The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

[covenantee]

Replacement Theology.
Disagree.

Premil's unspoken claims and conclusions regarding "replacement theology":

Christ's Church perpetuates replacement theology.

Jews who accept Christ are added to His Church, the Church which perpetuates replacement theology.

Jews who accept Christ therefore contribute to the perpetuation of replacement theology.

Jews should therefore not accept Christ, in order to not contribute to the perpetuation of replacement theology.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jews who turn to Christ cause replacement theology?

No. The premise of Replacement Theology is that the Church replaced Israel spiritually and so any eschatological references to Israel from Christ forward to the preasent and into the future is viewed as the Church. So they will look at Romans 11, Rev. 7 & 14, Old Testament prophecy, Covenants concerning Israel as fulfilled or will be fulfilled by the Church. This is wrong. Much of the eschatology in Revelation and many Old Testament prophecies concern Israel as a nation, of Jews (tribal bloodlines) and Jerusalem. This theology leads to a mindset that the Jews had their chance, blew it and so it is over for them and God is finished with them (aside from a few xinverts who trickle in here and there).
This mindset has led to Anti-Semitism as well. "They killed Christ" and so this eternal resentment towards them is held. Caution: Remember, GOD said, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." >> That promise has not expired!
Hatred for the Jews led to the Holocaust. For Christians that hold a hatred against Jews might even view the Holocaust as something they deserved, God's punishment. What was the outcome of that hatred? God cursed those who cursed them.
Presently there are many nations that would prefer Israel to be annihilated. And there is a growing hatred against Israel. This hatred will amount to a catostrophic war in the Middle East where ten nations come against Israel. Iran will be at the helm, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, and others. Russia has assisted Iran in their nuclear program since the 90's and now has a base in Syria. Jerusalem will be a stumbling block. It always has been the center of Biblical history and will be a future Holy City after the Great Tribulation.
We can expect this major war in the Middle East soon.
A side note: This movement against Israel is also a Left Wing movement. Conservatives have always supported Israel, the USA historucally has supported them but in tjes rexent decades a growing hatred has mounted, Pro Palestinian movements, people like Obama and Biden throw them under the bus. This New World Order has an Anti-Semitic under current.
Ya'll need to ask yourself a question: ARE YOU FOR OR AGAINST THE JEWS AND ULTIMATELY ISRAEL?

 

[WPM]

No. The premise of Replacement Theology is that the Church replaced Israel spiritually and so any eschatological references to Israel from Christ forward to the preasent and into the future is viewed as the Church. So they will look at Romans 11, Rev. 7 & 14, Old Testament prophecy, Covenants concerning Israel as fulfilled or will be fulfilled by the Church. This is wrong. Much of the eschatology in Revelation and many Old Testament prophecies concern Israel as a nation, of Jews (tribal bloodlines) and Jerusalem. This theology leads to a mindset that the Jews had their chance, blew it and so it is over for them and God is finished with them (aside from a few xinverts who trickle in here and there).
This mindset has led to Anti-Semitism as well. "They killed Christ" and so this eternal resentment towards them is held. Caution: Remember, GOD said, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." >> That promise has not expired!
Hatred for the Jews led to the Holocaust. For Christians that hold a hatred against Jews might even view the Holocaust as something they deserved, God's punishment. What was the outcome of that hatred? God cursed those who cursed them.
Presently there are many nations that would prefer Israel to be annihilated. And there is a growing hatred against Israel. This hatred will amount to a catostrophic war in the Middle East where ten nations come against Israel. Iran will be at the helm, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, and others. Russia has assisted Iran in their nuclear program since the 90's and now has a base in Syria. Jerusalem will be a stumbling block. It always has been the center of Biblical history and will be a future Holy City after the Great Tribulation.
We can expect this major war in the Middle East soon.
A side note: This movement against Israel is also a Left Wing movement. Conservatives have always supported Israel, the USA historucally has supported them but in tjes rexent decades a growing hatred has mounted, Pro Palestinian movements, people like Obama and Biden throw them under the bus. This New World Order has an Anti-Semitic under current.
Ya'll need to ask yourself a question: ARE YOU FOR OR AGAINST THE JEWS AND ULTIMATELY ISRAEL?

God did not make this covenant with Israel. He made it with Abraham. The spiritual promises that God made with him relate to a spiritual seed. The blessings and curses relate to the redeemed through history (true Israel) - Jew and Gentile.

The focus of Scripture is Christ not Israel, as you constantly promote. Your Israelogy is therefore grossly wrong. You make Israel the center-point of your theology when Jesus was/is that. Jesus Christ is the central character in time –literally. He is the hope of Israel. He is the Messiah. He is man's only Savior and redeemer. He is Lord and God. Throughout this world, time is gauged by the birth of Christ. Think about it: of all the men ever lived, of all the religious heroes and gods that man has ever known, One stands alone at the center of time – Jesus Christ. It is amazing that in every nation in every continent throughout the globe, time is marked in BC Before Christ and AD Anno Domini which is Medieval Latin, translated as "In the year of the Lord." His whole life was a walking evidence and testimony to the fact that He was both God and man. His life, His words and His acts revealed to all that He was God manifested in flesh. But another proof that some overlook was the lengths that Satan went to, to take Him out of the game.

He is the central character of the Old Testament. He is the central character of the New Testament. He is the central character in time. He is the central character in eternity. He is the central character in heaven. He is the central character on earth. God the Father points to Him as His perfect gift to mankind. The Holy Ghost points humanity to Him as man's only hope of redemption. Angels bow before Him, heaven and earth adore Him.

Israel rejected and rejects Christ. Those who hate Christ are not the people of God. They are apostate and of their father the devil. That is a NT fact. There is no special favor for ethnic Christ-rejecting apostate Israel since the cross. Quite the opposite. They are under the wrath of God! The kingdom has been removed from them. God has cursed the natural Israeli fig tree and terminated the ancient old covenant Israeli theocracy. But true Israel (Christ-accepting Israel - God's true elect), the faithful remnant, have been expanded to embrace believers in all nations today. God now works through this spiritual Israeli organism to manifest His name throughout the earth. These are the true circumcision. These are the children if Abraham. These are they that reside in true Zion.

Natural Israel and natural Jews can embrace Christ at any time and be grafted into the good olive tree and be at one with fellow Christians. This is the household of faith. This is the only Israel that carries God's favor.

You hurl the "Replacement Theology" either out of ignorance or to deliberately inflame your brethren. Randy K has been doing that for years. He refuses to change. That is why few Amils respect him or take him serious. The reality is: Amils and Postmils do NOT believe in Replacement Theology. We believe we have been grafted into true Israel (believing Israel). We believe in Inclusion Theology! In this position we stand with Christ, Paul and the NT writers, and also the ECFs. So, we are in good company. Natural Israel is still natural Israel. True Israel or the true spiritual Jews are the NT Church of all nations.

The global expanse of the Gospel to the nations is not a New Testament innovation. It was widely taught throughout the Old Testament. In fact, if you go right back to the book of Genesis you will see the great commission that was put upon the offspring of Abraham to reach the nations with the truth (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-7 and 22:17). Israel was meant to be that beacon on a hill that would shine out to the darkened Gentiles and be spiritually fruitful.

 

[Truther]

I described previously who the enemies are, and who the election are. Don't attempt to contort the Word into your dispensational delusion.

...they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved...


Can you read English?

Are they beloved enemies that are elected?

You bet they are.

 

[Truther]

There were natural general promises made by God to Abraham's natural progeny under the old covenant. This covenant is eternally gone! These have been superseded by His spiritual promises to His elect to the nations under the new covenant. True Israel has always been the believing remnant of natural Israel. This is the good olive tree. We have been grafted into it. We see this in Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). This demonstrates that biology alone is insufficient to class one as a real Jew. Natural Jews must be followers of Jesus Christ to be legitimate and acceptable spiritual Jews in God’s eyes. It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.

Those that love Jesus (whether Jew or Gentile, Old Testament or New Testament) are His; those that reject Jesus (whether Jew or Gentile, Old Testament or New Testament) are of their father the devil.

The OT Law is only removed FOR THE BELIEVER.

The sinner is still judged by it.

Not a word of it will be stricken down until the end of the world.

As long as there is a thing called sin, the Law is in effect for it.


As a matter of fact, this is whom the Law is made for today...


8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

 

[WPM]

The OT Law is only removed FOR THE BELIEVER.

The sinner is still judged by it.

Not a word of it will be stricken down until the end of the world.

As long as there is a thing called sin, the Law is in effect for it.


As a matter of fact, this is whom the Law is made for today...


8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

You make me really dizzy. Do you actually have the ability to address the detail of the posts presented to you? Your habit is to go off on a tangent speak about something that is not what we were talking about. Can you please address the post above that you have ignored, which is many?

 

[Truther]

Our Savior is seen challenging the Jews of His day, in John 8:32, saying, “ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

To which they responded, “We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” (v 33).

Jesus replied, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed (obviously speaking naturally); but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (vv 37-38).

The Jews then boasted, “Abraham is our father” (v39).

Christ responds to this misguided boast of these hypocrites, saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [or slave] of sin. And the servant [or slave] abideth not in the house for ever: but the son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (John 8:34-38).

There is such a battle going on here between the natural and the spiritual. The unbelieving religious Jews are pushing their genetic pedigree here as proof of their connection to Abraham, whereas Christ is trying to show them a spiritual truth – showing them that Israel’s inheritance is not secured by native heritage but rather by spiritual means What Jesus was basically saying is: ‘you might be a physical descendent of Abraham and yet not qualify to be a son or a child of God. What then would your ethnic DNA matter?’ He is showing them that faith matters!

These religious Jews had no revelation of their own innate sin. They were depending upon their own self-righteousness. Little did they know it, but man’s only deliverer from sin was standing in their midst. Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. Jews and Gentiles approach God on the same grounds being collectively blighted with the same disfigurement – sin. They consequently require the same cure (the only medicine for this affliction) – the blood of Jesus. All men are on a level playing field when it comes to birth. All are equally required to submit to the exact same requirements – faith in Christ and repentance towards God.

Christ responded to the ignorance of the Jewish leaders: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Our Savior hits these religious imposters clean between the eyes with marksman’s accuracy and sobering truth. Firstly, He informed them that they had no right to consider themselves as “Abraham's children.” He advanced: “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” What He was telling them was: if you truly were Abraham’s children then your life and conduct would be like him and his. He was telling them that behavior reveals identity. He goes even further, He informs them that the evidence of them being true children of Abraham is demonstrated by them loving Him. This is the litmus test of who is a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Romans 9:6-13 confirms: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.

Did God make a covenant with you specifically or only Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

You are a gentile, correct?

You believe in the God of Abraham so you are included in God's promise to Abraham, correct?

So, you are stuck in a partial, dark glass covenant that has not yet been fulfilled.

This is why we pray and only a few get healed and we roll folks out of our services still in wheelchairs with few exceptions.

The covenant to Abraham is the salvation of the future biological descendants of Abraham, which we only get a far off glimpse of today.

Jer 31 is not fulfilled, so we only get a portion of God's promise to Abraham.

Sorry to deflate your expectations, but you need to get real with their covenant which you are included in.

 

[Truther]

The Deliverer has already come to turn ungodliness from Jacob.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

This is the new covenant that was established by the blood of Christ long ago.

Luke 22:In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

The enemies were the ones who rejected Christ and were cut off of the good olive tree. The election refer to the remnant who were saved.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

In this passage the "remnant" and "the elect" refer to the same people as "the election" in verse 28 and "the others" refer to the "enemies" in verse 28.

Are you FROM JACOB?

 

[Truther]

That is false. God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed. Who are Abraham's seed? Paul tells us.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Did God make a covenant with you?

 

[Truther]

You make me really dizzy. Do you actually have the ability to address the detail of the posts presented to you? Your habit is to go off on a tangent speak about something that is not what we were talking about. Can you please address the post above that you have ignored, which is many?

You post starts wrong saying the Law is ended.

That contradicts the entire NT.

Why move on?

You foundational statement is wrong.

Fix it and the rest can be addressed.....


There were natural general promises made by God to Abraham's natural progeny under the old covenant. This covenant is eternally gone!

 

[Truther]

Is the Law(old covenant) eternally gone?...

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

 

[WPM]

You fail to understand that God made a deal with Abraham, which deal will be honored at the return of Christ....

Heb 8
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Now, this is all we get concerning that future deal.....

Heb 10
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


...which we only get this included in a teency part of the deal, as Paul described as "partial" and "looking through a dark glass" for us.

We only get a smidgin of that FUTURE Jer 31 fulfilled covenant, but the rest is reserved for future Israel at the return of Christ.

What covenant are these millennial sacrifices under? Is this the old covenant restarted or is it a new old covenant? It is definitely not the new covenant!

 

[Truther]

Is the Law eternally gone?...

Rom 7
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband....

1 Cor 7
39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

 

[WPM]

You post starts wrong saying the Law is ended.

That contradicts the entire NT.

Why move on?

You foundational statement is wrong.

Fix it and the rest can be addressed.....


There were natural general promises made by God to Abraham's natural progeny under the old covenant. This covenant is eternally gone!

You do not seem to have the ability to understand the difference between the moral law and the ceremonial law. The moral law points the sinner to Christ. The ceremonial law has been abolished through the death of Christ and the introduction of the new covenant.

 

[Truther]

What covenant are these millennial sacrifices under? Is this the old covenant restarted or is it a new old covenant? It is definitely not the new covenant!

The new covenant.

The sacrifices are only, and have always been a billboard to mankind depicting the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

They are reinstituted as a memorial.

 

[Truther]

You do not seem to have the ability to understand the difference between the moral law and the ceremonial law. The moral law points the sinner to Christ. The ceremonial law has been abolished through the death of Christ and the introduction of the new covenant.

Who is the person that divided the OT Law into 3 parts and deleted 2 of them?

 

[WPM]

The new covenant.

The sacrifices are only, and have always been a billboard to mankind depicting the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

They are reinstituted as a memorial.

Ok then, if so, so where are they taught by Christ and the NT writers in this current new covenant age? And can you give me clear Scripture that they are "memorial"?

 

[Truther]

Why do you folks teach tithes from the Law if it is not a "moral Law"?

 

[WPM]

Who is the person that divided the OT Law into 3 parts and deleted 2 of them?

These Laws were given at different times to serve different purposes. If you do not see that then there is something drastically wrong with your theology.

 

[WPM]

Why do you folks teach tithes from the Law if it is not a "moral Law"?

Do you tithe?