Definition of the “Rapture”:
I believe in the traditional meaning of the word “rapture”, which represents a pre, mid, or post tribulation event (being “caught up”) rather than a timeframe (pre-tribulation rapture) like you guys believe. Thus, I not am able to state that the “rapture” is a false doctrine, are you with me here so far Veteran? For it can’t represent a false doctrine, if the word merely denotes when (pre, mid, post) the event will occur, rather than exclusively representing a fixed pre-tribulation rapture as you guys claim.
If one does a Google search on the Internet on the phrase “post tribulation rapture” 81 pages of webpages comes up. That’s a lot of pages for a nonevent isn’t it Veteran? Wikipedia even devotes a webpage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Tribulation_Rapture) to this topic/event/doctrine. There are tons of books written about the “post tribulation rapture” topic/event/doctrine. Even most of the “pre-tribulation rapture” books mention the “post tribulation rapture” camp in their writings!
How about an online dictionary (see below)? All of the online dictionaries state the “rapture” as a doctrine! Not one of them claim the “rapture” to be a “false doctrine”. And not only that, the example listed below actually states the “rapture” will take place at the time of Christ’s return to earth (the Second Coming)! So excuse me Veteran, if I disagree with 3 or 4 guys (from this forum) definition of what the “rapture” is! What gives you guys the right?
rap·ture
[rap-cher] noun, verb -tured, -tur·ing.
noun
1.
ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy.
2.
Often, raptures. an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight.
3.
the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence.
4.
the Rapture, Theology . the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth.
I don’t know what else I can say to defend my position here Veteran, I believe that the preponderance of evidence is on my side on what the definition of the “rapture” is. I have cited eschatology books, Wikipedia, 81 website pages and even online dictionaries …what else can I say? I believe that you guys are wrong for trying to change the traditional meaning of the word “rapture” and have no justification for doing such a thing! And this is my thread, not yours Veteran, and I think I have the right to use the word “rapture” under it’s traditional definition, over some new definition that you guys are trying to establish! If you want to discuss the doctrine of the “caught up” without using the word “rapture” start your own thread! And if I participate in your thread, I will honor your definition of the word over the dictionaries definition of the word, ha, ha (how silly!).
But having said all of that, the “rapture” is a non-Biblical word (as you guys continually point out, ha, ha) so neither side can use scripture to support/prove their stances. So because of that, I still contend that it is silly to even continue the debate over the meaning of the word “rapture”. And besides all of that, it is even a moot issue, since I have repeatedly stated to you Veteran, that I am willing to stop using the term “rapture” (under one condition) in this thread for the phrase “caught up” or the word “gathering” if that will make you happy Veteran. I want you to be happy Veteran, ha, ha. Don’t you want to be happy? Why don’t we all agree to disagree on this one Veteran and move on? Fair enough?
“False Accusations” and “Presumptions”:
Thekingdomkeys: On the subject of “
false accusations”, “
presumptions” and …. let me start off by giving you kudos and credit for an excellent (civil discourse in Christ’s love) first posting in this thread, when discussing the meaning of the phrases “Day of Christ” and “Day of the Lord” (directly below):
Veteran: “The "day of Christ" phrase occurs 3 times in the New Testament (Philippians 1:10; 2:16, and 2 Thess.2:2). In all 3 cases it's about Christ's second coming and Millennium reign.
In the 2 Thess.2:2 example, the Greek word rendered "Christ" is actually the word 'kurios', which means 'lord'. In all 3 cases it is pointing to the event of the "day of the Lord" Paul and Peter preached in reference to the Old Testament prophets.
The "
day of the Lord" phrase occurs 5 times in the New Testament, and is referring to events to occur with Christ's second coming and Millennium reign. It is in reference to the OT Scripture "
day of the LORD" (KJV).
Thus, we are to go back into the Old Testament prophets to understand more of the details of the events to occur on the day of Christ's return and His Millennium reign, in order to more fully understand what Paul and Peter were talking about, for that's where they were pulling from.”
Thekingdomkeys: Your first post (directly above) was excellent Veteran!!! You proved you could debate in Christ’s love under civil discourse! You stated your position on the first 2 terms (“
Day of Christ” and “
Day of the Lord”), that you believed that both days represented the same “day” and the same “event” …the time of Jesus’ Second Coming. If your posts would have remained civil like your first one, we would not be having this discussion right now! But unfortunately, things changed after your first posting.
OK Veteran let me cite some of your “false accusations”, “presumptions” and …. and let’s let the folks of this forum be our judges. Fair enough? Additionally look at your “tone” of delivery and the disparaging verbiage …was it delivered in love? Where’s the love Veteran, where’s the love?
“False Accusations”:
Veteran: “Where have I called you names, or made false accusations?”
Thekingdomkeys: I’m glad that you have asked, shall we begin?
Thekingdomkeys: “what I would like to do in this thread at this time, is to throw out some terms ...some Bible phrases to see if we all agree or disagree that these terms coincide with the "rapture". And if we agree,
then I will add some more terms and so forth and so on,
until we have a list of terms related to the timing of the rapture.” (quotation from my first posting in this thread)
“OK, I'm going to throw out the
first two terms …the
Day of Christ and the
Day of the Lord” (quotation from my first posting in this thread)
“Let's see if we can
begin to paint a picture of the timing of the "rapture" through these “
Day of Christ” / “
Day of the Lord” verses. Most of the pre-trib rapture folks believe there are 2 “Days”, the first for the ‘rapture’ and the second for ‘Christ’s Second Coming’. Many of these people claim that the rapture is the “
Day of Christ” and the Second Coming (after the tribulation) is the “
Day of the Lord”. It is our job as Bible students, to determine if this is true or false.”
Veteran: “Wait just a minute.
No one can be just in pulling out a couple of phrases from God's Word and try
to isolate them from the rest”
Thekingdomkeys: Hello Veteran, I am not trying to "pull out a couple of phrases from God's Word and try to isolate them from the rest" as you have stated.
Veteran: “
Sure you did. No sense in denying in now, everyone seeing this thread has seen you already try to do just that.”
Thekingdomkeys: “I attempted to tell everyone that this (
these first 2 phrases)
would just be the start of this study in this thread. I said (in so many words) that
we would glean as much as we could out of those 2 phrases and then add new phrases to the mix, didn’t I? So I object to you stating that I am limiting this study to 2 phrases.
I was simply giving time for others to chime in on the first 2 phrases of this study before I added additional phrases.”
Veteran: “
As if trying to 'create' an unfounded distinction between those two phrases wasn't enough to show you're not really interested in Biblically covering the idea of a rapture? Really, who you trying to fool?” “Still... you're trying to deny your intent to isolate those two phrases? How could we as Christian brethren carry on a just Biblical discussion of the rapture subject under such a false pretense?”
Thekingdomkeys: Below you seem to be implying (accusing me) that I am a “
false prophet” and a “
deceiver” based on your definition of the word “rapture” and your presumption of what you believe my stance is on the doctrine of the “rapture”. This name calling has got to stop!
Veteran: “
That Matt.24 example is never going to be enough for the false prophets who intend to falsify His Word in order to deceive.”
Thekingdomkeys: “I would be careful on who you are calling "
false prophets" Veteran. If other Christians in this forum (or elsewhere) differ from your understanding of this doctrine and believe the opposite viewpoint that does not make them a "
false prophet".”
Veteran: “
That I am... very careful of. I don't throw it out unless I really... mean it, just so you know. Those behind the Pre-trib doctrines are indeed... false prophets. Want me to say that again for you?”
Being Presumptuous:
Thekingdomkeys: “Hello Veteran, I am not trying to "pull out a couple of phrases from God's Word and try to isolate them from the rest" as you have stated.” Below you presume that “
everyone seeing this thread” is in agreement with you!
Veteran: “Sure you did. No sense in denying in now,
everyone seeing this thread has seen you already try to do just that.”
Thekingdomkeys: “At this point in time
I don't even want to tell anyone my stance on when I believe the "rapture" will take place. I don't want to muddy up those waters at this time.” (quotation from my very first posting in this thread)
Veteran: “
And there's one Scripture you forgot... Rev 16:12-17”
Thekingdomkeys: Again you were being presumptuous, since I never stated that I was giving you and all inclusive list of the word “
thief”. In fact I stated just the opposite, that I have added the next phrase and you guys can now begin to introduce other “
thief” passages to the mix:
Thekingdomkeys: “I have also added the next phrase (“
thief”) to our painted picture as well. At this time,
we can now introduce other "thief" passages to the mix, as long as they are referring to the time of the "
Day" of His Coming.”
Thekingdomkeys: Below you are presuming that you know what Biblical stance I take on the doctrine of the “rapture”. You believe that I believe in a “pre-tribulation rapture” and you might be correct, but you are being presumptuous, since I have yet to state my stance on this particular doctrine!
Veteran: “
All those Scriptures agree on the same one-time event of Christ's return, and the gathering of His saints. It's like I said in my first post here. Christ coming "
as a thief"
is the same time as "
the day of the Lord"
events.”
“
Why does our Lord Jesus given that warning of His coming "
as a thief"
again in between those 6th and 7th vials? Simple. Because His coming and gathering of His Church still on earth at that 6th vial timing has not happened yet! In other words, no rapture yet, not even by the time of the 6th vial.”
Thekingdomkeys: More presumptions below Veteran.
Where have I stated one way or another that I thought that Matthew 24:29-31 isn’t enough to determine the “
Biblical order of His coming”? Again, this is my thread Veteran (not yours) and I should be given the liberty to decide how I want to attack the study of this doctrine!
Veteran: “
But just HOW MANY Scriptures proofs does one need to grasp the true Biblical order of His coming and our gathering? Why wouldn't the Matthew 24:29-31 verses be enough for a believer on Christ Jesus, since they are direct statements by our Lord Jesus Himself?”
Thekingdomkeys: More presumptions below without any evidence to back them up:
Veteran: “
You're slowly revealing to us just what persuasion your are of, and it does not appear to be Christ's coming and our gathering after the tribulation He directly stated in Matt.24:29-31!”
Veteran: “Who cares if folks call it the Rapture?" "Those who stand in God's Holy Writ care, which should include yourself if you claim to have believed on Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Do you claim Christ Jesus as The Saviour, and your Saviour?
If so, then why wouldn't you want to heed what He said in Matt.24:29-31 about the order of His coming and our gathering to Him instead of trying to play off of some fake semantics idea?”
Ground Rules:
Veteran: “What ground rules, rules according to what you set? Why should anyone here agree to that, since it could easily serve as a method to limit what the Scriptures state?”
Thekingdomkeys: That we agree to begin to operate this debate in the Spirit of Christ’s love (civil discourse) and drop the accusations, name calling and presumptions. In exchange, I will agree to stop using the terms “
rapture” and “
word study” in this debate. That we agree to allow me to walk through this study step by step, term by term, until we are able to paint a full picture of this endtime doctrine. All Biblical words and phrases will be introduced in due time. All scriptures pertaining to this doctrine will be discussed and all questions will be answered. Is that fair enough Veteran?
False Prophets and False Teachers:
Veteran: “the idea of a false prophet involves the idea of teaching too? Yes. The Greek even means a 'spurious teacher'. Might want to look up John 10 also where our Lord Jesus called those who are not real shepherds that care not about the sheep preach instead for money as a 'hireling'. The word hireling is about a wage-worker used in the preaching for money sense by Christ Jesus Himself.”
2 Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (KJV)
“So, the idea of a false prophet involves the idea of teaching too? Yes. The Greek even means a 'spurious teacher'. Might want to look up John 10 also where our Lord Jesus called those who are not real shepherds that care not about the sheep preach instead for money as a 'hireling'. The word hireling is about a wage-worker used in the preaching for money sense by Christ Jesus Himself.”
Thekingdomkeys: I stand down on this one Veteran, you have made your point with the passage above …I stand corrected. It does seem to state that the idea of “false prophet” also encompasses “false teachers” Good show!
Miscellaneous Stuff:
Veteran: “To get multiple quotes, all you do is hit the "Quote" button at the bottom of one's post, all the person's quotes are in the small text entry box at the bottom. Where you want to split ideas in one's post, use the"
Thekingdomkeys: Thanks for trying to help me out with my multiple quote problem (operator error, ha, ha), but as you can see above, the last part of your solution somehow got cut off? The split part of the multiple quotes is what I haven’t been able to figure out yet. But I think I might be able to figure it out. I shouldn’t click on the multiple quote button, but rather just click on the single quote button and then copy and paste some of the HTML characters to create the split quotes that you often use. I’ll have to play with it, but I’m always afraid that I will screw up my posting.
Veteran: “I already dissected them per Scripture, which you refused commenting.”
Thekingdomkeys: I have told you that I have no desire to get into this deep study (in any fashion, yours or mine) until we have agreed on and established the ground rules.
Bottomline:
Thekingdomkeys: Listen Veteran, I am not out to get you and I am pretty confident that you are not out to get me either. I really want to begin my deep study on this doctrine with all of you guys. All that I am asking is that we tone down our jargon and have a civil discourse on the topic. And all that I am asking is that you give me a little time and patience to paint a picture on this doctrine. I promise that I will not shirk any questions addressed to me and that I will answer all questions and look at all scriptures in due time. I simply desire to step through this doctrine one word/phrase at a time. Is that fair enough?
thekingdomkeys