Heresy or error?

[Johann]

Continue your studies, my friend, but try not to decide the context you believe you have encountered is all that there is. Ask of God and keep on asking! How close can we come to God?

Why was King David allowed to have wives and concubines and still be described as the "apple of His eye" and a man "after God's own heart"?

Mt 19:4	And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mt 19:5	And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mt 19:6	Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

How many wives and love affairs and divorces are we allowed to have and still be or become the apple of His eye and a man after His own heart?

J.

 

[Johann]

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J.

J.

 

[Johann]

I have not quit when I simply wanted to quit. God is always there even when we cannot see Him or hear Him. Can I impart to you or to anyone what I receive from God and how I receive it? Not unless God is in it AND the door to potential recipient is opened by that recipient. That is what I believe. Bottoming out and surrendering again and again as needed has worked for me. because, I believe, I serve and very loving and merciful God... but if I quit, really quit the trouble is real and if I should do that, quit, and be in that state of "quit" when my time runs out...?

And there is pride in being "too humble"

 

[Johann]

I have not quit when I simply wanted to quit.

Who's talking about quitting? Or reaching a certain plateau and no room for growth?

 

[Johann]

The modern day equivalent of: no, we want a king over us like the rest of the world and we don’t want a prophet to tell us what God has said or has shown him is…saying, no we won’t listen and still want these doctrines, we don’t care if the result will be bad for us and our children…

 

[Johann]

How close can we come to God?

1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Gal_4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Php_2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jn_3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

How close? Very close, although I might not "feel" close.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You guys and gals have superseded the scriptures, since you don't need them, I will abide by the doctrines and scriptures.

You have just driven home the point of my last post, as I just said the modern day equivalent of rejecting a man God has given something to that is for us, is this that you said above: you want the bad doctrines/king over you.

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And again, you drive home my point. You want to keep the bad doctrine/idols of your father. (Unless you agree with what has been said, which of course you don’t.)

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

And again, you highlight my point and epis point. (Unless you agree that the doctrine of: man is saved by the power/grace of God though imputed righteousness is the doctrine spoken of in your above quoted verse as a doctrine of devils. If you agree that the correct doctrine is that man is saved by the power/grace of God through trust (not imputed righteousness) then you would not be arguing at all.

Heb_13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

And again, this verse even SAYS it - it is good that the heart of man/the inner man be established with POWER/GRACE and NOT with meats offered to an idol which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

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Agreed!
If we don’t know the Bible doctrine that says a man is saved by the power of God through trust, we will be led astray by the man made doctrine that says a man is saved by the power of God through imputed righteousness. If you don’t know the correct, you will be led astray by the false.

Abraham believed/trusted God and God counted him as to have done the right thing to have trusted Him.
The sinner praying trusted God that He forgives sinners and he walked away justified, which is to say that God counted Him to have done the right thing to have trusted and believed God about that.

These two examples show that God sees a man to have done the right/righteous thing to have trusted Him. There is nothing imputed or imparted there. The men actually DID trust/believe God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Which is correct?

Saved by grace through faith
OR
saved by grace through imputed righteousness?

We can go on from there in discussion but the foundation must be kept to build on. If the foundation is Christ and Christ says, didn’t I tell you if you trust/believe Me you will not die, keep the foundation, EVEN if to keep it requires you to tear down the high places of your fathers.

5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Blood is enough to get started. Being covered by His Blood is so worthless that we have to claim with bad doctrines that we are things we aren’t? That is to trample the Blood underfoot as worthless.

It is equally as bad to go in the opposite ditch though, so finding the balance is of crucial importance.

Johann fights against men saying they are holy when they aren’t. That is good. But he overcorrects and finds himself in the opposite ditch.

 

[Johann]

Which is correct?

Saved by grace through faith
OR
saved by grace through imputed righteousness?

We can go on from there in discussion but the foundation must be kept to build on. If the foundation is Christ and Christ says, didn’t I tell you if you trust/believe Me you will not die, keep the foundation, EVEN if to keep it requires you to tear down the high places of your fathers.

5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Saved by grace, of course, and who the heck are "my fathers?" I have only one/echad Father and one Lord Christ Jesus, sealed with one Holy Spirit.
Watch your tone and words if you want to enter into discussion with me.

 

[David H.]

What you are saying is that we are not like God! I agree, but is not becoming more like God to be a goal for us?

That is why I prefer the word saints here instead of Holy. A Saint is anything lower than God. For man to become more like God is to become a saint. That term and its true meaning was Robbed from the church with the reformation teaching that all believers are saints.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Saved by grace, of course, and who the heck are "my fathers?" I have only one/echad Father and one Lord Christ Jesus, sealed with one Holy Spirit.
Watch your tone and words if you want to enter into discussion with me.

My tone is even and calm. You are hearing something that isn’t there.

Our fathers are the men whose bad doctrines/idols we follow. The men we call our church fathers, whether it be Luther or another. Paul said he was a spiritual father.

So it looks like you agree now that imputed righteousness is bad doctrine? If you now do, you say, our leaders/fathers have led us astray. So we must rebuild.

 

[Johann]

The Blood is enough to get started. Being covered by His Blood is so worthless that we have to claim with bad doctrines that we are things we aren’t? That is to trample the Blood underfoot as worthless.

It is equally as bad to go in the opposite ditch though, so finding the balance is of crucial importance.

Johann fights against men saying they are holy when they aren’t. That is good. But he overcorrects and finds himself in the opposite ditch.

Yeah, and what "ditch" might that be? Sinless perfection has taken this Forum by force, correct? Epi and most of the prominent members, yes?

 

[amadeus]

The door is open for this recipient, proceed @amadeus

You are presuming of course that God will fill my mouth or my fingertips with what He has for you or some other readers here. He might do so at times and I know that He has in the past, but I also am only a vessel to be used as I am formed and as I am directed. He is the Potter and I am at best only the clay. I do not form or direct myself in all the ways of God. When I do misstep, He, being a merciful and longsuffering God, may let me surge ahead holding my own reins, but then again, dependent on the circumstances, I may also need to be rebuked and/or chastised. Jesus is our Head... or He should be!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, and what "ditch" might that be? Sinless perfection has taken this Forum by force, correct? Epi and most of the prominent members, yes?

God is high and lofty and He IS sinless perfection.
If one were to walk in Gods Spirit, (rather than just being led by His Spirit) he would be walking in Gods sinless perfection, not his own. This would make the man sinless while he was walking there since there is no sin in Gods Spirit. It would never and will never be the man walking in his own holiness, there is only one holy, God.

I do not think even the apostles always walked in the Spirit. Otherwise, as epi has said, John would not have bothered to say in Revelation, I was in the Spirit…

 

[Johann]

That is why I prefer the word saints here instead of Holy. A Saint is anything lower than God. For man to become more like God is to become a saint. That term and its true meaning was Robbed from the church with the reformation teaching that all believers are saints.

You are in error.

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94 Verses About Saints from 23 Books
Deuteronomy 33:2
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.

Deuteronomy 33:3
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words.

Samuel-1 2:9
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Chronicles-2 6:41
Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

Job 5:1
Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?

Job 15:15
Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Psalms 16:3
[But] to the saints that [are] in the earth, and [to] the excellent, in whom [is] all my delight.

Psalms 30:4
Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Psalms 31:23
O love the LORD, all ye his saints: [for] the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psalms 34:9
O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for [there is] no want to them that fear him.

Psalms 37:28
For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalms 50:5
Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psalms 52:9
I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done [it]: and I will wait on thy name; for [it is] good before thy saints.

Psalms 79:2
The dead bodies of thy servants have they given [to be] meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.

Psalms 85:8
I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

Psalms 89:5
And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psalms 89:7
God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him.

Psalms 97:10
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 116:15
Precious in the sight of the LORD [is] the death of his saints.

Psalms 132:9
Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.

Psalms 132:16
I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

Psalms 145:10
All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalms 148:14
He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; [even] of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalms 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.

Psalms 149:5
Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

Psalms 149:9
To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Proverbs 2:8
He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Daniel 7:21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 7:27
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Hosea 11:12
Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.

Zecharia 14:5
And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Acts 9:13
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Acts 9:32
And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Acts 9:41
And he gave her [his] hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

Romans 12:13
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Romans 15:25
But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Romans 15:31
That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which [I have] for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Romans 16:2
That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Romans 16:15
Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

Corinthians-1 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Corinthians-1 6:1
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

Corinthians-1 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Corinthians-1 14:33
For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Corinthians-1 16:1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Corinthians-1 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Corinthians-2 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Corinthians-2 8:4
Praying us with much entreaty that we would receive the gift, and [take upon us] the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

Corinthians-2 9:1
For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

Corinthians-2 9:12
For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

Corinthians-2 13:13
All the saints salute you.

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:15
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 5:3
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

 

[amadeus]

Dangerous thing to "try" and empty your mind.
As I have said, how do you know you are being "led" since the sarx can also do the same, and who is at war with our spirit?

Yes, trying that can also lead us to disaster for that reason we are to pay attention to what Jesus told us in the way of asking for help:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

We must never stop leaning on Jesus and asking for help even when we may "think" we have it all down pat.

 

[amadeus]

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And there is pride in being "too humble"

Not in real humilty! Again this can be a matter of communication or the lack thereof between men sometimes when they really believe almost the same thing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, trying that can also lead us to disaster for that reason we are to pay attention to what Jesus told us in the way of asking for help:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

We must never stop leaning on Jesus and asking for help even when we may "think" we have it all down pat.

I understood what you meant John. Trying to empty your mind of all your opinions and clamoring so you can receive not from your own. We’ve all had enough of our own to the point of nauseousness. We want to know the mind of Christ.