How can we be perfect and complete? Is it by Law, or by faith?

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Gospel Believer

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Make no mistake Matt, God has always had laws. God's people are still regulated by laws, we call it the law of the Christ. Gal 6:2. In the new system, new scrolls will be opened, we know that laws will be included, but of course we will have to wait to see what our instructions are. I was using the Biblical definition of perfect Matt, only 3 humans have ever been perfect, and only one remained perfect. Why? Because he never sinned.


The only Law that Jesus left us with is this one...... as a matter of fact it is referred to as “ The Law Of Christ “—— “ Take on the burdens of others “...... yep, that’s it.....the only Law left in this Age Of Grace , this side of the Cross.......

If you are a fan of Commands, Jesus left us with only two—— #1 Believe #2 Love

All of those 613 old testament Laws? They were given to “ close your mouth”.....in other words, they were given to show you that can’t keep them and to show you your need for a Savior......
 
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farouk

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The only Law that Jesus left us with is this one...... as a matter of fact it is referred to as “ The Law Of Christ “—— “ Take on the burdens of others “...... yep, that’s it.....the only Law left in this Age Of Grace , this side of the Cross.......

If you are a fan of Commands, Jesus left us with only two—— #1 Believe #2 Love

All of those 613 old testament Laws? They were given to “ close your mouth”.....in other words, they were given to show you that can’t keep them and to show you your need for a Savior......
Hi @Gospel Believer It's interesting that Hebrews 7:12 says that the law was changed; and Hebrews 7:19 says that what we now have is better than the law.
 

Gospel Believer

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Hi @Gospel Believer It's interesting that Hebrews 7:12 says that the law was changed; and Hebrews 7:19 says that what we now have is better than the law.
All true, of course.....I think what is even more important is this—- “by the Law, no flesh will be Justified” or “ if one could be Saved by Keeping the Law, Jesus Died for no reason”.......
 
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Robert Gwin

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The only Law that Jesus left us with is this one...... as a matter of fact it is referred to as “ The Law Of Christ “—— “ Take on the burdens of others “...... yep, that’s it.....the only Law left in this Age Of Grace , this side of the Cross.......

If you are a fan of Commands, Jesus left us with only two—— #1 Believe #2 Love

All of those 613 old testament Laws? They were given to “ close your mouth”.....in other words, they were given to show you that can’t keep them and to show you your need for a Savior......

What is your take on Heb 10:24,25 GB?
 

MatthewG

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You know I don’t question people’s salvation.

I believe Robert is a believing Christian and many people are that believe in the death burial and resurrection.

If they are convinced they need to keep the law that is fine, it is similar to how the Mormon Church really dictates things more on material well being than faith in Christ to be seen as right with God.

I believe this: it’s no good for people to be in bondage. There are people out there in the world that go to church, I love them, go for it, no problem.

The fear I have for people is if they are being put under the burden of must dos, like tithing and giving money to church or they aren’t right with God. Or if they miss a day of church they need to be disciplined, or even if they find out something personal about an individual and they display it before everyone.

Sad. That makes me sad to see people humiliated, bamboozled out of money, and having to listen to some man behind the pulpit rather than the Bible and being lead by the spirit with God himself.

That is my own issues that I hate about aspects of “Christianity culture”.
 

Gospel Believer

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What is your take on Heb 10:24,25 GB?


These verses have scared millions of believers over the years and have caused many to live the lie that they somehow never commit a “ willful sin” when anybody with a brain realizes that most , if not All sins are Willful...... there ain’t nobody out there sinning “ by accident”—— think about it.

The problem is that “ text without context is error”....... these verses only become “ scary” when they are taken out of context.....The name of the book that contain these verse is called “ Hebrews” .....there is a good reason for that.....The author of the book is addressing Jews—— Jews that are being forced to make a decision —— there are nine chapters that precede Hebrews 10 ......the only sin being discussed in All Of these chapters is the sin of Unbelief...... if the Jews return to Temple Worship and continue to put their faith in the blood of animal sacrifices instead of the blood of Christ —— THAT is the “ willful sin” being talked about.....it would be a sign of Unbelief....” treading on the blood of Jesus “ and counting it as “ worthless” ......The Word is out ! It is now the Shed Blood Of Jesus , the “ One Time Sacrifice” That takes away ones sins—— not the blood of bulls and goats....

The Old Hymn got it right .....it really “ IS” * nothing but the blood of Jesus “ That Saves a person .......the Hebrews that “ sinned Willfully” by rejecting the blood of Jesus were Lost back then .....
2000 years later if one rejects that same blood, it is proof of Unbelief.....I think we ALL can agree about the Eternal Fate Of any Unbeliever Of any Age.....

There is not a soul alive that does not commit sins on purpose at times.....treat those sins the same way that God does —— put them on the cross ......expect Chastisement if God deems it Necessary but stop thinking you are damned because ot those sins ....they too are covered by the precious blood of Jesus.....thank God for His Grace and try to do better , unless you derive pleasure out of being taken to God’s “ Woodshed” .....your Salvation was a Gift and the Gifts Of God are “ without recall”...... stop being scared of Hebrews 10 if you have put your Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus to Save you....sleep better at night....lol....
 
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MatthewG

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These verses have scared millions of believers over the years and have caused many to live the lie that they somehow never commit a “ willful sin” when anybody with a brain realizes that most , if not All sins are Willful...... there ain’t nobody out there sinning “ by accident”—— think about it.

The problem is that “ text without context is error”....... these verses only become “ scary” when they are taken out of context.....The name of the book that contain these verse is called “ Hebrews” .....there is a good reason for that.....The author of the book is addressing Jews—— Jews that are being forced to make a decision —— there are nine chapters that precede Hebrews 10 ......the only sin being discussed in All Of these chapters is the sin of Unbelief...... if the Jews return to Temple Worship and continue to put their faith in the blood of animal sacrifices instead of the blood of Christ —— THAT is the “ willful sin” being talked about.....it would be a sign of Unbelief....” treading on the blood of Jesus “ and counting it as “ worthless” ......The Word is out ! It is now the Shed Blood Of Jesus , the “ One Time Sacrifice” That takes away ones sins—— not the blood of bulls and goats....

The Old Hymn got it right .....it really “ IS” * nothing but the blood of Jesus “ That Saves a person .......the Hebrews that “ sinned Willfully” by rejecting the blood of Jesus were Lost back then .....
2000 years later if one rejects that same blood, it is proof of Unbelief.....I think we ALL can agree about the Eternal Fate Of any Unbeliever Of any Age.....

There is not a soul alive that does not commit sins on purpose at times.....treat those sins the same way that God does —— put them on the cross ......expect Chastisement if God deems it Necessary but stop thinking you are damned because ot those sins ....they too are covered by the precious blood of Jesus.....thank God for His Grace and try to do better , unless you derive pleasure out of being taken to God’s “ Woodshed” .....your Salvation was a Gift and the Gifts Of God are “ without recall”...... stop being scared of Hebrews 10 if you have put your Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus to Save you....sleep better at night....lol....

Praise be to God for the Lord Jesus! God has taken care of sin! A new Spiritual life comes about by looking towards him. :) Seeking and searching in faith.
 
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Robert Gwin

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These verses have scared millions of believers over the years and have caused many to live the lie that they somehow never commit a “ willful sin” when anybody with a brain realizes that most , if not All sins are Willful...... there ain’t nobody out there sinning “ by accident”—— think about it.

The problem is that “ text without context is error”....... these verses only become “ scary” when they are taken out of context.....The name of the book that contain these verse is called “ Hebrews” .....there is a good reason for that.....The author of the book is addressing Jews—— Jews that are being forced to make a decision —— there are nine chapters that precede Hebrews 10 ......the only sin being discussed in All Of these chapters is the sin of Unbelief...... if the Jews return to Temple Worship and continue to put their faith in the blood of animal sacrifices instead of the blood of Christ —— THAT is the “ willful sin” being talked about.....it would be a sign of Unbelief....” treading on the blood of Jesus “ and counting it as “ worthless” ......The Word is out ! It is now the Shed Blood Of Jesus , the “ One Time Sacrifice” That takes away ones sins—— not the blood of bulls and goats....

The Old Hymn got it right .....it really “ IS” * nothing but the blood of Jesus “ That Saves a person .......the Hebrews that “ sinned Willfully” by rejecting the blood of Jesus were Lost back then .....
2000 years later if one rejects that same blood, it is proof of Unbelief.....I think we ALL can agree about the Eternal Fate Of any Unbeliever Of any Age.....

There is not a soul alive that does not commit sins on purpose at times.....treat those sins the same way that God does —— put them on the cross ......expect Chastisement if God deems it Necessary but stop thinking you are damned because ot those sins ....they too are covered by the precious blood of Jesus.....thank God for His Grace and try to do better , unless you derive pleasure out of being taken to God’s “ Woodshed” .....your Salvation was a Gift and the Gifts Of God are “ without recall”...... stop being scared of Hebrews 10 if you have put your Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus to Save you....sleep better at night....lol....
I understand, so consider Isa 2:2-4, do you consider that to be for our time period GB?
 

Gospel Believer

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I understand, so consider Isa 2:2-4, do you consider that to be for our time period GB?

I don’t know.....i have never spent any time studying about it.....why should I ? Why do you ask? What is the relevance ? I really don’t care about it .....maybe you can give me a reason why I should....
 

robert derrick

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What does this phrase mean to you? Perfected in the mind and immortal in body?

My understanding is to be perfected and complete is to put on Christ. Romans 13:14.

Immortal bodies are the resurrected and changed bodies of the saints at Christ's return.

A perfected mind is also at the resurrection, where we will be as God in glory, where we can no longer be tempted to sin.

As men on earth, including Jesus, our minds can only be renewed, but not yet made perfect. All temptation begins in our renewed minds, and so we must continually cleanse our spirit and minds of them, by casting them down at the obedience of Christ.

Being perfect with God in mortal bodies, is having a perfectly whole heart toward God, to love Him with all the heart. We have pure hearts without lusting, but only renewed minds that must resist temptation, until the devil flees.

Those who say being perfect with God, is having no inglorious thoughts whatsoever, are shying tempting thoughts is sinning, and so they call Jesus the worst sinner ever, since He was tempted with thoughts from the devil more than any man ever. He simply cast them down and refused them every single time to remain pure in heart and blameless in life.

As you say, that is what sons of God born of Christ are also commanded and called to do:

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

Thank you for sharing what you believe here in this section. Im not opposed to people undergoing sanctification in this life by the Spirit, but they won't be sinless (though they may sin - less) for all fall short of the glory of God and need Jesus - who has taken their sins away already. The choice to walk with him is up to them, and they are made complete with Him, by faith initially in which a crop can be produced which is always having love for God and others.


You were doing good, until you reverted to the usual justification of sinning from cradle to grave, as though Jesus Christ had not come in the flesh, nor is resurrected and now living within His people.

And you undermine your own teaching to do it.

If no man can answer the call to God's glory on earth, then neither can any man do His virtue:

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

A life of godliness and virtue is the glory of Christ Jesus in man today.

You are saying that no man in Christ Jesus can walk as He walked, nor live godly, holily, and unblameable with Him on earth.

And you quote Scripture pertaining to all men, before coming to Christ, in order to do so.

As well as rejecting the testimony of the apostles and exhortation of Scripture:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

When you're teaching the truth of Scripture, that applies to all men, you are doing well. But when you revert to confessing what a sinner you are, and apply it to all men, you do not well. In your personal life, you can only speak for yourself.

(though they may sin - less)

Trying to now do more good than evil, and just be better neighbors, is the humanist theology and gospel that you preach. And I am quite sure there are plenty of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, even atheists, that do a better job of it than you.

In any case, your gospel of sinning, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, that Jesus, Paul and the other apostles preach in Scripture.

Go and sin no more.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue sinning, that grace may abound?

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God's gospel is sin not, but if any man sins, then we can be forgiven and reconciled to God again.

Man's gospel is sin less, and when men do sin, for all men surely shall, then men are already forgiven anyway.
 

MatthewG

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1 john 1:8
New International Version
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

There are many ideas and concepts people get off this verse.

1 John 3:9
New International Version
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.


There are many ideas and concepts people get off this verse.

They both most go together in harmony.


Wanna know how I look at it? Allowing the spirit to come through you, that Spirit of Christ will never sin, and he deserves the credit.

our flesh will always fall short, no flesh will ever glory in front of God.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31

New King James Version

29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”


This life is about living a life for God, in Christ Jesus, to have love for God and love for others.

If we make it this simple people dont like it, it's not enough to satisfy what they wanna do, they wanna try and perfect their flesh, when the real work needs to be done in the heart.

:)
 
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Robert Gwin

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I don’t know.....i have never spent any time studying about it.....why should I ? Why do you ask? What is the relevance ? I really don’t care about it .....maybe you can give me a reason why I should....
I guess I am a bit deceived by your handle GB. I guess it doesn't matter then. If I am misreading you, and you actually would like to look into it, please let me know.
 

Gospel Believer

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I guess I am a bit deceived by your handle GB. I guess it doesn't matter then. If I am misreading you, and you actually would like to look into it, please let me know.


I don’t care at all to look into it.....just explain why I should .....why do you bring it up .....what point are you trying to make? Please elaborate....
 

Robert Gwin

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I don’t care at all to look into it.....just explain why I should .....why do you bring it up .....what point are you trying to make? Please elaborate....
Life or death GB. Jehovah offers life or death, everlastingly. Any sacrifices we make today will be well worth inheriting everlasting life, don't you think?
 

Bob Estey

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To be perfect is to be complete - or to have integrity.



In this instance Jesus is teaching his audience which was his disciples on the mountain here, He said near the end here, closing - Be perfect, therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect. As mentioned earlier, that being perfect is to be complete or to have integrity; There are only two options to choose from.

Is Jesus telling his disciples to be perfect in the flesh? Or to be perfect and complete in faith in Him?




Here, with the disciples Jesus with a person who came up to Him. From verse 16 the man probably of Jewish decent due to what he is enquiring, saying Teacher what good thing must I do to get eternal life? What a direct and straight forward question here in which this person was to the Messiah who was the very Word of God sent to set the captives free. In verse 17 Jesus responds, which I believe He (being the very Word of God) is referring towards his flesh with this man here saying Why do you ask me about is good? Which I believe is pointing about how with-in the flesh there is nothing good about it (though inside which people had yet to know what the Spirit of God, and the very Soul of the Word of God made flesh. You may differ.

Jesus goes on to state that "There is only One who is good. (meaning God - Jesus's Father). IF you want to enter life keep the commandments." Why is Jesus saying this, if he was someone who fulfills the law and the prophets? Because Jesus is pointing the man back to the commandments which by his birthright he had done and knew about having probably gone to the synagogues growing up from childhood.

Which the Man asked Jesus which ones are you talking about that I should keep? Jesus replies with you shall not murder, commit adulty, steal, not give false testimony, honor your mother and father, and love your neighbor as yourself.

The man states back to Jesus, All of these I have kept. What is it do I still lack that I may gain eternal life? So here the man replies, saying he has kept most of the commands that Jesus had just mentioned to him, in verse 18-19, looking at verse 20.

Here Jesus mentions being perfect again, to be complete, have integrity - “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Verse 21.

Jesus again here refers again to the material means - which this means is for a spiritual means too - responds saying that if he desires to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Thinking about this, to let go of our flesh in trying to feed it by possessions it is better to let go, and to give those are in need so that the man will have treasure in heaven.

Just as Jesus said to his Disciples in Matthew 5, how is it we can be perfect? He stated that it was to be perfect as their Father in heaven is perfect. Here to be perfect, the man needed to materially sell everything he had because he was wealthy. Jesus ends it by saying once he has done that, he will have treasure in heaven and should come to follow Him.



After the man had left, - in an instance you can see a mark here between old covenant and new covenant Jesus was brining forth. As the man - left onward (not sure what he did) but went back to his material ways that he first performed by the flesh, of perfecting in obeying the law to be made right with God because Jesus doesn't say here right out they he was right with God just yet, until the follow Him part in which He would be made seen right with God by faith. That is where being complete in Him is found and it is finished comes into play that brings forth new life to a believer in which they begin to follow after Jesus.

So why is it hard for a rich to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? Because they do not see their flaws before a truly perfect and holy God. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter into the kingdom of God. The question here becomes what does it mean to be rich? That could be rich in pride, status, placing oneself above others, not just wealth itself. Because it is okay for Christians to make money, and save it and use it as they will but not to be come prideful above others because of it. That is why it is so hard for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

After explaining this to them, the disciples Who then can be saved?

Jesus responded and looked at them, with this is impossible (through material means), but with God (through spiritual means) with Him all things are possible.

So what does it mean to be perfect is it by the flesh or by and through faith in Christ and resting in his works, and having relationship with the Father, to walk in integrity to be open and honest with God with our failures and to believe on the one whom God had sent.
I guess the way to be perfect is to stop sinning.
 

Desire Of All Nations

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I have to stay true to what I believe even if it deems me someone who is not to be associated with. Such as my radical views on Christ return and the like.
Anyone who calls themselves a Christian is supposed to be true to what the Bible says, not their own beliefs. When a person says some nonsense like "i have to stay true to what i believe", they are making an implicit attempt to make their own opinions and feelings the standard of truth. That's not how it works. If someone isn't clinging to the truth, they're clinging to worthless opinions.
The only Law that Jesus left us with is this one...... as a matter of fact it is referred to as “ The Law Of Christ “—— “ Take on the burdens of others “...... yep, that’s it.....the only Law left in this Age Of Grace , this side of the Cross.......

If you are a fan of Commands, Jesus left us with only two—— #1 Believe #2 Love

All of those 613 old testament Laws? They were given to “ close your mouth”.....in other words, they were given to show you that can’t keep them and to show you your need for a Savior......
The Bible defines love as keeping God's commandments in 1 Jhn 5:3 and Rom. 13:10. So when someone tries to play the "law of Christ" card as if it excludes living by God's commandments, they are preaching a counterfeit gospel of a counterfeit Christ. The biblical Christ commanded His followers to do what He did, and He didn't live by a different set of commandments than the ones that were given at Sinai.

Contrary to what a lot of undeduated "Christians" today love to believe, grace does not absolve anyone of living according to those commandments because they still define biblical morality. That hasn't changed at any point between 2022 A.D. and Christ's death, as James clearly taught in his epistle that it will be the standard that Christians and non-Christians alike will be judged by.
 

MatthewG

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Anyone who calls themselves a Christian is supposed to be true to what the Bible says, not their own beliefs.

What does it mean by their own beliefs? What is staying true to what the Bible says? Isn't it believe on the one whom God had sent, and have a life having love for God and love for others?

When a person says some nonsense like "i have to stay true to what i believe", they are making an implicit attempt to make their own opinions and feelings the standard of truth. That's not how it works. If someone isn't clinging to the truth, they're clinging to worthless opinions.

Not sure exactly what that means, I did say that I have to stay true to what I believe even concerning Jesus Christ and his victory already over Satan, and his Angels, Sin, Death, and Hades. That also I believe he truly did by faith come rescue those who were waiting and watching patiently for the Lord Jesus Christ to appear for the second time to take them I believe right before the wrath of God had fallen on Jerusalem and all of their heavens and earth were destroyed (Geneaologies, Priesthood, Sacrifices, Temple) all done away with which brought for the the New Covenant that Jesus had established by his shed blood which now people all have the choice to either come and feast with the Lord or not, it is totally up to them. God is good.

 

Gospel Believer

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Anyone who calls themselves a Christian is supposed to be true to what the Bible says, not their own beliefs. When a person says some nonsense like "i have to stay true to what i believe", they are making an implicit attempt to make their own opinions and feelings the standard of truth. That's not how it works. If someone isn't clinging to the truth, they're clinging to worthless opinions.

The Bible defines love as keeping God's commandments in 1 Jhn 5:3 and Rom. 13:10. So when someone tries to play the "law of Christ" card as if it excludes living by God's commandments, they are preaching a counterfeit gospel of a counterfeit Christ. The biblical Christ commanded His followers to do what He did, and He didn't live by a different set of commandments than the ones that were given at Sinai.

Contrary to what a lot of undeduated "Christians" today love to believe, grace does not absolve anyone of living according to those commandments because they still define biblical morality. That hasn't changed at any point between 2022 A.D. and Christ's death, as James clearly taught in his epistle that it will be the standard that Christians and non-Christians alike will be judged by.


Feel free to follow Moses.....I do what Jesus said to do THIS SIDE of the Cross——I Follow Paul.....I do that by Resting in the Gospel Of Grace Found In 1Cor15:1-4....If you are not Trusting In That Gospel to the point of Resting in it ( which means trading in the Law Of Moses for your guidance to Trusting in the Holy Spirit to lead you) , God says in Hebrews that you are Guilty Of Disobedience and UNBELIEF!

Jesus preached Law because He lived in the Age Of Law....the Plan changed.....God revealed to Paul the “ Mysteries “ That Jesus knew about but never once revealed to His Disciples.....One Of Those “ Mysteries “ is that we are Saved by simply Believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead—— Peter preached that we got Saved by believing in who Jesus “was” , Plus Baptism to Receive the Holy Spirit....Paul preached that one got Saved by believing what Jesus “ DID” ......Simply Believing “ Pauls Gospel”, Given to Him by the same Jesus that previously taught the Law That He and the Disciples were living under, was enough to get you the Holy Spirit, thus getting one saved....

“ Morality”......even if it is Based on the Biblical Morality Of The 613 Commandments is great! It sure beats “ IMmorality” .......unfortunately , we are not saved by being “ Moral”........we get Saved by “Turning to God ( Repentance) with Faith in Jesus Christ”......if one could get Saved by being moral or by being a superb Commandment Keeper, Jesus Died in vain....The Old Hymn got it right—— it really * IS* , “ Nothing But The Blood when it comes to Salvation....