Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Kermos]

Yes, I agree Jesus chose his disciples. The whole context is very narrow. NEVER does it say, imply that persons were selected to salvation.

In your very first paragraph, with the Word of God proclaimed right in front of you, you tell a leavened lie (Galatians 5:7-9) by your thoughts of "NEVER does it say, imply that persons were selected to salvation" because as the post to which you quoted shows Lord Jesus makes it entirely clear that His choosing disciples includes salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

See that Jesus mentions "world" in John 15:19 and Jesus explains that the "world" is opposed to the Kingdom of God in the intervening sayings between the above quotations of King Jesus with Jesus saying to all Jesus Christ's disciples in all time "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you" (John 15:19); therefore, Lord Jesus chooses we disciples of Jesus out of the world that is under the wrath of God then King Jesus passionately places us under God's loving care within the Kingdom of God.

Thus says the LORD that the LORD exclusively selects persons unto salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Rightglory]

In your very first paragraph, with the Word of God proclaimed right in front of you, you tell a leavened lie (Galatians 5:7-9) by your thoughts of "NEVER does it say, imply that persons were selected to salvation" because as the post to which you quoted shows Lord Jesus makes it entirely clear that His choosing disciples includes salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The whole chapter is directed exclusively to the disciples. It does not include salvation, no where dies it say this in all of scripture.
Even in John 17, which is Christ's pastoral prayer there are four things He prays for. vs 1-5 He is praying for Himself. vs 6-19 He is praying for His disciples, vs20-23 prays for the Church, vs 24-26 he is praying for the world. Never does He mention imparting salvation.

See that Jesus mentions "world" in John 15:19 and Jesus explains that the "world" is opposed to the Kingdom of God in the intervening sayings between the above quotations of King Jesus with Jesus saying to all Jesus Christ's disciples in all time "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you" (John 15:19); therefore, Lord Jesus chooses we disciples of Jesus out of the world that is under the wrath of God then King Jesus passionately places us under God's loving care within the Kingdom of God
Thus says the LORD that the LORD exclusively selects persons unto salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

You will always get hung up when you cherry pick vs that you need to hopefully prove your view. However in this specific context, Judas was selected by Jesus, He called Him out of this world to be a disciple.
The other disciples state elsewhere that he was one of us. He did miracles with the other disciples, yet he was not saved.
Also, God, through the Holy Spirit is calling all men, not some, but all men to repentance. This call does not make all men saved. He desires all would come to salvation, but by His Sovereign will He created man with a free will. A will that can reject Him at any time, even as a believer. Simply believing at some point does not make one saved. Nothing in scripture makes this claim. God will not violate man's will. Nor will He force His will against man's will.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Whatever concept or understanding of creation, purpose of man in relationship to God you have has very little to do with scripture. You are presenting more of a Deist view of creation, or a fatalistic meaning to life than scriptural.

 

[BeyondET]

See your conveyance that you are free (autonomous) of God regarding food according to your words:

QUOTE="BeyondET, post: 1463214, member: 21212"]
How clearer can I get, yes I have free will to shop what ever food I want in the grocery store, freely decide what kind of clothes to wear.

You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
[/QUOTE]

First got to separate the will in the human body. Half the life in or on the body operates independently from the rest of the life in the human body.

Humans are walking ecosystems 50% human 50% alien.

And of the 50% that is human, life doesn't end at death suddenly. Muscle stem cells can live up to 17 days after the death of the human. So when speaking about the will in man its complicated.

Here's an example of your will, your stomach tells you when your hungry and you willingly eat to satisfy your hunger. Your understanding of will is far from complete.

 

[brightfame52]

Mans will never is or has been free from the Sovereign Purpose of God. Whatever God has purposed, the wills of men will conform unto the accomplishment of His Purpose. That started with Adam

 

[Rightglory]

Mans will never is or has been free from the Sovereign Purpose of God. Whatever God has purposed, the wills of men will conform unto the accomplishment of His Purpose. That started with Adam

His Sovereign purpose was to create what we know as a human being, (man) and created him in His Image. God's purpose was to create an being that would love Him, glorify Him, commune with Him and live in harmony with Him.
If that is what God wants and desires, He could not have created a robot by which He can manipulate, force this creature to do His bidding. God desires man to freely love Him. Love is free, is not bound in any way.
Your whole theory is opposite of scripture. The Holy Spirit, influences men to honor and glorify and obey but it is man that chooses whether he will or will not. God cannot compel man to do His will as that makes man unaccountable and would not be love.
Same goes for Satan, Satan cannot compel you to sin. He does entice, influence you to do so, but you do the sinning. That is free will at work.
It is actually a war between God and Satan, in this life to have have you in respective folds.

 

[brightfame52]

His Sovereign purpose was to create what we know as a human being, (man) and created him in His Image. God's purpose was to create an being that would love Him, glorify Him, commune with Him and live in harmony with Him.
If that is what God wants and desires, He could not have created a robot by which He can manipulate, force this creature to do His bidding. God desires man to freely love Him. Love is free, is not bound in any way.
Your whole theory is opposite of scripture. The Holy Spirit, influences men to honor and glorify and obey but it is man that chooses whether he will or will not. God cannot compel man to do His will as that makes man unaccountable and would not be love.
Same goes for Satan, Satan cannot compel you to sin. He does entice, influence you to do so, but you do the sinning. That is free will at work.
It is actually a war between God and Satan, in this life to have have you in respective folds.

Again, mans will is never free from Gods sovereign purpose, everything works according to His purpose, even the wills of men and devils Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things[mens will included] after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Rightglory]

Again, mans will is never free from Gods sovereign purpose, everything works according to His purpose, even the wills of men and devils Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things[mens will included] after the counsel of his own will:

Based on scripture that would be impossible. God wanted union with all men. He is calling all men to repentance. Yet, many men reject Him. No place in scripture does it say God rejected any human being from coming to Him. There would be no hell if God compelled man's will to believe and then hold him in bondage against his will. God will not override the will of man, Love cannot be given if it is bound. It is a very simple understanding.
Yet you make God out to be a monster, a dictator, a slave master. God loves all of mankind even those that hate Him. Which is why you aare commanded to love all men, including your enemies. Why would God tell us that if He controls man's will? Wouldn't He be doing that already for us, in your view?
You can try to twist scripture to support your view, but scripture says the opposite of your view.

 

[brightfame52]

Based on scripture that would be impossible. God wanted union with all men. He is calling all men to repentance. Yet, many men reject Him. No place in scripture does it say God rejected any human being from coming to Him. There would be no hell if God compelled man's will to believe and then hold him in bondage against his will. God will not override the will of man, Love cannot be given if it is bound. It is a very simple understanding.
Yet you make God out to be a monster, a dictator, a slave master. God loves all of mankind even those that hate Him. Which is why you aare commanded to love all men, including your enemies. Why would God tell us that if He controls man's will? Wouldn't He be doing that already for us, in your view?
You can try to twist scripture to support your view, but scripture says the opposite of your view.

Again men are never free from the Sovereignty of God, not even satan is free from Gods controlling purpose.

 

[brightfame52]

Although Adams will was never free from Gods sovereign control, Adam was accountable before God, and he willfully sinned in disobedience, but at the same time, his sin of disobedience was predetermined by God, he could have not disobeyed because God had predetermined that he would all according to His Divine Purpose.

 

[Kermos]

First got to separate the will in the human body. Half the life in or on the body operates independently from the rest of the life in the human body.

Humans are walking ecosystems 50% human 50% alien.

And of the 50% that is human, life doesn't end at death suddenly. Muscle stem cells can live up to 17 days after the death of the human. So when speaking about the will in man its complicated.

Here's an example of your will, your stomach tells you when your hungry and you willingly eat to satisfy your hunger. Your understanding of will is far from complete.

You have departed from the Word of God such as "Humans are walking ecosystems 50% human 50% alien" (the word of BeyondET), so your word is non-authoritative and deception.

The Word of God defines how a human will operates, and I cite scripture below that is authoritative about human will.

How clearer can I get, yes I have free will to shop what ever food I want in the grocery store, freely decide what kind of clothes to wear.

You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

The whole chapter is directed exclusively to the disciples. It does not include salvation, no where dies it say this in all of scripture.

I am Lord Jesus Christ's disciple, and these wonderful words of Lord Jesus are declared to all His disciples in all time. You jusr excluded yourself from being chosen as Christ's disciple according to your words.

In your very first paragraph, with the Word of God proclaimed right in front of you, you persisted in telling your leavened lie (Galatians 5:7-9) by your thoughts of "It does not include salvation, no where dies it say this in all of scripture" because as the post to which you quoted shows Lord Jesus makes it entirely clear that His choosing disciples includes salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

See that Jesus mentions "world" in John 15:19 and Jesus explains that the "world" is opposed to the Kingdom of God in the intervening sayings between the above quotations of King Jesus with Jesus saying to all Jesus Christ's disciples in all time "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you" (John 15:19); therefore, Lord Jesus chooses we disciples of Jesus out of the world that is under the wrath of God then King Jesus passionately places us under God's loving care within the Kingdom of God.

Thus says the LORD that the LORD exclusively selects persons unto salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[BeyondET]

.

You have departed from the Word of God such as "Humans are walking ecosystems 50% human 50% alien" (the word of BeyondET), so your word is non-authoritative and deception.

The Word of God defines how a human will operates, and I cite scripture below that is authoritative about human will.



You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Your living in a fantasy world if you think there are no other living organisms in and on you.

That life mounts to half of the life that makes up you.

 

[Rightglory]

Again, mans will is never free from Gods sovereign purpose, everything works according to His purpose, even the wills of men and devils Eph 1:11

It is not free from His purpose, which was to create a being that could freely love. That works according to His Purpose. But God did not create robots. You have to explain how your version permits God to judge mankind for their deeds, if it is God who controls those deeds.
How is that possible?

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things[mens will included] after the counsel of his own will:

But the council of His will was to create a creature that had an independent will from that of God. Why would you even use the word will when in your view man has no will. He is just a tool, a tool to be manipulated by God. How is that love, either love from God, or from man.

 

[Rightglory]

Again men are never free from the Sovereignty of God, not even satan is free from Gods controlling purpose.

By your view, and quite obviously, you have no understanding of the ramifications of your theory.
Regarding man. We are not free from His Sovereignty. However in His Sovereign will He created us to be free will creatures. We can freely either love or hate our creator. God is not forcing us to do either.

Regarding Satan, He also is under the Sovereignty of God, but Satan, a former good angel, rebelled, was free to use his will to reject God, actually warred against Him thereby getting ousted from heaven. He still has that same will which is trying to get man to choose Him over God. Otherwise you have God actually doing the work of Satan. How is that possible. Why have such a creature? Just say God forces some to sin, That way man and Satan are not responsible for their actions because they are controlled by God.
Sounds like a modern man who wants to make up his own rules whereby he is never responsible, only others are responsible.
You need to restudy your theory in the light of scripture since it is diametrically opposite of scripture.

In light of your view, maybe you aught to explain just how it balances with God's judgement? Explain just how or why scriptures speak of God's judgement.

 

[brightfame52]

It is not free from His purpose, which was to create a being that could freely love. That works according to His Purpose. But God did not create robots. You have to explain how your version permits God to judge mankind for their deeds, if it is God who controls those deeds.
How is that possible?

But the council of His will was to create a creature that had an independent will from that of God. Why would you even use the word will when in your view man has no will. He is just a tool, a tool to be manipulated by God. How is that love, either love from God, or from man.

So that settles that,man isnt free from God !

 

[brightfame52]

By your view, and quite obviously, you have no understanding of the ramifications of your theory.
Regarding man. We are not free from His Sovereignty. However in His Sovereign will He created us to be free will creatures. We can freely either love or hate our creator. God is not forcing us to do either.

Regarding Satan, He also is under the Sovereignty of God, but Satan, a former good angel, rebelled, was free to use his will to reject God, actually warred against Him thereby getting ousted from heaven. He still has that same will which is trying to get man to choose Him over God. Otherwise you have God actually doing the work of Satan. How is that possible. Why have such a creature? Just say God forces some to sin, That way man and Satan are not responsible for their actions because they are controlled by God.
Sounds like a modern man who wants to make up his own rules whereby he is never responsible, only others are responsible.
You need to restudy your theory in the light of scripture since it is diametrically opposite of scripture.

In light of your view, maybe you aught to explain just how it balances with God's judgement? Explain just how or why scriptures speak of God's judgement.

Man is never free from Gods control and yet man is accountable for their evil, even though God decreed mans evil, Adam was accountable for his sin yet he sinned because God predetermined he sin

 

[Rightglory]

Although Adams will was never free from Gods sovereign control, Adam was accountable before God, and he willfully sinned in disobedience, but at the same time, his sin of disobedience was predetermined by God, he could have not disobeyed because God had predetermined that he would all according to His Divine Purpose.

You are confused to say the least. Just how do you come to that conclusion. Man has no will, what he does will be held accountable. The you say he willingly sinned in disobedient. You need to figure out the meaning of words here. You cannot have it both ways.

Then you say this sin was predetermined by God. Which makes God a sinner. God does not predetermine our sinning. He has foreknowledge of our sinning, since He knows all things, But knowledge does not mean God does what He knows. This is why God can use the evil in this world for His purpose. The best example is Judas. God knew he would reject Him, so God used Him. That was foretold in the OT already.
But that does not mean God did the sin.
By His foreknowledge God did work out a plan to reverse that sin and judgement against Adam. He would send Jesus, the Son of God, to remedy Adam's sin.
I can assure you that God did not cause Adam to sin. God could not have held him accountable. Your understanding of scripture and theology is bad, but your logic is even worse.

 

[brightfame52]

You are confused to say the least. Just how do you come to that conclusion. Man has no will, what he does will be held accountable. The you say he willingly sinned in disobedient. You need to figure out the meaning of words here. You cannot have it both ways.

Then you say this sin was predetermined by God. Which makes God a sinner. God does not predetermine our sinning. He has foreknowledge of our sinning, since He knows all things, But knowledge does not mean God does what He knows. This is why God can use the evil in this world for His purpose. The best example is Judas. God knew he would reject Him, so God used Him. That was foretold in the OT already.
But that does not mean God did the sin.
By His foreknowledge God did work out a plan to reverse that sin and judgement against Adam. He would send Jesus, the Son of God, to remedy Adam's sin.
I can assure you that God did not cause Adam to sin. God could not have held him accountable. Your understanding of scripture and theology is bad, but your logic is even worse.

Because Adam sinned according to the Eternal Purpose of Christ. Christ in Gods Purpose was slain already before Adam was created 1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev 13 8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So Adam sinned in accord with the redemptive purpose in Christ and he was accountable, even though he must sin according to Gods purpose. Adam could not have chosen not to sin, that would have been contrary to Gods redemptive purpose in Christ.

 

[Rightglory]

I am Lord Jesus Christ's disciple, and these wonderful words of Lord Jesus are declared to all His disciples in all time. You jusr excluded yourself from being chosen as Christ's disciple according to your words.

So, all believers are but by choice. This context is NOT about future believers, but speaking directly to twelve men ONLY.

In your very first paragraph, with the Word of God proclaimed right in front of you, you persisted in telling your leavened lie (Galatians 5:7-9) by your thoughts of "It does not include salvation, no where dies it say this in all of scripture" because as the post to which you quoted shows Lord Jesus makes it entirely clear that His choosing disciples includes salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

You can keep saying this but scripture if read without biased blinders categorically disagrees with your view. there is absolutely no, mention directly or indirectly that salvation is included.

See that Jesus mentions "world" in John 15:19 and Jesus explains that the "world" is opposed to the Kingdom of God in the intervening sayings between the above quotations of King Jesus with Jesus saying to all Jesus Christ's disciples in all time "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you" (John 15:19); therefore, Lord Jesus chooses we disciples of Jesus out of the world that is under the wrath of God then King Jesus passionately places us under God's loving care within the Kingdom of God.

See above, you must be reading a different book.

Thus says the LORD that the LORD exclusively selects persons unto salvation with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So you say, but scripture does not. Only your adding and twisting of scripture seemingly might say what you need it to say.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Original post shows nothing about scripture, Just a very confused individual who is trying to establish an whole new view out of thin air. A view that has never seen the light of day for 2000 years. There is something to say about history, but for the Original Church to the present time, all have held the view that man was created with a will, free and independent from God. Otherwise scripture would become just a fable, a nice narrative of some self aggrandizing person.

 

[Rightglory]

So that settles that,man isnt free from Go

Man is free from God's will. It is a separate will from that of God's will. That man having a will separate from God is NOT saying man is free from His Sovereignty when His sovereignty established that man has a separate will.
You do have trouble understanding scripture and theology. This is why your view is so nonsensical because you really don't understand the meaning of words.