Heresy or error?

[Nancy]

I do hear you…and i think I’d probably readily agree with you if I didn’t see all around me the exact same mistakes that Israel kept making. I see an almost exact copy in so many things, like…”your leaders have led you astray.“ And if someone has received a down payment of the Spirit, which wasn’t given to the Jews like to us, then my mind thinks, well then, I guess more will be expected of us since more has been given to us?
On the other hand, just as not everyone who says they’re a Jew is a true Jew according to God, and not every Christian is circumcised. And how can I tell the difference? I think it’s like Epi said in his last podcast - there is being in some error and then there is doing great harm and causing division that leaves some lost on the outskirts in danger of being eaten by the lion that seeks to devour. That’s the dividing line, isn’t it, between those who I might plead with, instruct, bear with and give up my life for and those I’m to have nothing to do with? And I can freely share what He has given me and shown me, but…if I fail to discern the body after I’ve been given more, and I’m like Aaron and Miriam instead, refusing to…well…I’m still working on that.

At some point, at some point of maturity, at some point of being given more than others, don’t I become more responsible and become my younger brothers keeper rather than just letting him be beaten down and abused and stuffed with leaven and maybe even eaten? Like…oh well, at least I’m eating well in the drought, at least its going okay for me, spiritually speaking. At least I’m not starving. I’m telling you, those verses about eating in 1 cor 11 pertain to this, not literal food, and also the being weak and some even dying aren’t because we await some latter rain - it’s because those who have been given more and are maturer now aren’t stepping up because…well, still working on that part too but…partly because we desire physical comfort and sleep rather than giving up our life for our brother. And that’s going to become what little you have will be taken from you.

Still working on the covering the head in that passage too, because it means something far more than a cloth on a head of a particular gender when there is no more male and female with us and when we are to no longer know each other according to the flesh but rather the Spirit.



There’s something in what you’ve said that I can’t agree with. It sounds like saying….God just hasn’t watered us for a while. But if that were the the case, why would all those churches be given the messages they’re given.

"Still working on the covering the head in that passage too, because it means something far more than a cloth on a head of a particular gender when there is no more male and female with us and when we are to no longer know each other according to the flesh but rather the Spirit."

I wonder if the head covering was intended more for a "wife" rather than just a woman but then, it goes on to talk about actual hair so...back to square one!

Also, how do angels relate to any of it?

"10 For this reason a woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels."

 

[David H.]

You will know them by their fruit.

If Luther did not do what he did we would still be under the Nicolaitan Papacy. America as a republic probably would not exist, and we would be living in the dark ages when it comes to Spiritual liberty. The Protestant work ethic helped to build this country to be a beacon of Liberty.... And this all started with Luther, So Yes, You will know them by their fruit. WE would not be able to have this discussion if it were not for Luther.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How are you being led by the Spirit, @amadeus can't "rightly answer" and the mind is a battlefield.
Ever looked upon a man with lust?
Both you and I have committed murder by slinging mud at each other, the tongue, a little member NO man can tame, agree?

So you might be "weaned" of fleshly desires but not the tongue, yes?

I didn’t catch this until a second reading of the thread. I literally have never been mad at you, Johann. You have said some awful things to me in the past but I do not ever recall meeting you before maybe a year ago at most, and it’s been longer than that since I’ve got mad at/murdered anyone. I will speak honestly with someone if I think they need to step away or if I think they need to hear about how badly they are acting, and sometimes I inject some humor if I feel someone is being too rough and needs to ease up, and I think some may take my matter of fact ness as anger. But it’s going to be 2 years soon here since God put my flesh down and I kept thinking it would come back and get the better of me at some point but it hasn’t. I do speak forthrightly though and I can tell people sometimes think my intention is mean but that’s not been in my heart toward you. Now if you had met me two years ago, completely different story. And most especially three years ago, I murdered every day, even many times a day. I was completely ruled by my flesh and emotions. I didn’t often let it fly like you do but that’s just because I was better at hiding it, so when you let fly, at least you’re doing it openly, which makes you more honest about your anger than I ever used to be. I was one of those women who would insist, when asked, that I wasn’t mad but inside, I was planning someone’s funeral.
Even tonight, someone was being passive aggressive and gaslighting me and I was firm with them but no angry emotion accompanied my speech. It just doesn’t any more. He really will calm our flesh if we ask and trust.

 

[Nancy]

Lol. That’s why I said “almost.”

Ahaha, I remember actually asking God for even more "opportunities" to show and grow my faith...even once to the point that I would exhibit every single fruit of the Spirit I've learned to be very careful for what I ask Him for, lol.

 

[CadyandZoe]

By Saying a saint is less than God, I am saying a saint first and foremost is submitted to God fully. A saint is a term that is applied to those who are servants of God.... God is Holy, we grow in holiness and godliness by our submission and surrender of our will to the will of God by yielding to the work of the spirit in us. We are His workmanship (Eph. 2:10). That way we cannot boast about our works, But rather give glory to God for his work in us. God's Love is perfected in us (1 John 4:12)


Tozer helped me to form and articulate the views I am presenting here. He Spoke about the saints more than any modern writer. I Agree with you, he is not familiar with Tozer at all.


This is how reactionary religion causes the opposite extreme. "Catholic Church Bad, therefore all Catholic teaching bad" Then they tie things like distinguishing between the faithful and the saints out as Catholic Dogma when it was not meant to be done. For 1500 years the church as we knew it (flawed as it was) distinguished between the saints and the faithful.... it Got corrupted into the veneration and paying of indulgences to the saints, which no true saint wants in this life, nor in death, So in reacting to this, The reformers through the baby out with the dirty bathwater. It is a pride thing if you ask me to claim all believers are saints. It creates complacency, and a lack of desire to mature Spiritually, and creates Spiritual blindness.

I agree with what you say about a saint, but the word "saint" itself doesn't carry all that meaning. The word "saint" simply means "called out one" and applies also to those whom God called out of Egypt. As such, the Hebrew people who came out of Egypt and their descendants have by name, what believers in Christ have in truth.

God called the Hebrews out of Egypt to be his holy ones, and so they are. And not only them but also their progeny. As such, the Bible calls them "saints" or "holy ones." But among those whom God has called, he has also blessed with the work of his Holy Spirit and these are fully committed and fully submitted to God. These are "saints", not only by name but also in truth.

Thus Jesus says, "many are called but few are chosen." In that context, I think I can safely paraphrase his statement this way, "many are saints but few of those are children of God."

So I agree with you. Within the New Testament context, a saint in truth, is a person in whom God has poured out his spirit, loyal to Jesus Christ and having the gifts of the spirit such as patience, kindness, self-control and etc.

For this reason, I am constantly mindful, as I study the scriptures, to be sure which connotation of "saint" the author intends.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If Luther did not do what he did we would still be under the Nicolaitan Papacy.

possibly still under the then grossly visibly corrupted RCC leadership. Probably not. There have always been a remnant, EVEN in the RCC, whenever selfish and self seeking men take maniacally uninhibited control. It happens in every place that the flesh of men rule over the men because satan can so easily manipulate them THROUGH that flesh. It doesn’t happen just where there is a large gathering. It could even happen in this very forum if vigilance were not kept. It happens in the workplace, in the family, in the home. It happens in governments.
The tyranny of the flesh and satans adroitness in manipulating it is in every corner of the world. It’s become so bad recently that it’s driving men to insanity who can’t see what’s going on. I don’t know why it’s cranking up recently, or if it will settle back down, but since I’m not aware of it EVER happening worldwide, in every single country, I suspect it won’t. It’s not here a little, there a little. It began with a trickle here or there that seemed to die down, an ebb and flow but It appears to now be a more confident blanket campaign. How did I get here? Sorry.

America as a republic probably would not exist, and we would be living in the dark ages when it comes to Spiritual liberty. The Protestant work ethic helped to build this country to be a beacon of Liberty.... And this all started with Luther, So Yes, You will know them by their fruit. WE would not be able to have this discussion if it were not for Luther.

I would be more apt to say God works ALL things to the good of us who are called and who love Him than I would be to attribute so much to a fairly emotionally distraught man whose flesh, in bitter acrimony, controlled him. But I guess we all need a hero.

 

[David H.]

The word "saint" simply means "called out one" and applies also to those whom God called out of Egypt.

The Word saints refers to those set apart from the whole and consecrated. In the OT the Levites were referred to as saints, the Rest of the Hebrew People as the faithful. For example, Hosea 11:12 States: Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints. A saint is someone set apart by God, By divine choosing, so I would say Many are called to be saints, few are chosen by God.

 

[David H.]

I would be more apt to say God works ALL things to the good of us who are called and who love Him than I would be to attribute so much to a fairly emotionally distraught man whose flesh, in bitter acrimony, controlled him. But I guess we all need a hero.

You ever read Luther's writings apart from the 95 theses? Like I said, He is no hero to me as his teaching led directly to the justification of the Holocaust, But I do believe that God used him.

possibly still under the then grossly visibly corrupted RCC leadership. Probably not. There have always been a remnant, EVEN in the RCC, whenever selfish and self seeking men take maniacally uninhibited control. It happens in every place that the flesh of men rule over the men because satan can so easily manipulate them THROUGH that flesh. It doesn’t happen just where there is a large gathering. It could even happen in this very forum if vigilance were not kept. It happens in the workplace, in the family, in the home. It happens in governments.
The tyranny of the flesh and satans adroitness in manipulating it is in every corner of the world. It’s become so bad recently that it’s driving men to insanity who can’t see what’s going on. I don’t know why it’s cranking up recently, or if it will settle back down, but since I’m not aware of it EVER happening worldwide, in every single country, I suspect it won’t. It’s not here a little, there a little. It began with a trickle here or there that seemed to die down, an ebb and flow but It appears to now be a more confident blanket campaign. How did I get here? Sorry.

You asked me to be honest with you, so from what I read above in your comment, there seems to be a "bitterness" of men in general in your thinking? (See underlined and bold in your comment) Maybe I am just reading something into your comment that is not there, and that you refer to mankind and not men? I ask, because some woman have been hurt by men in the past and have a hard time reconciling with men in general. I am also asking because on another forum I have been dealing with the Gender wars that the government is foisting on the people to keep them separated and fighting each other, and to see if this is influencing your comment????

Me personally I have no desire to dictate to you personally what your opinion of Luther should be. I Just think God used him in the time he lived to accomplish his ends. The 1500's were a far different time than the day we are living in and murder by the church was the norm, not the exception.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay. We will all just stay calm and everything will be alright.

Nope, no bitterness of men. I mean, I don’t particularly like ones who act like Luther, but even them I wish to come to God.

I just said I would be more apt to attribute the good to God, rather than to Luther, that’s just how I look at it, so that’s what I shared. And if Luther had been a woman I guess my post would have looked more like bitterness of women to you, but he was not a she. Today he might be…lol

 

[David H.]

Okay. We will all just stay calm and everything will be alright.

Nope, no bitterness of men. I mean, I don’t particularly like ones who act like Luther, but even them I wish to come to God.

I just said I would be more apt to attribute the good to God, rather than to Luther, that’s just how I look at it, so that’s what I shared. And if Luther had been a woman I guess my post would have looked more like bitterness of women to you, but he was not a she. Today he might be…lol

Ok Got you. You see why I read that into your comment? Should have said "It happens in every place that the flesh of men rule over the men because satan can so easily manipulate US THROUGH that flesh."

My fault for getting nitpicky about grammar.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I agree with what you say about a saint, but the word "saint" itself doesn't carry all that meaning. The word "saint" simply means "called out one" and applies also to those whom God called out of Egypt. As such, the Hebrew people who came out of Egypt and their descendants have by name, what believers in Christ have in truth.

God called the Hebrews out of Egypt to be his holy ones, and so they are. And not only them but also their progeny. As such, the Bible calls them "saints" or "holy ones." But among those whom God has called, he has also blessed with the work of his Holy Spirit and these are fully committed and fully submitted to God. These are "saints", not only by name but also in truth.

Thus Jesus says, "many are called but few are chosen." In that context, I think I can safely paraphrase his statement this way, "many are saints but few of those are children of God."

So I agree with you. Within the New Testament context, a saint in truth, is a person in whom God has poured out his spirit, loyal to Jesus Christ and having the gifts of the spirit such as patience, kindness, self-control and etc.

For this reason, I am constantly mindful, as I study the scriptures, to be sure which connotation of "saint" the author intends.

Revelation 17:14 …and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
I looked up the Greek words just now.
called, invited
chosen, elect,
trustworthy, believing

Don’t know if it will help the conversation at all.

(I still think Gideon and the choosing of men for war show these 3 groups but I don’t firmly have it.)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ok Got you. You see why I read that into your comment? Should have said "It happens in every place that the flesh of men rule over the men because satan can so easily manipulate US THROUGH that flesh."

My fault for getting nitpicky about grammar.

Oh…not you too with the pronouns!
Satan can so easily manipulate he she they them I you us and it through the flesh. Happy now?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Revelation 17:14 …and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
I looked up the Greek words just now.
called, invited
chosen, elect,
trustworthy, believing

Don’t know if it will help the conversation at all.

(I still think Gideon and the choosing of men for war show these 3 groups but I don’t firmly have it.)

Interesting find. I need to think about this.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Interesting find. I need to think about this.

Well, think about this one too then, because I’m too old now to think any more,lol
Revelation 22:11
11 Let the one who does wrong still do wrong, and the one who is filthy still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous still practice righteousness, and the one who is holy still keep himself holy.”
Wicked - we know their fate. But it leaves three more.
Filthy
Righteous
Holy

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well, think about this one too then, because I’m too old now to think any more,lol
Revelation 22:11
11 Let the one who does wrong still do wrong, and the one who is filthy still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous still practice righteousness, and the one who is holy still keep himself holy.”
Wicked - we know their fate. But it leaves three more.
Filthy
Righteous
Holy

Interesting that you should mention this verse. In my view, John is predicting a time when society will be so polarized that no middle ground will exist. In the past, the middle ground was an area of compromise or possible agreement between two extreme positions, especially political ones, during which genuine and productive dialogue might take place. Today, the middle ground is absent. (IMHO)

 

[David H.]

Oh…not you too with the pronouns!
Satan can so easily manipulate he she they them I you us and it through the flesh. Happy now?

So What pronouns do you use? (Sarcasm intended)

 

[Nancy]

Ok Got you. You see why I read that into your comment? Should have said "It happens in every place that the flesh of men rule over the men because satan can so easily manipulate US THROUGH that flesh."

My fault for getting nitpicky about grammar.

"My fault for getting nitpicky about grammar."

...and gender.
...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So What pronouns do you use? (Sarcasm intended)

Oh I don’t use pronouns. But my adjectives are gorgeous and genius. If you don’t use them, since that’s how I see myself, you’re being violent towards me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why you laughin‘ at me Nancy…? Call me by my chosen adjectives or I’ll get you fired and cancelled and I’ll give everyone your address.

 

[Nancy]

Why you laughin‘ at me Nancy…? Call me by my chosen adjectives or I’ll get you fired and cancelled and I’ll give everyone your address.

If I did call you by "your" chosen adjectives well, I'd...what ARE your "chosen" adjectives??!!