Heresy or error?

[Mr E]

I have read every book I ever found by Tozer. He has helped and encouraged me very much. And I have heard this recording too. I listened to it again from the point where you had it paused, but it doesn’t seem like you even listened to it… Tozer literally SAYS he had only met a few men that had that “something different.“ He doesn’t himself claim it. So even Tozer disagrees with you. UNLESS I am seriously NOT understanding you.

I read 'The Best of Tozer' - a compilation of some of his works, and enjoyed it very much. Being familiar with him, one day I had an appointment with a patient who shared his last name-- and sure enough.... I got to meet one of his grandsons.

I mean..... how many 'Tozer's does one meet? I had to ask. I started-- 'Pardon me for asking, but would you be........?

He laughed. He's always delighted when someone makes the connection. It means they have a connection.

 

[stormymonday]

Context, definition, and grammar. Three basic components of good hermeneutics. Grammar being the most disregarded because it's more difficult to apply. Then when it does give evidence to believe 'otherwise' - we should!

This is why I say the saints that return with Christ are ANGELS and not resurrected and raptured believers who are unequipped to do battle.

The noun translated saints (Gr. ἄγιος, Gtr. hagios) in these scriptures means "the holy ones" or "the sanctified ones" and is often translated "saint" or "saints". It is an adjective being used without a noun, and is translated "saints" referring to people (Matthew 27:52; Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; 15:25-26; Ephesians 3:8; 4:12; Philippians 1:1; 4:21).

"Saints" refers to angels in 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Jude 1:14).

"The holy one" refers to Jesus in Mark 1:24; Acts 3:14.

When used as an adjective with a noun it is always translated "holy". In that way it's used of men (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; 2 Peter 3:2) - of angels at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26), of Jesus (Acts 4:27; 4:30), - and of the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8; 13:11; Luke 4:1; Acts 2:4).

The word translated saints in Zechariah 14:5 is the plural of the Hebrew word qādôsh - Strongs 6918), which occurs 116 times in the Old Testament. It is an adjective which means "holy", and is translated "holy" (65x), "holy one" (39x), and "saint" (12x) in the KJV. It is used in a similar manner to "hagios", with or without another noun with it, and essentially also means "the holy (...)"; again the missing word depends upon the context.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I read 'The Best of Tozer' - a compilation of some of his works, and enjoyed it very much. Being familiar with him, one day I had an appointment with a patient who shared his last name-- and sure enough.... I got to meet one of his grandsons.

Well how bout that!

 

[Mr E]

Well how bout that!

Your familiarity with him, tells me much about you. That's the connection his grandson recognized.

I often quote Tozer, not word for word, rather thought for thought....

God doesn’t work through us because we’re flawless; rather, He works through us in spite of our imperfections.

Another way of saying it is-- "God draws straight lines with crooked sticks."

 

[Mr E]

How about this one? It was pressed upon me....

God’s Kingdom isn’t divided into areas of important people and areas of little people. In God’s sight, everyone’s needful.

 

[Johann]

How about this one? It was pressed upon me....

God’s Kingdom isn’t divided into areas of important people and areas of little people. In God’s sight, everyone’s needful.

How about this

 

[David H.]

Am I being too picky to ask you to expand this?

Not at all. As I wrote to Cady and Zoe, God's love is being perfected in us. The More we submit to God, the more we become vessels of God's love flowing from us. We learn to obey Jesus new commandment, to Love one another as He loved us. A saint is marked by the Agape love that motivates their actions, not self glory, or some suicidal dementia. So they will give their testimony (Martyria) based on Agape Love as their motive... to spare the faithful. For example: have you read the Martyrdom of Polycarp? Look at his motives when you read it as it is motivated by a perfected love in Him. Now, Not all of those in the church are called to this extreme of a testimony, but some are. We all, who submit to the will of God will have God's love perfected in us as we grow, and as that love is perfected, we grow in holiness. We all will have a time when we are going to give our testimony, but if it is not motivated by Agape Love it is nothing as Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 13..... this is why this chapter is right smack dab in the middle of his discussion on the gifts of the Spirit (Chapters 12 and 14). It is easy to condemn, say Luther, for his errors, but it is another thing to embrace him for what he did and why he did what he did. Yes he had errors, and that is what this discussion is about, but he also took a stand in love and left an indelible testimony in the church. It is easy for some here to condemn us as well, But what I see is a few individuals motivated by God's love willing to take a stand against an error they see in the church of our day, and are doing so out of love for the faithful, and a desire to serve God, not for our own glory, but that the church to walk in the power of the Spirit.

By God is Holy, and we are growing in holiness, I am saying God is Love, and his love is being perfected in us, and a true saint is motivated by Godly Love.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

 

[Johann]

Not at all. As I wrote to Cady and Zoe, God's love is being perfected in us. The More we submit to God, the more we become vessels of God's love flowing from us. We learn to obey Jesus new commandment, to Love one another as He loved us. A saint is marked by the Agape love that motivates their actions, not self glory, or some suicidal dementia. So they will give their testimony (Martyria) based on Agape Love as their motive... to spare the faithful. For example: have you read the Martyrdom of Polycarp? Look at his motives when you read it as it is motivated by a perfected love in Him. Now, Not all of those in the church are called to this extreme of a testimony, but some are. We all, who submit to the will of God will have God's love perfected in us as we grow, and as that love is perfected, we grow in holiness. We all will have a time when we are going to give our testimony, but if it is not motivated by Agape Love it is nothing as Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 13..... this is why this chapter is right smack dab in the middle of his discussion on the gifts of the Spirit (Chapters 12 and 14). It is easy to condemn, say Luther, for his errors, but it is another thing to embrace him for what he did and why he did what he did. Yes he had errors, and that is what this discussion is about, but he also took a stand in love and left an indelible testimony in the church. It is easy for some here to condemn us as well, But what I see is a few individuals motivated by God's love willing to take a stand against an error they see in the church of our day, and are doing so out of love for the faithful, and a desire to serve God, not for our own glory, but that the church to walk in the power of the Spirit.

By God is Holy, and we are growing in holiness, I am saying God is Love, and his love is being perfected in us, and a true saint is motivated by Godly Love.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Just heard a sermon from Alistair on....


2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Powerful.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How about this one? It was pressed upon me....

God’s Kingdom isn’t divided into areas of important people and areas of little people. In God’s sight, everyone’s needful.

The parts of the body we think are less important we give the MORE honor to. If one part of the body suffers all parts suffer. Be humble, give more honor to others than yourself.

At the same time, you don’t abuse a prophet. In fact, if you accept a prophet in the name of a prophet you get a prophets reward. And yes, I know, Epi doesn’t call himself that - I do. That’s because I wouldn’t know what else to call someone who has seen the problem and the solution, who other men scoff at and harass when I can plainly see he is right.

The men who harass him and scoff at him remind me of the brother and sister who murmured against Moses and said, psh, who is Moses, hasn’t God spoken to us too?
No, I’m not saying Epi is Moses. Moses wasn’t a music snob.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not at all. As I wrote to Cady and Zoe, God's love is being perfected in us. The More we submit to God, the more we become vessels of God's love flowing from us. We learn to obey Jesus new commandment, to Love one another as He loved us. A saint is marked by the Agape love that motivates their actions, not self glory, or some suicidal dementia. So they will give their testimony (Martyria) based on Agape Love as their motive... to spare the faithful. For example: have you read the Martyrdom of Polycarp? Look at his motives when you read it as it is motivated by a perfected love in Him. Now, Not all of those in the church are called to this extreme of a testimony, but some are. We all, who submit to the will of God will have God's love perfected in us as we grow, and as that love is perfected, we grow in holiness. We all will have a time when we are going to give our testimony, but if it is not motivated by Agape Love it is nothing as Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 13..... this is why this chapter is right smack dab in the middle of his discussion on the gifts of the Spirit (Chapters 12 and 14). It is easy to condemn, say Luther, for his errors, but it is another thing to embrace him for what he did and why he did what he did. Yes he had errors, and that is what this discussion is about, but he also took a stand in love and left an indelible testimony in the church. It is easy for some here to condemn us as well, But what I see is a few individuals motivated by God's love willing to take a stand against an error they see in the church of our day, and are doing so out of love for the faithful, and a desire to serve God, not for our own glory, but that the church to walk in the power of the Spirit.

By God is Holy, and we are growing in holiness, I am saying God is Love, and his love is being perfected in us, and a true saint is motivated by Godly Love.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Oh no…I do not agree about Luther. I read some books about him and I read some things he wrote later in his life. He encouraged burning mens houses down. He started out loving the Jews and wanting them to know Jesus and ended hating them (and Catholics, and Anabaptists and nontrinitarian) and saying they deserved no mercy, not even the kindness afforded an animal. That’s absolutely NOTHING like our Lord.
And in an attempt to tame his flesh, he literally whipped himself, which shows NO understanding of Paul and no understanding of putting no confidence in your own strength or praying for what you lack.
No man who heard from God would advocate and encourage burning down homes of ANYONE. That’s how the man ended, not how he began. He didn’t take a stand in love. He took a stand in hatred of any who disagreed with him.

“Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly…”

And if wisdom is shown to be right by it’s results….

I disagreed with some other stuff you wrote but not as much as I disagreed with you about Luther.

 

[stormymonday]

Oh no…I do not agree about Luther. I read a book about him and I read some things he wrote later in his life. He encouraged burning mens houses down. He started out loving the Jews and wanting them to know Jesus and ended hating them (and Catholics, and Anabaptists and nontrinitarian) and saying they deserved no mercy, not even the kindness afforded an animal. That’s absolutely NOTHING like our Lord.
And in an attempt to tame his flesh, he literally whipped himself, which shows NO understanding of Paul and no understanding of putting no confidence in your own strength or praying for what you lack.
No man who heard from God would advocate and encourage burning down homes of ANYONE. That’s how the man ended, not how he began. He didn’t take a stand in love. He took a stand in hatred of any who disagreed with him.
And if wisdom is shown to be right by it’s results….

Luther was like Calvin. Murder was part of their theology as they both murdered close to 100 people each. I can't stand either one.

 

[Mr E]

At the same time, you don’t abuse a prophet. In fact, if you accept a prophet in the name of a prophet you get a prophets reward. And yes, I know, Epi doesn’t call himself that - I do. That’s because I wouldn’t know what else to call someone who has seen the problem and the solution, who other men scoff at and harass when I can plainly see he is right.

A prophet now, is he? So glad you clarified ‘not like Moses.’

No, I’m not saying Epi is Moses.

Maybe like Ellen White, or Edgar Cayce? You should be careful about diminishing him. All narcissists have notoriously fragile egos. He might be on a higher path than Moses, who wandered all those years and never made it to the Promised Land.

Hierarchy of prophets aside, if you told me he was a gymnast, I’d want to see a few backflips.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A prophet now, is he? So glad you clarified ‘not like Moses.’

I think he is, yes. I’ve looked and looked for any other man, or woman, who teaches what he does and it appears to me that it has originated with him. I’ve found many men who were almost there (like Tozer) in understanding it. They could say what we lacked but they never quite got to WHY we lacked and were dying and what went wrong, because of the doctrines. The doctrines jammed them up.

Maybe like Ellen White, or Edgar Cayce? You should be careful about diminishing him. All narcissists have notoriously fragile egos. He might be on a higher path than Moses, who wandered all those years and never made it to the Promised Land.

I grew up in a family full of narcissists. And the worst kind of narcissists, covert ones. I marvel all the time about how I did not go crazy and how God showed me how to be free of it and emotionally healthy. This man is not a narcissist. And, in fact, you appear as the one with a fragile ego, holding some sort of grudge that he dared at some point to not like your music, a friends music or some sort of music you like, by your music snob descriptor.
And, one more “in fact,” covert narcissists always give themselves away by telling you, in their condemnations, all about themselves and, quite often, about their plans. They steal the goodness of others and project their badness onto those whose virtues they steal. Of course, they don’t REALLY steal them, they just like others to think they are good and the one they steal from is bad. They even make the person with virtues they covet to think they are very bad sometimes When they aren’t. And they fool others too.

Hierarchy of prophets aside, if you told me he was a gymnast, I’d want to see a few backflips.

I’m sure he could do 50 and you would not see that he had.

 

[Mr E]

And, in fact, you appear as the one with a fragile ego, holding some sort of grudge that he dared at some point to not like your music, a friends music or some sort of music you like, by your music snob descriptor.

You’ll have to refresh my recollection or recant your accusation. Where did I ever refer to him as a music snob?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You’ll have to refresh my recollection or recant your accusation. Where did I ever refer to him as a music snob?

If you did not say it, I apologize. I thought it was you, could have been someone else.
It was in someone’s post who said something like…don’t get me wrong, I’m sure Epi is probably a pretty nice guy, But…
I thought it was your post. It could have been posted by one of the other guys who keeps harassing him.

 

[Mr E]

If you did not say it, I apologize. I thought it was you, could have been someone else.
It was in someone’s post who said something like…don’t get me wrong, I’m sure Epi is probably a pretty nice guy, But…
I thought it was your post. It could have been posted by one of the other guys who keeps harassing him.

Oh I did suggest that he’s likely a nice guy. I said I do like him, in fact— but I never called him a music snob.
I won’t lose sleep over your mischaracterization. (you might not be the best judge of character)

* edited to add- btw criticism is not the same as harassment. His constant whining about criticism is what marks him as a narcissist. You should recognize this.

Apology accepted.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh I did suggest that he’s likely a nice guy. I said I do like him, in fact— but I never called him a music snob.
I won’t lose sleep over your mischaracterization. (you might not be the best judge of character)

* edited to add- btw criticism is not the same as harassment. His constant whining about criticism is what marks him as a narcissist. You should recognize this.

Apology accepted.

We definitely see completely different things. I don’t see him to be constantly whining. I see a man who you and others follow into his every thread and disparage him. I don’t see him following any of you into threads you start. Someone else said music snob? Okay. But you are the one whining about how awful he treats you, not him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

you might not be the best judge of character

Ditto.

 

[David H.]

Oh no…I do not agree about Luther. I read some books about him and I read some things he wrote later in his life. He encouraged burning mens houses down. He started out loving the Jews and wanting them to know Jesus and ended hating them (and Catholics, and Anabaptists and nontrinitarian) and saying they deserved no mercy, not even the kindness afforded an animal. That’s absolutely NOTHING like our Lord.
And in an attempt to tame his flesh, he literally whipped himself, which shows NO understanding of Paul and no understanding of putting no confidence in your own strength or praying for what you lack.
No man who heard from God would advocate and encourage burning down homes of ANYONE. That’s how the man ended, not how he began. He didn’t take a stand in love. He took a stand in hatred of any who disagreed with him.

“Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly…”

And if wisdom is shown to be right by it’s results….

I disagreed with some other stuff you wrote but not as much as I disagreed with you about Luther.

You are entitled to your opinion, but for me I have made peace with my protestant past. Luther lived in a different time than we do... I try to judge him by the context of the times he lived in, just like the Catholic church, and fundamentalism, and Pentecostalism etc. Each have their good and their bad. Luther and his antisemitism led directly to the justification of Nazi's killing the Jews, I Know that first hand in fact But the Papacy was also guilty, as were many Calvinists etc. The Mistake made by Luther we are discussing here is throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater.... Let us not make that same mistake as we discuss Luther either, or for that matter any of the men that have impacted the church in our day. This is what the pursuit of the Unity of the Spirit involves.

God bless.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I try to judge him by the context of the times he lived in

You will know them by their fruit.