Jim B
Well-Known Member
You are 110% wrong. If you think that Jesus is not fully God then you are not a Christian. Period.
Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?
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I have started to think that maybe a whole lot of people may not be Christian when @Wrangler told me he had heard a preacher say that the deity people do not have any real good fruit of the spirit. That would tell me that maybe they don't have spirit if they can't believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.
You are mistaken Jim, Real Christians teach the same things Jesus did, as well as obey him sir. Jesus stated very clearly that he worshipped and served Jehovah exclusively to satan who tried to get him to worship him. Jesus made God's name known to us sir Jn 17:6,26 and of course we his disciples make that name known to others as well so that they can have salvation Rom 10:13-15. By your comment I see you have chosen not to follow Jesus admonition, which of course is your choice, but I would really recommend you consider the consequences as if you reject Jesus, likely you will not be considered for salvation Jim.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I don't reject Jesus. That is sheer nonsense. I regard as Jesus as fully God. If you disagree then you need to read the Bible and ask God to open your mind to the truth.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Jim B can you give us a scripture where it states that Jesus is both fully God and man?
I cannot see how it is possible for an immortal God to become a mortal human, since he cannot become his own creation.
If Jesus was fully God, then as an immortal, he could not die....only if he was fully human (mortal) could he die the same death as Adam as a redemption for his debt.
In saying that Jesus was "god" in John 1:1, the Greek word "theos" does not mean what many assume that it means in English.
Strongs Concordance gives the primary definition of "theos" as .....
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities"......it does not refer only to Yahweh, but also to those who have divine nature or authority.
No one questions Christ's divine origins, but that doesn't make him "God" in the same sense that his Father is "God".
Never once did Jesus say that he was "God"....but he said that Yahweh called human judges in Israel, "gods" because they had his divine authority. (John 10:31-36)
What did Jesus call himself?
You don't? Do you believe Jehovah is God like Jesus said sir? You have indicated you believe Jesus is God. He never made such a claim, nor does any of his followers Jim.
JW teach many false doctrines, so the organization cannot be of God.
But there could be some saved people stuck in the group, who will be with Jesus in heaven.
Some other churches also teach false things. I try to avoid arguing with them, but sometimes you have to point out the absurdities they hold on to.
The fact this has been pointed out many times to them yet they do not change their mind, shows also they have not been granted repentance from God to know the truth. Arguing with them is not going to change them. But God can do it.
Hah, yes surely there is one right here, and more too.
Philippians 2
The Humbled and Exalted Christ
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.JW though must filter the scriptural words thru their doctrine in which the meaning of the words is twisted absurdly to agree what their doctrine will support, and it is quite absurdly funny what they can come up with doing that.
They prefer their teachings to what scripture teaches. the fact it must be so heavy handedly interpreted shows their understanding is contrived to suit themselves. So they may read a scripture, and then they go to their book to read what it means according to the JW teaching.
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It seems logical that a real Christian would only have to have the spirit. If you have the spirit then you are hooked to God. If you do not have the spirit. Then you are not hooked to God. Same as living by the spirit. It's what you are not what you do.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Okay, let's look into this...
In John 10:30, Jesus said, "The Father and I are one.” and in John 17:21, He said, " As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." And John wrote in 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I don't know how much more proof you need than these verses.
If you cannot see how it is possible for an immortal God to become a mortal human, then you think that somehow the God who created the entire universe, including humanity, can't create a mortal human? Really? What else, in your mind, can't God do?
Your writing "If Jesus was fully God, then as an immortal, he could not die....only if he was fully human (mortal) could he die the same death as Adam as a redemption for his debt" contradicts your thoughts. He became fully human and died the death of a mortal human. He was the ultimate sacrifice for sin; he paid the price for everyone's sin by His death. Then, He was resurrected to eternal life.
I always shudder when people write such nonsense as the Greek word "theos" in John 1:1 does not mean what many assume that it means in English. Are you a bona fide scholar of Koine Greek? Are your credentials so impeccable that you claim that virtually every Christian scholar disagrees with you? If so, what are they? I fully accept the scholarship that overwhelmingly translates John 1:1 as saying that Jesus was God. That fact that you have to resort to Strong's Concordance to prove your point shows the limits of your knowledge.
Here is what the Expositor's Bible Commentary has to say about John 1:1. Read it and you might just learn something...
1 "In the beginning" recalls the opening words of Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The expression does not refer to a particular moment of time but assumes a timeless eternity. "Word" (logos) has several meanings. Ordinarily it refers to a spoken word, with emphasis on the meaning conveyed. Logos, therefore, is an expression of personality in communication. Scripture also tells us that it is creative in its power: "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth" (Ps 33:6). To the Hebrew "the word of God" was the self-assertion of the divine personality; to the Greek the formula denoted the rational mind that ruled the universe. John is asserting that the "Word" is the source of all that is visible and antedates the totality of the material world.
The use of logos implies that John was endeavoring to bring out the full significance of the Incarnation to the Gentile world as well as to the Jewish people. While not adopting the Greek concept in its entirety, he indicates that Jesus had universal rather than local significance and that he spoke with ultimate authority. He was preexistent, involved in the act of creation, and therefore superior to all created beings. This presentation lifts Christ above the materialistic, pagan concept of deities just as the Incarnation brings the Hebrew concept of God into everyday life.
The preposition "with" in the phrase "the Word was with God" indicates both equality and distinction of identity along with association. The phrase can be rendered "face to face with." It therefore suggests personality and coexistence with the Creator, and yet is an expression of his creative being.
The three statements of v.1 bring out three different aspects of the nature of the Word. The first speaks of his preexistence, the second of his distinctiveness, and the third of his deity.
As in a relationship as in being born of the Spirit-born again, however Christ warns us to not follow false Christs and Peter with Paul warns us about false teachers, so the spirit you may feel could be a demonic friendly spirit. We are told to test the spirits by the word of God and see if they agree or not. But anyway, it is hopeless for the spiritually deceived unless God grants them repentance to know the truth, those warnings and tests are for those who are not deceived, to keep them from becoming deceived. They were written to the believing, saved church. God must also grant you to come to Christ, otherwise you are not going to come and be saved. John 6
God still holds all accountable for the deeds done in the body. Everyone will give an account of himself to God, which for Christians is Christ, they will come before Him, 2 Corinthians 5
And who are the 'deity' people? The regular type Christians who believe what Jesus says about Himself?, where He came from, and what scripture says, such as John 1, that Jesus was with God in the beginning and also that Jesus with God created everything? Good fruit of the Spirit is when people agree with scripture, and do not twist it. That shows the Holy Spirit is teaching and leading them to Christ, not away from Christ.
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [a]comprehend it.
John’s Witness: The True Light
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That[b] was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [f]is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
16 [g]And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
I'm not sure what you mean by testing the spirit. The only test I know is you either have it or you don't. Those who say Jesus is come in the flesh (that would be me) is of God. And every one who says Jesus did not come in the flesh (that would be you) is not of God. I wrote it down about walking in the spirit which is only one page long and you can read it here... www.carb-fat.com/spirit.html
Why dont you escape from the JW hold on you?
You can read scripture on your own without them guiding your thoughts. You do not need them to teach the truth.
In truth, it is impossible for anyone to be taught to know the Lord.
The Holy Spirit is the teacher that brings you to Christ, not church doctrines.
Hebrews 8 describes what God does, no man is used by God so that someone truly knows God, note v10-12
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Jesus also told some not to "tell anyone" about the acts of God that He did...but it is rather the rest of scripture that declares that Jesus (the Word) is God, saying from the beginning, "In the beginning God...", and that "All things were created through Him and for Him."
It is also written that "With the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you." Therefore, consider all of what is written, rather than just the parts acknowledged by your religion.
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No, that is not true, Jesus came in the flesh means he was born as a man, while still being God. Your issue is you can not accept God the Son could be born as baby, and grow up like a man. However that was part of the plan, he took on flesh and blood on purpose.
Your view is an absurdity. Your just making stuff up, against the scriptures.
Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Without this becoming incarnated as flesh and blood, HE could not have accomplished the work of salvation that He did for His people.
See your very nature of your Christ is showing all how false he is, that he is different from the Christ of God in the scriptures. By that you can know that you are in a cult.
Chris could only die, if HE was born as a man. This is fundamental for our salvation. Thus your faith is null and void as it is not in Christ but a false construct.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
...and it is hard to correct a nice, well-meaning man.
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