Was God.....

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Aunty Jane

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ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
How good that you are asking these difficult questions...that is how we learn. :Thumbsup:

In giving humans free will, God gave them a simple command that caused them no hardship whatsoever.
It was a small test of their obedience and respect for his position as their Supreme Sovereign. He had the right to set limits to the freedom he gave them. The penalty for breaking this simple command was not small or insignificant however....it carried the death penalty, giving the humans some idea of how important it was to maintain their obedience to their Creator....allowing him to determine what was good and what was evil, and not themselves.

Such knowledge was kept in God’s jurisdiction for a very good reason.....evil would not touch their lives if they just trusted their Creator to make those decisions for them. A knowledge of evil would never benefit them, but because they could not be told to obey God, and the devil had tempted the woman with her own self interest, they had to be shown where that knowledge would take them, now that the deed was done.

They had it good, but satan suggested that they could be “like God” knowing good and bad for themselves.....he planted a seed of doubt that things could be even better. She then persuaded her husband and they threw the entire human race into slavery to sin and death.

God could have put the rebels to death....but that wouldn’t have answered the issues that the devil had raised...was God a liar? Was he keeping something from the humans that they were entitled to? Did they deserve to know everything? Shouldn’t they decide for themselves?

Executing the rebels would only prove that God is more powerful.....he had to prove that they were wrong, so he used the situation to institute an object lesson that would show the rebels where their disobedience would lead them. That way, actions would speak louder than words....and God would have a record in his “book of life” of who have proven worthy to enter his kingdom, due to their record of willing obedience to his laws.

Keep knocking....keep seeking...keep asking....God’s word has the answers.
 
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thelord's_pearl

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He put the Tree OF Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL on the Garden ALONG WITH allowing Satan in there for a purpose. He knew what would happen, it was part of the plan. We cannot really know and appreciate what is good (all of God's attributes and blessings) unless we go without and experience evil. We could not know what love is unless we don't have and all of of a sudden it comes along. Mercy, forgiveness, kindness, joy, love, patience, all are experienced in a state of need. If we didn't need anything, if we didn't suffer, pain and darkness, ee would not really appreciate and know what he LIGHT IS. God had to arrange it this way, a world of good and evil. Remember, it wasn't the Tree of Knowledge of Evil only! It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
So He wanted the appreciation of good (I understand that) but it failed so He got Jesus to die for us on the cross as a better plan. That still means He was not exactly all-knowing as some say as He didn't know it would fail so He introduced Jesus to die on the cross for us. Thanks Aunty Jane, that you appreciate me asking difficult questions because I want other ideas that can be better than mine.
 

-Phil

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Far out Phil. We used to use that term in the 70's when I smoked pot and did drugs. We used goof on abstract concepts too like yours. That was 50 years ago.
What specifically did you find abstract or conceptual?
Maybe it only seems so initially.

My question is, what are you on?
A chocolate peanut butter banana vegan protein shake presently.

I don't know what yoir post has to do with God's plan that included both good and evil?
An infinite unconditional being would not know what evil is, and therein couldn’t formulate a plan including it. Nor could it know a past or future.

"The room is empty or there is a chair in it ..." Is this something you got from Maharish Mehesh Yogi?
I haven’t heard of him. It’s just what came to mind.

"Life is an illusion, both infinite and finite ... to be conscious of the all nothingness is to be one with Buddha". Lol
What’s being said about what’s being said isn’t what’s being said.

Earth to Phil! There are two realms of existence, the physical and spiritual. Christians live on both, knowing one pretty well and not much about the other.
What’s being said isn’t meant as conceptual. It’s only verifiable in direct experience.

We do know good and evil, that was my point!
In direct experience (non-conceptual & verifiable) there isn’t an experience of we know. There isn’t even an actual experience of I know. That might seem far out at first as well.

"But inspection of direct experience without the application of thought can reveal more than thoughts about experience…"
Wow ... far out man, real deep. Sounds contradictive. Inspection requires thoughts!
At this point I must refer you to an expert on the subject, Inspector Gadget, he'll tell you all about it.
What’s said isn’t really far out, it’s the present. Thanks for bringing Inspector Gadget to mind! Love that show.
 
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thelord's_pearl

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So I just want to know if it's possible for God to be not exactly all-knowing or all-intelligent since this:
So He wanted the appreciation of good (I understand that) but it failed so He got Jesus to die for us on the cross as a better plan. That still means He was not exactly all-knowing as some say as He didn't know it would fail so He introduced Jesus to die on the cross for us. Thanks Aunty Jane, that you appreciate me asking difficult questions because I want other ideas that can be better than mine.
And it's ok for me if God was not all-knowing or all-intelligent
 

Johann

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How is it glorious if only a FEW would enter the narrow gate of everlasting life? I'd rather God be not all-knowing and not all-intelligent than to be the one who would know that MANY would go to hell
Take it to God if you don't like what stands written and don't limit Him to fit into you finite mind.
Personally I think your post is blasphemous.
J.
 

Johann

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How is it glorious if only a FEW would enter the narrow gate of everlasting life? I'd rather God be not all-knowing and not all-intelligent than to be the one who would know that MANY would go to hell
Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
Keeping watch on the evil and the good.


Ephesians 1:9-11
having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Psalm 139:1-18
O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it. Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You. For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
'For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?'
'Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?' For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Psalm 44:21
Would not God search this out?
For He knows the secrets of the heart.


Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’


Isaiah 55:8-9
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
'For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Take note @thelord's_pearl


Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Genesis 8:1
Then God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the animals that were with him in the ark. And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subsided.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
And taught Him in the path of justice?
Who taught Him knowledge,
And showed Him the way of understanding?


Isaiah 45:6-7
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’


Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 
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Aunty Jane

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So I just want to know if it's possible for God to be not exactly all-knowing or all-intelligent since this:

And it's ok for me if God was not all-knowing or all-intelligent
The Bible says that God is Omniscient (all knowing, which encompasses his vast intelligence) and he is Omnipotent ...but it never says that he is Omnipresent....he does not need to be everywhere at once. Nothing happens that he is unaware of.

God knows all things, being able to know from the beginning how something will end....(Isaiah 46:10)....that is why he can allow the devil a relatively free hand to test out the human race because he can steer things in a new direction if he sees a need....like he did with the flood. Mankind were descending into a moral morass way too soon because of the intervention of the wicked angels and the violence and immorality that they were generating.......so he reset everything and started again with Noah and his family, eliminating all the bad influences from the past generation and starting over with a clean slate.
 

quietthinker

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ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
Knowing/prediction does not equate to causality......for example, I can predict that you will be dead in a hundred years or even sooner and be right yet that does not mean I caused your death.

Love is vulnerable; vulnerable to exploitation, vulnerable to abuse, vulnerable and all it encompasses.

Jesus knew he was going to be killed yet he didn't cause it. He loved those who hated him and prayed for their forgiveness. Was he unintelligent? Was he naive? Was he a few cards short of a deck? No, he loved! that was his reality. Love risks life and limb...it is vulnerable.
A mother who rushes into a burning house to save he baby doesn't do it to be a hero......she does it because she loves her baby and will risk even her own life.
 
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quietthinker

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The Bible says that God is Omniscient (all knowing, which encompasses his vast intelligence) and he is Omnipotent ...but it never says that he is Omnipresent....he does not need to be everywhere at once. Nothing happens that he is unaware of.

God knows all things, being able to know from the beginning how something will end....(Isaiah 46:10)....that is why he can allow the devil a relatively free hand to test out the human race because he can steer things in a new direction if he sees a need....like he did with the flood. Mankind were descending into a moral morass way too soon because of the intervention of the wicked angels and the violence and immorality that they were generating.......so he reset everything and started again with Noah and his family, eliminating all the bad influences from the past generation and starting over with a clean slate.
What good did God's reset do? I think you have constructed a straw man!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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An infinite unconditional being would not know what evil is, and therein couldn’t formulate a plan including it. Nor could it know a past or future.
You speak of God as someone impersonal to you. You also speak as though you don't understand God or are familiar with what happened im the beginning. God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. The knowledge of evil already existed. Elohim confirmed that:
" Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil ..." Gen. 3:22

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: Other translations use, “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery, destruction, troubles.
Perspective is important here. Evil is not some substance. It is either a consequence of sin, the act of sin itself and what follows which includes calmity, distress, affliction, misery, destructuon, troubles, and we can see these are various forms of God's punishments/ judgments.
So lets say evil is in that box, don't open it and it will stay there. You won't know what it is unless you open it and so it goes, people just have to open that box. Curiousity killed the cat, they say.
 
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Davy

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ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!

You (and many, many others), likely do not understand God's Word about the previous world when Satan was 'perfect in his ways' when God first created him. That was given in a parable in Ezekiel 28, but of course one would first have to learn what a parable or analogy or metaphor, or allegory is in the English language.

Since Genesis 1:2, we have been in a 2nd world earth age time. That is when God destroyed that old world because of Satan's rebellion against Him, and instead brought this present 2nd world earth age into existence. And you are not alone in Biblical ignorance of this event either, for a majority of pastors today still do not understand this.

In 2 Peter 3, he covered 3 world earth ages:
1. "the world that then was"
2. "the heavens and the earth, which are now"
3. "new heavens and a new earth"

We are in that 2nd one above, which is preserved unto God's consuming fire on the day when Jesus returns.

In Romans 8:18-25, Apostle Paul revealed that God placed this 2nd world earth age in "bondage of corruption", "subject to vanity". And that the creation groans and travails in pain. How do we explain this, because the majority believe God made this present world perfect?

But according to Apostle Paul, God placed this 2nd world earth age into vanity, in bondage of corruption. So is it?, is today's creation in a state of corruption? Yeah! Everything decays and dies today. Death is a major part of this present creation, even so much that most people cannot think of a time when there is no death!

We are brainwashed as a child by the nature programs on TV to think that today's creation is perfect, when it is not. Per Isaiah 11, the animals in God's future Kingdom will not act like they do today. The wolf will dwell with the lamb, it says.

How much of this earth today is uninhabitable? The seas and oceans cover about 70% of the earth's surface. Another portion is covered by desert regions, and another by high mountains covered in ice, and then the poles are uninhabitable also.

So Paul says the future glory of God's Kingdom cannot be compared to this present world.
 

-Phil

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You speak of God as someone impersonal to you. You also speak as though you don't understand God or are familiar with what happened im the beginning.
If you have any specific questions or would like clarification on anything shared please feel free to ask. This way we respectfully allow an opportunity for elaboration in the discourse vs assuming and making demeaning personal accusations.

God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. The knowledge of evil already existed. Elohim confirmed that:
" Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil ..." Gen. 3:22
“One of us” doesn’t refer to a plurality or multiplicity of Gods. There is only an infinite one. “One of us” refers to the divisive separative nature inherent in ‘knowing’ there is good and evil. When one ‘knows’ there is good & evil, one is tempted to employ this ‘knowledge’ to separate; us & them… exactly as has occurred here.

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

The instructions are very clear. Instead of settling for ‘knowing’ there is good & evil, and applying this ‘knowledge’ in an alienating personal manor, go instead to the tree of life.

Put another way, when the burn of judgement (the flaming sword) is felt in ‘knowing’ there is good & evil, rather than deny the ‘burn’ or discord felt, be in accordance with the flaming sword which points instead to the tree of life. Rather than judge & accuse, be the creator you truly are & and create the desired change within yourself & within your life… and therein, in your world.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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So He wanted the appreciation of good (I understand that) but it failed so He got Jesus to die for us on the cross as a better plan. That still means He was not exactly all-knowing as some say as He didn't know it would fail so He introduced Jesus to die on the cross for us. Thanks Aunty Jane, that you appreciate me asking difficult questions because I want other ideas that can be better than mine.
God doesn't change. God's plan to sacrifice His Son was part of the plan.
It was the greatest act of love on His part and the greatest act of evil of mankinds.
I can only worship a God who is sovereign (omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent). There would be many uncertainties with a lesser God who did not know everything. Faith would be filled with maybes and ifs. What kind of promises can be made unless you are absolutely certain of the outcome? God is absolutely certain about His plan and I can't believe in anything less.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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How is it glorious if only a FEW would enter the narrow gate of everlasting life? I'd rather God be not all-knowing and not all-intelligent than to be the one who would know that MANY would go to hell
God does not desire that any should perish, but it was the only way. Again, you can't force someone to love you and have a relationship with you, you must give them a choice. There is more value in a relationship where people choose to have one with you as opposed to making them your slaves, forcing them. We willingly choose to follow Jesus, we love Him, worship Him, know Him and know what He is not.
1/3 is the remnant that will be saved. Currently there is about that many, 2.7 billion Christians. So the word "few" just means a smaller percentage than those who will be lost - by their own choice. Our Father draws all men to Himself and many resist and reject Him. After a lifetime of ample opportunities given, He finally lets them go and grieves. He knew all along, not to be fair, He does not show favoritism. He stands at then door and knocks and some refuse to open it. Satan gets many and in a sense, that was his calling. He can do nothing without God's permission - go wrestle with that one! (See Job)
Byw, God grieving does not mean He didn't know what going to happen. Jesus knew that Lazarus died, but He still wept. He shared with their mourning and grief of His passing. He grieved when He destroyed the world the first time. Knowing you have to do something severe does not remove the pain. God has emotions. But God is a God of justice snd sin must be judged. A parent grieves when he has to punish his child, whether deprive him of somethimg or give him a spanking - oops ... we aren't supposed to advocate that! Well, that is what is wrong with kids today, they didn't get a whoopin.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!

So I just want to know if it's possible for God to be not exactly all-knowing or all-intelligent
Yes God is all knowing. Here's the thing with me though, somebody telling me that if the true God didn't look into the future to see what choice Adam was going to make, whether or not Adam would be obedient or not, that the fact God didn't look into the future to know what choice Adam would make is evidence of God not being all-knowing, I'm going to always disagree with that because someone making such statements is saying that God is ignorant of how he designed and created creation which would include all living intelligent beings such as angels and humans. What I mean by that is, because God created angels and humans to be able to make choices to be obedient to God or not, that doesn't mean God has to look into the future to see what choices they make. God designed and created both angels and humans to be able to make choices to be obedient to him or not, God doesn't have to look into the future to see what the results or implications would be if an angel or human makes a choice to be disobedient. God would know the results or implications of what ever choice an angel or human makes. He doesn't have to look into the future to know the results or implications of such a choice. So God knew the results, or implications of Adam making a choice to be obedient, he didn't have to look into the future to see what implications were of such a choice. God also knew the results or implications if Adam made the choice to be disobedient. God didn't have to look into the future to see what choice Adam would make to know the results of whatever choice he made. So someone trying to teach me that if God doesn't see every second of the future 24/7 that means God isn't all-knowing, I'll disagree.
 
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MatthewG

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Ahh, but how do we know that God didn't have foreknowledge that Creation would fall? Maybe this was the plan all along?

Y'know, a few 55 gallon drums of Snake-Away (available at a Lowe's or Home Depot near you) sprinkled around the periphery of the Garden, and Creation would not have fallen.
Lol. May have been an orangoutang.
 
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Nancy

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Yes God is all knowing. Here's the thing with me though, somebody telling me that if the true God didn't look into the future to see what choice Adam was going to make, whether or not Adam would be obedient or not, that the fact God didn't look into the future to know what choice Adam would make is evidence of God not being all-knowing, I'm going to always disagree with that because someone making such statements is saying that God is ignorant of how he designed and created creation which would include all living intelligent beings such as angels and humans. What I mean by that is, because God created angels and humans to be able to make choices to be obedient to God or not, that doesn't mean God has to look into the future to see what choices they make. God designed and created both angels and humans to be able to make choices to be obedient to him or not, God doesn't have to look into the future to see what the results or implications would be if an angel or human makes a choice to be disobedient. God would know the results or implications of what ever choice an angel or human makes. He doesn't have to look into the future to know the results or implications of such a choice. So God knew the results, or implications of Adam making a choice to be obedient, he didn't have to look into the future to see what implications were of such a choice. God also knew the results or implications if Adam made the choice to be disobedient. God didn't have to look into the future to see what choice Adam would make to know the results of whatever choice he made. So someone trying to teach me that if God doesn't see every second of the future 24/7 that means God isn't all-knowing, I'll disagree.
Agree. God orchestrates all things through His foreknowledge to His good, and ours, IMHO. I firmly believe in free will to choose to serve Him or not.