Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[Jack]

You probably mean Kingdom Hall. I don't know anything about them, but I do know the Scriptures and the power of God. What part of Isaiah 9:6 do all the English Bibles say that I'm wrong? Is it the "everlasting father" that means "age" or the "might god" that you're referring to? We don't need to rewrite the Bible to understand it. We just need to understand the culture it was written in. The phrase "Mighty God" can also be better translated. Those who are familiar with the Semitic languages know that a man who is acting with God's authority can be called "god." Although English makes a clear distinction between "God" and "god" the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters cannot. A better translation for the English would be "mighty hero" or "divine hero." Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translate the phrase as "divine hero" in their Bibles.

Are you a Hebrew Language expert? Why are you attacking the Christian Bible?

Isaiah 9:6 (ASV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (AMP)
6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (CJB)
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
Isaiah 9:6 (Darby)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (ESV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
6 For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB77)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NIV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NIV2011)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NJB)
6 For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, ‘Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace'
Isaiah 9:6 (NLT2)
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NRSV)
6 For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (RSV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6 (TLB)
6 For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder. These will be his royal titles: "Wonderful," "Counselor," "The Mighty God," "The Everlasting Father," "The Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6 (TEV)
6 A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6 (Webster's Bible)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

 

[Jack]

I'm sorry your understanding of Psalms 58 is flawed. You supposedly think through the lens of your human eyes and wisdom that babies are innocent, yet the opposite is true according to God. Who do you think wrote Psalms 58 and if you say God, so why don't you believe what He says about babies instead of relying in your human wisdom?

Below you will find one of many such concepts of man's dilemma concerning babies.
Romans 5:12-21 reads:
12) Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that is to come.
15) But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
17) For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offense may abound. But when sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 3:10 reads:
"As it is written, There is none righteous no not one." (no exceptions, not even babies).

It reminds me of the story of how God came to Abraham to tell him that He will destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for their cry of great sin has reached all the way to heaven (Genesis 18). To make a long story short we read that Abraham pleaded with God that if there were 50 righteous would God still destroy the cities and God said if there are fifty righteous He will not destroy the cities. Again Abraham pleaded if there were all the way down to ten will God still destroy the cities? Guess what happened?

It's obvious that during those days there were at least over ten babies living at that time, yet God still destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why? BECAUSE of Romans 3 and Psalms 58!!!

DON'T TRY TO BE SMARTER THAN GOD!

Paul said, "LET GOD BE TRUE AND ALL MEN LIARS."

To God Be The Glory

Like I said, those who think babies burn in Hell are much more likely to burn in Hell than babies.

 

[Peterlag]

Are you a Hebrew Language expert? Why are you attacking the Christian Bible?

Isaiah 9:6 (ASV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (AMP)
6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (CJB)
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
Isaiah 9:6 (Darby)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (ESV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
6 For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB77)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NIV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NIV2011)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NJB)
6 For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, ‘Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace'
Isaiah 9:6 (NLT2)
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (NRSV)
6 For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (RSV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6 (TLB)
6 For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder. These will be his royal titles: "Wonderful," "Counselor," "The Mighty God," "The Everlasting Father," "The Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6 (TEV)
6 A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6 (Webster's Bible)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

All 19 of your translations that have "Mighty God" took it from the same old text that had it MIGHTY GOD and it means mighty god. The fact that 19 Bibles translated it Mighty God does not change the fact that it's referring to mighty god. And a god in the Bible is not Thee God.

 

[JunChosen]

Like I said, those who think babies burn in Hell are much more likely to burn in Hell than babies.

Of course, it's your prerogative to believe in whatever you like just as long as you think what you are believing is what God has declared.

 

[Jack]

All 19 of your translations that have "Mighty God" took it from the same old text that had it MIGHTY GOD and it means mighty god. The fact that 19 Bibles translated it Mighty God does not change the fact that it's referring to mighty god. And a god in the Bible is not Thee God.

There's ONLY one MIGHTY GOD. Jesus, God of the Bible.

 

[Jack]

Of course, it's your prerogative to believe in whatever you like just as long as you think what you are believing is what God has declared.

God sure didn't say babies will burn in Hell. You did.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, God does Create evil.
the real question isn't so much how as why?

No the real question here is who, which you first suggest was the devil, and are now suggesting Christ creates sinful creatures.

Christ creates with power to choose good and evil, but He does not create anything with evil:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The lie of man is that he is created to sin, and so God is the tempter, not the devil.

Like Lucifer, man creates his own lust and sinning, when he does not choose to hold to the word and commandment of God.

That is how angels and men make gods of themselves, and vainly imagine we will have eternal life in our own right by our own power forever.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Why would God allow, or DO, this?

My opinion is that it actually can be simplified into layman's terms.

God is purifying His children.

What God allows men to do on this earth after the womb, by creating us with power to choose, is to choose evil rather than good.

Christ lightens every man coming into the world with desire to please Him, so that the decked is stacked in our favor at birth to do so.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

When man chooses otherwise, it is contrary to Christ's spiritual nature we are created with. And because all men, save one, have done so, doesn't disannul the truth that we are created by Christ and born to to please Him.

The false doctrine of being created with lust to sin, is a 'valid false conclusion' of man's theology: The evidence is true that all men have sinned, but it is a lie that man is created and born that way.

Neither the devil nor God makes us do it: it's the ultimate victimology doctrine of man's religion.

So, whether this sin nature came into the human DNA once in the garden, and has continued to duplicate in every single human since, or whether it is being placed there over and over throughout history (which is a very real possibility),

This is what Paul calls pseudo science, rather than Scriptural truth and doctrine of Christ.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Now, you must say that the 'DNA' seed of Abraham and of David is sinful, and so Jesus was also born with a sinful body. The body prepared for Him by the Holy Ghost from the flesh of Mary's womb is sinful.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The body of Christ was exactly the same flesh and blood as that of all men today: Jesus was not born a sinner, whether by God or the devil, nor is any man born with lust to sin.

So, whether this sin nature came into the human DNA once in the garden, and has continued to duplicate in every single human since, or whether it is being placed there over and over throughout history (which is a very real possibility),

The only truth of this, is that in one sense, no matter how we are born into the world, all men are now tested to love God forever in His fellowship, or to hate God forever in shame and torment.

The lie of being born against God is a purposed excuse for not choosing to love God with all the heart.

Teaching that lie only contributes to the self-justification of the disobedient.

I have no doubt, that you do not use it for yourself, but we are responsible to Christ for what we minister, as well as how we live.

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Why do you think you are the only one to actually try and answer the question of who creates man with sin nature? Those who trust in this lie to justify themselves, won't even acknowledge the question.

Because it is only 'doctrinal' to you, but has nothing to do with your life in Christ today. I was once the same, but no more, and doctrine does matter. I am become much more responsible to Jesus now that I know we are all first created to please Him by His Spirit, and so we have even less an excuse to not do so:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Being created with an 'invisible' sin nature in the womb, is the exact opposite of what the invisible things created by God tell us. And Scripture makes that perfectly clear in Genesis 1, John 1, and James 1:

All men are created in the image of God, not the devil. All men coming into the world are lightened by Christ, not the devil. God does not create man to sin and so is the tempter of evil, not the devil.

He is either gleaning the purest, and most loyal, of souls from this earthly test, or refiner's pot, or He is simply separating His children from the devil's children by way of tempting them in both directions.

God doesn't tempt any man to sin, but only commands to go in the way we were created to go: The way of Christ to love God with the heart, and do good in the flesh.

They are tempted to do evil, while simultaneously encouraged to do good. Their soul is pulled in both directions, but only the Truest, or most pure, come out righteous in the end.

You are speaking of the double hearted of Romans 7, that have not gone on to the deliverance and liberty of the Spirit in Romans 8.

There is an analogous American Indian parable:

"Two wolves are fighting. Which one wins?"

Once again, trying to intermix man's science and fable with Scripture is not good.

Only the sheep win Christ, not the wolves.

 

[GEN2REV]

No the real question here is who, which you first suggest was the devil, and are now suggesting Christ creates sinful creatures.

Christ creates with power to choose good and evil, but He does not create anything with evil:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The lie of man is that he is created to sin, and so God is the tempter, not the devil.

Like Lucifer, man creates his own lust and sinning, when he does not choose to hold to the word and commandment of God.

That is how angels and men make gods of themselves, and vainly imagine we will have eternal life in our own right by our own power forever.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



What God allows men to do on this earth after the womb, by creating us with power to choose, is to choose evil rather than good.

Christ lightens every man coming into the world with desire to please Him, so that the decked is stacked in our favor at birth to do so.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

When man chooses otherwise, it is contrary to Christ's spiritual nature we are created with. And because all men, save one, have done so, doesn't disannul the truth that we are created by Christ and born to to please Him.

The false doctrine of being created with lust to sin, is a 'valid false conclusion' of man's theology: The evidence is true that all men have sinned, but it is a lie that man is created and born that way.

Neither the devil nor God makes us do it: it's the ultimate victimology doctrine of man's religion.



This is what Paul calls pseudo science, rather than Scriptural truth and doctrine of Christ.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Now, you must say that the 'DNA' seed of Abraham and of David is sinful, and so Jesus was also born with a sinful body. The body prepared for Him by the Holy Ghost from the flesh of Mary's womb is sinful.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The body of Christ was exactly the same flesh and blood as that of all men today: Jesus was not born a sinner, whether by God or the devil, nor is any man born with lust to sin.



The only truth of this, is that in one sense, no matter how we are born into the world, all men are now tested to love God forever in His fellowship, or to hate God forever in shame and torment.

The lie of being born against God is a purposed excuse for not choosing to love God with all the heart.

Teaching that lie only contributes to the self-justification of the disobedient.

I have no doubt, that you do not use it for yourself, but we are responsible to Christ for what we minister, as well as how we live.

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Why do you think you are the only one to actually try and answer the question of who creates man with sin nature? Those who trust in this lie to justify themselves, won't even acknowledge the question.

Because it is only 'doctrinal' to you, but has nothing to do with your life in Christ today. I was once the same, but no more, and doctrine does matter. I am become much more responsible to Jesus now that I know we are all first created to please Him by His Spirit, and so we have even less an excuse to not do so:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Being created with an 'invisible' sin nature in the womb, is the exact opposite of what the invisible things created by God tell us. And Scripture makes that perfectly clear in Genesis 1, John 1, and James 1:

All men are created in the image of God, not the devil. All men coming into the world are lightened by Christ, not the devil. God does not create man to sin and so is the tempter of evil, not the devil.



God doesn't tempt any man to sin, but only commands to go in the way we were created to go: The way of Christ to love God with the heart, and do good in the flesh.



You are speaking of the double hearted of Romans 7, that have not gone on to the deliverance and liberty of the Spirit in Romans 8.



Once again, trying to intermix man's science and fable with Scripture is not good.

Only the sheep win Christ, not the wolves.

Nice book.

I'll keep mine short.

It's not a suggestion when it's straight from Scripture.

Again:
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the Light and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

You can take it up with the Author of All That Is if you like.

You're playing shy and insecure by trying to claim it is MY suggestion.

Take it up with The Man Upstairs.

 

[JunChosen]

God sure didn't say babies will burn in Hell. You did.

Again you are putting words in my mouth. If you are looking word for word that God said, "babies will burn in hell" you'll not find it! Rather I did say that the wicked (including babies) will go to hell, as per Psalms 58:3 and Romans 3:10.

The problem here is one of two things: you're either putting a "blind eye" on these Scriptures or you are not aware as to their meaning!

To God Be The Glory

 

[quietthinker]

Who Created or Made a Sing Nature?
ahhmmm, I made my own!

 

[Jack]

Again you are putting words in my mouth. If you are looking word for word that God said, "babies will burn in hell" you'll not find it! Rather I did say that the wicked (including babies) will go to hell, as per Psalms 58:3 and Romans 3:10.

The problem here is one of two things: you're either putting a "blind eye" on these Scriptures or you are not aware as to their meaning!

To God Be The Glory

 

[robert derrick]

Faith ought to be self taught otherwise you are simply regurgitating someones else error and building on their foundation. Blessings
F2F

The faith of Jesus is based only upon what Scripture plainly says, and not on people trying to make it say something different they like better.

You quoting John 1 tells me what?
F2F

That the Word was God, and so is still God.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Here is the problem; if we cannot agree on who God and Jesus Christ are and we cannot agree on why God raised up a man in the line of Adam, or the principles of atonement which saves, then what hope is there for one of us?
F2F

Exactly. My hope is in Jesus Christ the Lord and God of them that love Him.

You have some other created christ produces from constant changing of Scripture into something else.

 

[robert derrick]

Who Created or Made a Sing Nature?
ahhmmm, I made my own!

The simple truth of Scripture.

Lucifer made his own. Adam made his own. And every man that has ever sinned made their own.

Jesus is the only man that never made his own, and those born of Him and faithful to Him, are not making their own today.

Even temptation does not come from another, but from our own lust drawn and enticed to what others may be doing, or what the spirit of this world speaks of:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[MatthewG]

Here is a good answer:

Romans 5:12-21
New American Standard Bible 1995

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[robert derrick]

Nice book.

I'll keep mine short.

It's not a suggestion when it's straight from Scripture.

Again:
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the Light and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

You can take it up with the Author of All That Is if you like.

You're playing shy and insecure by trying to claim it is MY suggestion.

Take it up with The Man Upstairs.

Ok, your interpretation.

My interpretation of the Scripture is that God creates good and evil, the same way He creates life and death: By creating living beings with power to choose good and live with Him forever, or to choose evil and die to Him forever. Therefore God has power to create that which is alive and good, and yet can become evil and dead by their own choice given to them from God.

Your interpretation is that God creates sinful and dead creatures, that are evil by His creation and have no power to do otherwise.

That interpretation makes Christ a devilish creator, and is the tempter of man to sin. That is the interpretation that Scripture rejects in James 1, where God does not tempt any man to sin, neither can He sin by creating sinful creatures.

That is why the main question is who is the creator of sinful men born dead to God from birth.

Most people who like the sin nature theology from birth, don't touch the question. You are the first to do so, which is good, but first you said it's the devil that does so, and then changed it to God, and then suggested it is Christ working with the devil to do so.

The simple truth is that angels and men are the authors and creators of their own lust and sinning, beginning with Lucifer, then Adam, and all men thereafter, except Jesus.

That is why sinful angels and men are spoken of as gods, that are no gods, but are idols made of themselves without Christ. All angels and men are created alive and good by Christ, with power to make themselves evil and dead without God and the life and light of Christ.

Thanks again for the effort.

 

[face2face]

That the Word was God, and so is still God.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

And it's for you to know what that Word achieved in the Son of Man. Look into that man and you will see wonders beyond the falseness of the Trinity. You will see an authentic Gospel working in the mind of a Son who overcame sin's flesh and was highly exalted to a position he did not previously enjoy. An inheritance he did not previous possess. A name he did not previous have.
F2F

 

[GEN2REV]

Your interpretation is that God creates sinful and dead creatures, that are evil by His creation and have no power to do otherwise.

Thanks ... for the effort.

No, I'm pretty sure I referenced the Wheat and Tares doctrine of Matthew 13 in our very first exchange on this topic.

It doesn't take much "effort" to completely ignore portions of someone's post in order to claim they're wrong.

I still haven't quite pegged you.

First exchange I ever had with you here, you were vehemently arguing with me about a Christian's right to get drunk.

We've agreed on a few things, but most of the time you seem to prefer finding a way to argue with people.

What is the psychology of that? Not really here to discuss Scripture, but more as a virtual outlet to assert power/dominance/control?

You don't even seem to want to get along with anybody.

Hmmm ... the jury's out.

 

[quietthinker]

You don't even seem to want to get along with anybody.

Hmmm ... the jury's out

lol....sometimes it takes a bit to get a handle on folk. Mental instability coupled with religious fanaticism is rampant on these sites!

 

[GEN2REV]

lol....sometimes it takes a bit to get a handle on folk. Mental instability coupled with religious fanaticism is rampant on these sites!

I know it's true, but I try not to see it that way.

What does it say about me?

 

[quietthinker]

I know it's true, but I try not to see it that way.

What does it say about me?

self awareness is surely helpful!