A polite question for pretribbers

[Spiritual Israelite]

This isn't really hard tbh, people overthink things that God sees as simple as 1 and 2. The Righteous vs. the Wicked.

If you have a weekend with two baseball games between New York and L.A. and you go to the first game, it doesn't matter if you show up in the first inning or 9th inning, you still went to the first game.

The fact that those in Rev. 20:4 are resurrected AFTER Jesus' Second Coming/Advent tells us all we need to know, we see human being in Heaven in Rev. 4, 5, 7, and 19, who then return with Jesus. It is obvious the Righteous are Resurrected FIRST...........Then 1000 years later, after Jesus' 1000 year reign the Wicked are resurrected.

NOTICE, only those who died whilst the Beast LIVED (a small 3.5 year period) LIVE & REIGN with Jesus for his 1000 year reign, thus they are resurrected after Jesus returns, his bride is raised before the 70th week. The Bride, IMHO, goes back to heaven to help build the New Jerusalem, thus as New Jerusalem descends it is called "The Bride of Christ" and cities are not called inanimate objects like that per se, the Bride descends in New Jerusalem, IMHO.

When things do not fit in your mind, always use the simplest method to solve the problem. That would be that there are only two Resurrection, The Righteous and the Wicked. Meanwhile, those in Rev. 20:4 CAN NOT BE Resurrected at the same time as the Bride of Christ. It is not possible. Problem solved.

As a pre-trib you believe that there will be a mass resurrection of the dead several years before the first resurrection occurs, right? Please explain how that makes any sense when the first resurrection would actually be the second resurrection that takes place according to your pre-trib view.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi stunnedby grace,

I think you are right about not judging those outside the Body of Christ for God`s grace doesn`t just extend to us but to Israel and the nations when we are gone.

Now as to those who gave a cup to Christ`s brethren, (the Jews in that context as the Body of Christ was not revealed then). Those are the `sheep` nations and they will not die, (just then) thus not resurrected then, but go into the millennium.

Glad we can agree on some things. Marilyn.

Okay, wow. This confused me horribly, so I went back to your first post and to my shock, I did the thing I so hate when others do it. I completely ran roughshod over your post and entirely misread what you were saying.
Real sorry about that. Thank you for explaining.
AND you didn’t even snap at me, which I would have deserved. So you were an example of what is good.

 

[Jay Ross]

But I’m not sure we were meant to be able to figure out the exact time, and I find I can’t.

I agree with you, I do not know the exact year, let alone month or day, with respect to our present-day calendar, however, the Bible does indicate the span of the ages, in years, between when Adam was created and when the final judgement will occur. The span of this time period can partly be determined historically in that we can determine the starting point for a prophecy given in Ezekiel 47 with some degree of certainty and depending on how we interpret the Ezekiel 47 prophecy, we can determine when the river of life will cascade over the escarpment to begin the healing of the earth.

The end of this present age occurs when the time period of the visitation of the sins of the fathers upon their children and their children's children has run its full course as given in our understanding and interpretation of Exodus 20:4-6 where the third and the fourth time period that the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers occurs over, in my understanding, is for two ages, where the duration of an age is 1,000 years plus a little while. The duration is spelt out in Daniel 7:12 as a season and a time where the season has a duration of 1,000 years and the timespan is not determined, but from the Book of Revelation we know what is to happen after the season has ended because we are told in great detail what is to happen between when the Bottomless pit is unlocked and when Christs takes capture of the Beast the False Prophet and Satan and dispatches them into the Lake of Fire. just before the Great White Throne Room judgement of humanity begins as described in Revelation 20 which ends with the Bottomless pit, i.e. Hades and the Second Death being cast into the Lake of Fire. It is after the end of the time of the final judgement that the Book of Revelation begins to detail the renewal of the earth in which the righteous Saints will commune with God and Christ during the time of eternity.

The question that you are asking and would like a determination on is, "When does the catching up occur, when the resurrected Saints and the Saints, who will be still alive at that time, will meet Christ in the air as He finally descends, with all of the Heavenly Hosts, to judge all of humanity?"

Christ also gave a number of clues as to when the Great Harvest of Souls will begin. In Luke 16 he links Israel's redemption with the time that Satan goes away for a time to get a kingdom and Israel sends messengers after him stating that the no longer want Satan to be king over them. In Luke 14 Christ also tells us that Israel will attempt to construct a third temple but that they will not have the means to complete the task and in fact the nations rise up against Israel to stop the temple construction from being completed. He then goes on to tell that the kings of the earth are in a battle with a king and that Israel will consider whether or not they can defeat this king battling the other nations or not and conclude that they need to ask this king for His terms of peace.

In Matthew 24:32 Jesus indicates when the Summer Season of harvest will begin after the Fig tree once more begins to bud leaves. He then goes on to tell the disciples that this age of harvest will not end until all that has been prophesied has been completed.

We are presently seeing the Sixth Bowl Judgement unfolding in front of us, and we have seen the three frog like spirits go out to all the earth to perform their signs and wonders to begin the drawing of the kings of the earth to gather at Armageddon to be judged in sight of Jerusalem to fulfil the Isaiah 24:21-22 prophecy. This is the judgement of the gentiles for trampling God Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts, Israel, over a period of 2,300 years. Paul in Romans 11:25-26 that when the fulness with respect to time of the prophecy of the Gentiles, trampling God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts has come to its completion of 2,300 years that all of Israel will be saved. It is after this judgement that Christ is given dominion over all of the earth that the people should worship Him. It is at this time that Israel become the First Fruits of Jesus' dominion over all of the people of the earth.

II is at this point that God's Holy Priesthood goes out into all of the World for a period of 1,000 years unopposed to make disciples of the people in the earth.

Christ's dominion rule is a Priestly Rule in Heaven and the Saint who have lost their heads up and until that time for Christ, and who have not worshipped the beast or taken his mark, will take part in the First Resurrection and will become Priests with Christ and perform their priestly duties in Heaven with Him.

The rest of the dead saints at that time will have to wait until Christ returns permanently to the face of the earth to be part of the second resurrection.

After the 1,000 years has run its course, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked for a little while period when Satan will try to undo all of Christ's holy priesthoods salvation work and the Great Tribulation will begin. If my life is taken early, even during this present time, my pray is that God's Glory will be seen in my living and dying.

I see not mention of a Pre-trib rapture in what is prophesied in the scriptures.

Should the lives of the Saints be cut short, God's Glory will be seen in them, because they know what is to come at the time of the Final judgement.

Christ warned us that those who try to save their life, will in fact lose their life and become a candidate for the Second Death. The warning in the Parable of the separation of the Nations rings loudly in my ears. Everything that I do must be because of my focus in the works that Christ has called me to do in His Name. I do them so that His Glory can be seen. That is the calling for all of the Saints.

Shalom

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh boy…that’s much different than anything I ever heard or considered.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I don’t agree with terribly much of it but thanks!

 

[Enoch111]

As a pre-trib you believe that there will be a mass resurrection of the dead several years before the first resurrection occurs, right? Please explain how that makes any sense when the first resurrection would actually be the second resurrection that takes place according to your pre-trib view.

You may not think that certain things occur in phases, but the First Resurrection does in fact occur in three phases (1 Cor 15:20-24) just like a Hebrew harvest. And that answers your question:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept... But every man in his own order: [Phase 1] Christ the firstfruits; afterward [Phase 2] they that are Christ's at his coming. [Phase 3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Did you notice that word "afterward"? It means that the Resurrection/Rapture will occur long after the resurrection of Christ (but could be very near to us). And "then cometh the end" speaks of the period just before the setting up of the Millennial Kingdom as well as what follows. That is when the Tribulation said are resurrected.

 

[The Light]

As a pre-trib you believe that there will be a mass resurrection of the dead several years before the first resurrection occurs, right? Please explain how that makes any sense when the first resurrection would actually be the second resurrection that takes place according to your pre-trib view.

If you can't figure out what decree issues the order to rebuild Jerusalem when it is in the text, or when the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar is when its historical fact or that Passover, the 14th of Nissan, falls on a Wednesday making it impossible for Christ to have died in 30 AD, how could you possibly expect to figure out anything that takes a little deductive reasoning. It just isn't going to happen.

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh boy…that’s much different than anything I ever heard or considered.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I don’t agree with terribly much of it but thanks!

That is okay. I do not mind that you do not agree with terribly much of it. What I have shared is around 20-30 years of pondering and sifting out the truth from what has been written about the Kingdom of God.

For a time, I devoured much that was coming out of the Pre-trib camp and found that I could not hold to their "theories." They did not make any sense.

Over the 20-30 years of ponderings, I have had to let many complex ideas sit up there somewhere in my mind until I saw a new revelation in what I had read in the Scriptures provided the clarity for my understanding.

I also sat down and over a period of time, put the scriptures into chronological order which meant that many "Christian Myths" were destroyed.

One such myth was the age of Isaac when he followed Abraham, his father, to be sacrificed unto God. Isaac was not a wee little lad of 10-13 years old at this time. He was much older, probably around 30+ years old when they both went up the hill to the place where God required Abraham to put Isaac on the pile of wood for the sacrifice. Isaac never returned home with his father to live with him. Isaac went into the Negar regions of the land of Canaan to live away from his father. He did return home to his father's household when his mother died, because he took his mother's tent to live in after she had died.

The trouble I ran into when reading the scriptures was that the Holy Spirit would prompt me to delve deeper into the source texts to verify the context of the original text with the given context of the translated passage.

It does take time to sort out these differences I was finding in the scriptures. One of those differences was the biased understanding that Israel when God redeems her must return to the Promised Land but that this was contrary to the passage in: -

2 Chronicles 7:19-20: - 19 "But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, 20 then I will uproot them from My land which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.​

NKJV​

What I read in the Bible, is that when God begins to gather Israel to Himself after the 3rd and the 4th ages of the visitation of the fathers' iniquities upon them, that he will plant them in a fertile field and will teach them on the Religion of Israel and will sprinkle them with water to cleanse them so that they can become His Priests during the Seventh Age. This has meant that I have had to be able to recognise the metaphorical language contained within the scriptures to let it reveal God's truth to me. This has meant that I could not just read the scriptures in the literal sense that many "Christians" advocate.

This means that reading the scriptures from a literal sense, hides or seals up the scripture such that we are not able to understand what has been written. God's promise is that in the last days people will be able to hear and see what is actually written in the scriptures.

Stunnedbygrace take your time to meditate upon what I have posted and allow the Lord to reveal to you whether or not what I have posted His truth on this topic.

May the Lord Bless you in your endeavours in seeking out His truth.

Shalom

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You may not think that certain things occur in phases, but the First Resurrection does in fact occur in three phases (1 Cor 15:20-24) just like a Hebrew harvest. And that answers your question:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept... But every man in his own order: [Phase 1] Christ the firstfruits; afterward [Phase 2] they that are Christ's at his coming. [Phase 3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Did you notice that word "afterward"? It means that the Resurrection/Rapture will occur long after the resurrection of Christ (but could be very near to us). And "then cometh the end" speaks of the period just before the setting up of the Millennial Kingdom as well as what follows. That is when the Tribulation said are resurrected.

You are sure reading a lot into that passage that isn't there. I'm not seeing what you're seeing there at all. What I see is Paul saying that the order of bodily resurrections (the context is resurrections unto immortality) was that Christ's was first and then next in order are those who belong to Him at His future coming. That's it. There is no mention of any resurrection occurring after His coming there. You are adding that to the text.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you can't figure out what decree issues the order to rebuild Jerusalem when it is in the text, or when the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar is when its historical fact or that Passover, the 14th of Nissan, falls on a Wednesday making it impossible for Christ to have died in 30 AD, how could you possibly expect to figure out anything that takes a little deductive reasoning. It just isn't going to happen.

LOL. What a cop out. This is what you came up with to get out of explaining why you believe there will be a mass resurrection even before the first resurrection? Wow. I'm sure everyone here can see that your doctrine is ridiculously convoluted and can't possibly be true.

 

[Marilyn C]

Okay, wow. This confused me horribly, so I went back to your first post and to my shock, I did the thing I so hate when others do it. I completely ran roughshod over your post and entirely misread what you were saying.
Real sorry about that. Thank you for explaining.
AND you didn’t even snap at me, which I would have deserved. So you were an example of what is good.

Hi stunnedby grace,

I can also quickly read a post and `judge ` it. So, we all make mistakes. So glad we are fine now.

Marilyn.

 

[The Light]

LOL. What a cop out. This is what you came up with to get out of explaining why you believe there will be a mass resurrection even before the first resurrection? Wow. I'm sure everyone here can see that your doctrine is ridiculously convoluted and can't possibly be true.

Already explained it in Post #7, but it's way, way, way over your head as evidenced by past interactions.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And so it begins again. It’s always the same few. Lol.

 

[Jay Ross]

And so it begins again. It’s always the same few. Lol.

I am so sorry that the thread has gone in the direction it has.

Shalom.

May the Lord Bless you in all things of the heart

 

[Tommy Cool]

The meaning isn't different, it's just a different way to say the same thing which is common in all languages.

"the dead in Christ rise first" which is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.


1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


"Rise first" is literally the same as "first resurrection" found here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

The words don’t mean the same thing, but I am not dealing with that portion of it.

I want to address the bigger picture….where you state that the record in 1Th 4:16 is the same event as that of the first resurrection.

You may think they refer to the same event …and if they are, you cannot have any differences … that is axiomatic. You may have additions which is not out of the ordinary …. but differences would nullify the events being the same.

This epistle of Thessalonians is written to the Church of God (1Th 1:1, 1Th 1:4). Brethren is used 16x throughout this epistle and it does not address anyone else….it does do a comparison in chapter 5, where it compares unbelievers to the brethren in the Church of God.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye (brethren) sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we (brethren) believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you (brethren) by the word of the Lord, that we (brethren) which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we (the brethren) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those who were asleep) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we (those who were dead and those alive in Christ) ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The words “in Jesus” or “in Christ” are used only in the epistles...and regarding those in the grace administration (born again believers). This section from 1Th 4:13-18 does not include anyone outside the Church of God born again believers…. no one, believer or unbeliever from the gospels or Old Testament period is included in this.

Verse 17 states we are caught up together with them (the dead in Christ who are raised first) to meet the Lord in the air. Jesus does not physically come to earth….it says in the air and that is what it means. And so shall we ever (Always) be with the Lord….None of that sounds like Jesus coming to the Mount of Olives.

Mat 24:31 “And he shall send his angels (plural) with a great sound of a trumpet”
When He comes for the Church of God it’s the voice of the archangel (singular) and with the trumpet of God.

 

[ewq1938]

The words don’t mean the same thing

Yes they do and I have already proven it. "first resurrection" and "rise first" is speaking of the same exact event of the dead in Christ coming back to physical life.

 

[Enoch111]

There is no mention of any resurrection occurring after His coming there. You are adding that to the text.

No. I am simply connecting the dots. Why do Christians frequently fail to connect the dots? The very fact that Revelation speaks of the resurrection of those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast, and this is connected to the Millennium should be sufficient.

Christ comes from Heaven with ALL His saints and angels, destroys the Beast and the False Prophet (along with all His enemies) and then sets up His Millennial Kingdom (Rev 19 and 20). That is when these Tribulation saints are resurrected to live and reign with Him for 1,000 years. At the same time they are also connected with "the First Resurrection", since they are the last phase of that "First Resurrection".

 

[Davy]

Oh…! That’s very good I think. I’ve never heard that brought up. It helps me with those who gave a cup of water! I think it does say “books, plural. Have to go look at that.

I know not that many have considered what I showed, and I hate to keep repeating my warnings about not being fooled by men's traditions that are often taught instead.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 about those still alive on earth when Jesus comes, being 'changed' on the "last trump" at the "twinkling of an eye", that is most often taught to happen only for those of Christ's Church.

But in reality, we were given a hint back in Isaiah 25:6-9 that 'change' will be for all... nations still alive on that day of Christ's future return. That Isaiah 25 chapter is where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the "Death is swallowed up in victory" idea.

Where many get confused is by not understanding what Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 about that 'change' with death swallowed up in victory. In the 1 Corinthians 15:53 verse, Paul used 4 DIFFERENT GREEK words to show that to have 'eternal' life in Christ, one must go through TWO CHANGES. The 1st change involves this body of corruption putting on a body of incorruption (the "spiritual body" Paul taught). And the 2nd required change is "this mortal", about the soul, must put on immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ.

That is why many make the mistake of thinking just having a resurrection type body means only for those in Christ's Church. No, the unsaved will have the resurrection type body too when Lord Jesus returns, the unsaved still alive will be changed too. The difference though is the unsaved will still have mortal souls in a liable to perish condition being subject to the "second death" at the end of the thousand years.

Still being subject to the "second death" after Jesus' future return means not being a 'born again' believer on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ. And the 4 different Greek words Paul used in the 1 Corinthians 15:53 verse reveals this. English Bible translators simply failed to bring those 4 different Greek words into the English, because it's obvious they also thought that verse is only for those in Christ Jesus, but they forget about the "resurrection of damnation" with the unsaved being raised from the dead also at His coming and given the "spiritual body" also, but the difference being their spiritual body will still be subject to the "second death".

It all comes down to many not having done their homework in the Old Testament prophets of God's Word, like that Isaiah 25:6-9 Scripture where Paul got the 'swallow up death in victory' idea.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

As a pre-trib you believe that there will be a mass resurrection of the dead several years before the first resurrection occurs, right? Please explain how that makes any sense when the first resurrection would actually be the second resurrection that takes place according to your pre-trib view.

It won't make sense to a person who has tunnel vision. The First Resurrection is ALL OF THE RIGHTEOUS, you are the one hung up on timing, this universe was created for us with its Space Time Continuum, there is no time in Eternity. God lives in all time at once.

There are 2 Resurrections, the first one happens over 7 years because the Bride must be raise, and then those who had to go through the tribulation have to be raised. You are the one who can not discern the simple stuff. You get hung up on first and second. Again, doesn't a baseball gane have nine innings?

 

[marks]

And so it begins again. It’s always the same few. Lol.

I do hope you got what you were hoping for! Sorry about what happened to your thread!

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Already explained it in Post #7, but it's way, way, way over your head as evidenced by past interactions.

LOL. You are the one in way over your head. The truth is not nearly as convoluted as you make it out to be.