidding. Do you think I was trying to say otherwise as if those terms were used back then? Don't be ridiculous. I'm just talking about the concepts of amillennialism and premillennialism, of course.

But as to the Apostles believing was going to establish a kingdom on earth:

Acts 1
King James Version

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



See!!!! The Apostles knew the promise of Messiah reigning on an earthly kingdom with Israel as the major focus. Jesus did not rebuke them, correct them, tell them they are wrong.

What jesus said, I don't know when, only th eFather knows when the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. Thien He said, but instead of being concrned with that- You are going to get power and evangelize everywhere!

Why don't you look at what Jesus actually taught instead of basing your entire belief on Him not telling them they were wrong? Read verse 8. That illustrates what kind of kingdom He has. It's spiritual and does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). He didn't correct them at that time because He knew they would receive understanding once the Holy Spirit came to dwell in them, as occurred on the day of Pentecost, which Jesus was alluding to in verse 8.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Deliverer has already come to turn ungodliness from Jacob.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is the new covenant that was established by the blood of Christ long ago.

Luke 22:In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes...but as touching the election, they are beloved

The enemies were the ones who rejected Christ and were cut off of the good olive tree. The election refer to the remnant who were saved.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

In this passage the "remnant" and "the elect" refer to the same people as "the election" in verse 28 and "the others" refer to the "enemies" in verse 28.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, a covenant with Abraham, not you or I.

That is false. God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed. Who are Abraham's seed? Paul tells us.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is Replacement Theology and wrong.

It is wrong for you to falsely accuse others with that label when no one is saying that anyone has been replaced.

You totally misinterpret Romans 11.

No, you do. And I mean totally. 100%.

The Jews were blinded for our sake and have been ever since with a few trickling into the fold here and there.

Not all were blinded. That's a very important thing to understand. And they weren't blinded randomly. It's the ones who rejected Christ that were blinded. The rest who accepted Him were saved.

But God is not done with them. He will remove their blindness.

Who said God was ever done with them? He has removed the blindness of many Jews for the past almost 2,000 years including 3,000 on the day of Pentecost. The reason He blinded some of them was not so that they couldn't be saved, but so that they would become jealous and envious of the Gentiles who were saved.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

The gospel originally came from the Jews who took it to the Gentiles. God, in His infinite wisdom, turned things around so that once salvation came to the Gentiles, the Gentiles were meant to, in turn, make the Jews jealous so that they would want to be saved as well. And this process has resulted in the salvation of many Jews for the past almost 2,000 years.

This idea that God has purposely withheld salvation from most Israelites for the past 2,000 years is not true. He wants all people, including all Israelites, to repent and be saved and that has never changed. The only thing that changed was His method of reaching them (by way of the salvation of the Gentiles).

When? When the gospel has been preached to every nation (Matthew 24:14). This is what is meant by the "fullness of the Gentiles".

No, once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then Jesus will return. Paul didn't say anything about the blindness of Israel being removed. It was God's plan for them to be blinded partially so that the Gentiles could make them jealous which has helped lead some of them to salvation for a long time now.

In Romans 11 we see the distinction between the Gentile elect and blinded Israel.

Actually, Paul makes a distinction between the Israelite elect and blinded Israel. You need to read Romans 11 more carefully.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

See here how Paul makes a distinction between the "remnant"/"the elect" of Israel and "the others" of Israel who were hardened? So, he was not differentiating between the Gentile elect and blinded Israel as you claim. He was differentiating between the elect of Israel and the blinded of Israel.

The Church did not replace Israel. We were grafted into the vine.

Who said otherwise? Jew and Gentile believers are together as one in the church. That's what it's all about! Why do you want to make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles when the blood of Christ has brought Jews and Gentiles together as one?

There are currently around 15 million Jews. So a remnant 1/3 of them will be saved when "every eye sees Him".

Where are you getting this from?

Rev. 7 & 14 prove that God has kept account of the 12 tribes and chose 144k male virgins (part of that remnant) from their bloodline.

My goodness. Are you sexist or something? Out of 144,000, no women are included? Give me a break. That's nonsense. That is not talking about male virgins. That is talking about those who are spiritually pure. They are virgins in a spiritual sense like what Paul wrote about here:

2 Corinthians 11:1 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

They will mourn when they see Him soon because they will realize that He has been their true Messiah all along. They will be grafted back into the vine.

This is not taught anywhere in scripture. You are taking the mourning out of context.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is not talking about people mourning over not realizing He was the Messiah after which they repent and believe in Him. No, this is talking about people wailing in fear when seeing Him because of the wrath He will bring down on them, like we see written about here:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Amillennialism, Non-Trinitarianism and let me throw in there the Left Wing movement are off the path of the LORD.

What in the world is this nonsense? There is no basis whatsoever for grouping Amillennialism in with Non-Trinitarianism and the Left Wing movement. That is utterly ridiculous.

But let me give you some encouragement, since you believe I am petty, infantile, bitter and frustrated.

You clearly are as you prove with every post.

If you believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures, you will be saved. Bad theology does not nesessarily void your salvation.

That's very good news for you.

It just might impede spiritual growth. And we see those with weak faith, who don't exhibit fruit of the Spirit, which is somethingbwe need to examine in oursleves: .Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
If these godly qualities are not growing in us (and they take a lifetime), then something is wrong. We are a work in progress and this fruit is the evidence of that progress.
We don't know people online and so can't see it. The fruit of the Spirit can often be expressed in writing, but it is much easier to put words down then to actually love your neighbor. So it is wise to look on the mirror and examine oneself and with that, may God bless you with your spiritual growth.

There are Premils who have weak faith and Premils with strong faith and there are Amils who have weak faith and Amils who have strong faith. So, the level of faith and spiritual maturity someone has does not have a direct relation with whether they are Premil or Amil.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No kidding. Do you think I was trying to say otherwise as if those terms were used back then? Don't be ridiculous. I'm just talking about the concepts of amillennialism and premillennialism, of course.

Why don't you look at what Jesus actually taught instead of basing your entire belief on Him not telling them they were wrong? Read verse 8. That illustrates what kind of kingdom He has. It's spiritual and does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). He didn't correct them at that time because He knew they would receive understanding once the Holy Spirit came to dwell in them, as occurred on the day of Pentecost, which Jesus was alluding to in verse 8.

I don't know how you can even conclude that from Acts 1:8

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Keeping things in context which seems like amils loathe to do and keeping it is th efocus of the conversation.:

1 Jessus told the apostles they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the twelve tribes
2. The knew that the kingdom was removed from that generation (Jews of that time frame)
3. Since Jesus died and rose they were wondering if He was going to RE-store the kingdom back to Israel-- as is enormously promised
4. Jesus said He didn't know when that was going to take place
5. It was in the Fathers decision alone as to when.
6. So the apostles in the meantime are to build the church- which also is a literal fulfilment of OT prophecy.
7. Based on teh promises God said He will do for Israel, the church is like a paranthetical time span between Gods dealing with Israel on earth.

And I hate to tell you thisw, but Jesus knew what He was saying and knew we would be discussing this today ! Anormal usual grammatic understanding of what Jesus said si- it s not your business when God will restore the kingdom to Israel! Its only by spiritualizing the passage do you get your convoluted concepts.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is wrong for you to falsely accuse others with that label when no one is saying that anyone has been replaced.

If you believe that God is finished with Israel as a nation and people group, and that there is no future kingdom on earth where Israel is the major people to whom all the gentil survivors of the tribulation look to- then what you hold to is replacement theology.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you do not quote and then exegete a passage, it is unfair to expect others to do the same. The problem is, Amils will quote hard Scripture (as I did above) so the reader can see it for themselves, and they will explain it (as I did above), but Premils totally ignore both. This is their pattern on public forums. Why? Because the Scriptures forbid their beliefs. They have no answer. To embrace the given passages is to reject Premil.

Well I never demanded people to exegete, just present their passages. Exegsis is an empirical science of parsing a passage. But what you do more than practice exegesis is eisegesis.

 

[WPM]

Well I never demanded people to exegete, just present their passages. Exegsis is an empirical science of parsing a passage. But what you do more than practice exegesis is eisegesis.

You have nothing to bring to the table apart from insults. Your posts are scant on Scripture and commentary. You just repeating what you have been taught. You do not like your beliefs being challenged. There are so many scriptures above and so much commentary that you have doctor on that is testimony that you have no viable response.

 

[WPM]

If you believe that God is finished with Israel as a nation and people group, and that there is no future kingdom on earth where Israel is the major people to whom all the gentil survivors of the tribulation look to- then what you hold to is replacement theology.

I reject your Pretrib error. It is extra-biblical and enjoys no proof-texts in God's Book. Your obstacle every time is fitting each scriptural text in with what you have been taught. That will never happen. Pretrib is an invention of man. It contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

 

[WPM]

I don't know how you can even conclude that from Acts 1:8

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Keeping things in context which seems like amils loathe to do and keeping it is th efocus of the conversation.:

1 Jessus told the apostles they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the twelve tribes
2. The knew that the kingdom was removed from that generation (Jews of that time frame)
3. Since Jesus died and rose they were wondering if He was going to RE-store the kingdom back to Israel-- as is enormously promised
4. Jesus said He didn't know when that was going to take place
5. It was in the Fathers decision alone as to when.
6. So the apostles in the meantime are to build the church- which also is a literal fulfilment of OT prophecy.
7. Based on teh promises God said He will do for Israel, the church is like a paranthetical time span between Gods dealing with Israel on earth.

And I hate to tell you thisw, but Jesus knew what He was saying and knew we would be discussing this today ! Anormal usual grammatic understanding of what Jesus said si- it s not your business when God will restore the kingdom to Israel! Its only by spiritualizing the passage do you get your convoluted concepts.

Your opinion does not matter. Where did Jesus teach this literal physical earthly kingdom? Give us Scripture and verse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't know how you can even conclude that from Acts 1:8

With how you look at things (from a carnal, earthly, temporal perspective), of course you don't.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Keeping things in context which seems like amils loathe to do and keeping it is th efocus of the conversation.:

1 Jessus told the apostles they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the twelve tribes
2. The knew that the kingdom was removed from that generation (Jews of that time frame)
3. Since Jesus died and rose they were wondering if He was going to RE-store the kingdom back to Israel-- as is enormously promised
4. Jesus said He didn't know when that was going to take place
5. It was in the Fathers decision alone as to when.
6. So the apostles in the meantime are to build the church- which also is a literal fulfilment of OT prophecy.
7. Based on teh promises God said He will do for Israel, the church is like a paranthetical time span between Gods dealing with Israel on earth.

Keeping things in context you say? Why do you ignore the fact that Jesus said His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20)? Did He say that only to turn around and teach that it will come with observation, thereby contradicting Himself?

And I hate to tell you thisw, but Jesus knew what He was saying and knew we would be discussing this today !

I don't hate to tell you this, but Jesus knew what He was saying and you don't know what you're saying.

Anormal usual grammatic understanding of what Jesus said si- it s not your business when God will restore the kingdom to Israel! Its only by spiritualizing the passage do you get your convoluted concepts.

You ignore what Jesus said about the nature of His kingdom. You believe what you want to believe about His kingdom instead of believing in it the way He described it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your opinion does not matter. Where did Jesus teach this literal physical earthly kingdom? Give us Scripture and verse.

Exactly. His blathering means nothing without scriptural support. Notice how Premils never are able to make coherent arguments and they're just all over the place with their comments while they randomly piece together unrelated scriptures. That's very telling.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. His blathering means nothing without scriptural support. Notice how Premils never are able to make coherent arguments and they're just all over the place with their comments while they randomly piece together unrelated scriptures. That's very telling.

Every conversation is so one-sided. All they're doing is pushing the genuine Bible student in the direction of Amillennialism. They were exposing their own theology by the fact that they have no answer to what the Bible says.