The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil
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Correct.
Also, God made a covenant to Abraham concerning his descendants inheriting the Caanan land.
Happening at the return of Christ.
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
God doesn't care if anybody is a gentile, all he cares about is whether they're Christians..:)
He had the backs of the Old T jews, but then they blew it by killing his son, so unless modern jews (and all other jesus-rejecters and atheists etc) become christians before they die, they'll be in a world o' hurt, because the only way they'll get through the gates is if they answer "Yes" when the bouncer asks them if they're Christians..:)
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Really.
Heb 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called [by God], obeyed by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land, as in a strange land, living in tents [as nomads] with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise. 10 For he was [waiting expectantly and confidently] looking forward to the city which has foundations, [an eternal, heavenly city] whose architect and builder is God.
Opinions are true by the one who gives it....those reading it will not receive it without factual evidence.
However, scripture is accepted by all who are Christians and still there are the many, many different interpretations of what some scriptures are saying and then it appears as if they are rejecting scripture when someone shares their understanding/interpretation of it when it it differs from theirs.
Question: Who is the one the Bible says guides us into all truth?
Answer: it isn't anyone here....
Answer: John 16:13
Amen.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You are consistent in avoiding questions. You answer questions with questions, deflect to other posts, always elusive and avoiding the content when you are put up against the wall. Only one of my posts you answered partially. This is typical of someone who is on the other side of truth, they don't like to face the truth. You couldn't give those kinds of answers in a Courtroom.
You completely ignored my last post about the phrase "angel of the LORD" as being a Christophany. Now you seek some kind of concession from me ... to say I was wrong about one of the many of your answers? It's like a criminal accused of multiple crimes who in the Courtroom tries to con the prosecutor to acknowledge and apologize for mistakingly accusing him of just one of his crimes, which he is guilty of and that in his warped way of thinking, will get him acquitted from all the crimes. Lol
Rev. 20:1 states: "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand". It doesn't use the phrase, "angel of the LORD".
No, that angel is not Jesus and I reiterate that no Protestant or Catholic would claim this angel is symbolic for Jesus - liked you did.
Jesus is not an angel. >> Appearing as one to a man in the Old Testament is not the same as being one. Man only conceived and knew in part and at best his understanding is blurry.
In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”
This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).
Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.
We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”
This is actually saying the opposite to what many Premillennialists argue. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.
The “election” (the elect) mentioned in Romans is simply another term for those who know God. The “blinded” on the other hand are those who are separated from God. The same reality is played out throughout the nations of this world. Notwithstanding, Paul’s main interest in Romans 10-11 is his own kinsmen. So, despite the overwhelming number of Israeli nationals rejecting Christ, the apostle shows that God was still faithful to His chosen people Israel (the elect).
Romans 11:25 fits in with this thesis: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [Gr. porosisor – hardening] in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
This passage continues the theme of what Paul has been presenting in regard to the mystery of the dichotomy between the chosen and the hardened of Israel. Paul is nowhere saying that salvation is by way of Israeli birth right; otherwise he would totally reverse everything he has hitherto taught in his epistles, and counter the consistent teaching of Scripture (Old and New Testament) that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No, Paul is simply expanding upon his preceding comments about an elect people within the physical nation – “a remnant according to the election of grace.” This is true Israel!
Blindness in part does not mean that a Jew is half enlightened and half blinded. The fact is, men are either saved or else they aren’t. We learn, not all Israelis are blinded, only part of Israel. Only they who have experienced eternal life through faith in Christ are saved. The remaining Israelis that depend upon their own works or innate goodness are deluded. Notwithstanding, they are not all deceived; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn’t restricted to an end-time mass corporate repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord’s coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). This reading makes no such suggestion along that line. It is simply speaking of that portion or part of Israel that is not blinded but has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus. They will continue to come to Christ “while” the Gentiles also come through. Again, this grouping is called “a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5).
No one could argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years, because of this they are intimately loved of the Father. They are not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies. These two distinct groups operate under two antithetical banners: “enemies” and “the election.” The enemies are the general Christ-rejecting populace of natural Israel. The election are the believers.
It is difficult to know, and foolish to speculate, too what amount of natural Jews in this day and at the end will come through for Christ. However, whether Scripture indicates the whole nation, the majority of natural Jews or a small remnant of natural Israelites will be saved is largely God’s prerogative. Notwithstanding, it is sufficient to settle upon the trust of the great chief Shepherd.
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I am not sinking into your dark ongoing pit of bitterness, insults and ad hominem. You love it, I hate it. Bye bye. Come back when you are going to act like a Christian.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you are devolving into people I have placed on ignore.
YOuare the one so blinded by covenantal allegorical interpretation and amillenial thought that you do not realize several simple biblical facts.
1. Yes we the church are citizens of the Kingdom of God!
2. We are strangers and aliens on this planet.
3. We are here acting as ambassadors of His kingdom
4. We are holding out the invitation for people to become part of HIs kingdom.
5. The promised covenanted kingdom God said Israel would have, is not the kingdom of God!
6. It is a kingdom ruled by Jesus, but not the NT kingdom of God.
So take a pro-zac, calm down so we can debate, instead of you ranting gibberish.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
True, but I would like to think that some us are led by the Spirit and hence relating that truth. Otherwise why are any of us on this forum?
You don't address the points and Scripture presented to you directly. You just make a speech. This is what it is like to engage with Premils. There are 2 kingdom - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. You make 2 kingdoms of God. That is wrong. There is only one unitary kingdom of God/heaven. The kingdom we enter today is the eschatological kingdom. It is spiritual, ongoing and heavenly. We see its manifestation in all its final majestic glory when Jesus comes.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well which point did I ignore. I think I gave many verses. Even if I did not cite book, chapter and verse.
In another thread I gave your buddy covenantee close to a hundred verses about how life in the millenial kingdom on earth would look like, and was prepared to post about one jhundred more.
Their response was they didn't have time to look at all the verses. But they did have time to vomit out their insults and ad-hominems.
Yes there are two aspiritual kingdoms. But that does not mean there will not be a physical kingdom with physical people living on a refurbished earth.
All that takes is simply reading the bible without an amillenial codebook reinterpreting passages.
One of the biggest issues we have is the simple fact of people reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years! Satan abyssed for 1,000 years.
I have seen you and covenantee and others go into these lengthy diatribes as to why these must be symbolically understood and it is all circumstantial and have nothing to do with teh verses directly!
I have even called you amills out for saying Satan is currently abyssed now! Both Peter and Paul, over 20+ years after Jesus ascension wrote about being aware and prepared for the devil is romaing the earth seeking whom he may devour!
MY question to you still remains:
Why should I take your words literally when you do not take Gods words literally.
And please don't wuss out of this by saying the bible uses symbols. we all know that and they are all recognizable. And they are also all <ALL> defined by Scripture itself without outside help.
If you do not quote and then exegete a passage, it is unfair to expect others to do the same. The problem is, Amils will quote hard Scripture (as I did above) so the reader can see it for themselves, and they will explain it (as I did above), but Premils totally ignore both. This is their pattern on public forums. Why? Because the Scriptures forbid their beliefs. They have no answer. To embrace the given passages is to reject Premil.
Yahdee dahdee dah.
Premil strips Christ of His lofty position and argues He is not currently reigning as King. Premil presents a BIG devil and a small god, a powerful kingdom of darkness and a weak kingdom of God. Amil is the opposite. Christ didn't just defeat Satan 2,000 years ago, he defeated the demonic kingdom. Every demonic spirit was subjugated through the cross-work and placed in a place of spiritual restraint after the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The freedom and restriction that pertains to Satan permeates down through his subjects as he is the representative head. When the kingdom of darkness is described, it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is depicted as a triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world.
Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan's minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.
'Bottomless pit' is an English interpretation of the Greek word abussou. It simply means abyss. It refers to the spiritual prison of spiritual beings. The demonic world is bound by chains until the judgment (as demonstrated in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v6). This does not stop their movement but simply limits it. Satan’s hoards are bound as to their influence but this does not prevent movement. They must keep within heaven’s boundaries. They are like a fierce dog on a chain - he can move, growl and do great harm if you get close to him, but if you stay away from him he is totally limited to what he can do to you.
When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.
Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to only Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm. When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When they are finally punished they receive their punishment at the same time, albeit in the necessary order that Christ ordains (as we saw God judge in the Garden of Eden).
Many Premils quote 1 Peter 5:8, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” yet, they fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer posses. The very next verse (1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We are part of a spiritual resistance movement against him.
Why do Premils never quote this whole passage when challenging Amillennialists who are highlighting the sovereign power and strength of Jesus?
In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”
This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.
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You don't get our subject.
Our subject is God's future covenant with someone else that we are barely included in, in a partial way.
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