Revelation from God by Holy Spirit, and support from the scriptures is the only way anyone has the truth.
Why?
- Thread starter Justinian 1
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Revelation from God by Holy Spirit, and support from the scriptures is the only way anyone has the truth.
He didn't, that is a misunderstanding based on a errant translation of the scriptures, mainly the Hebrew words alam and olam and the Greek words aion and aionios.
God has purposed from the very beginning to be all and in all by reconciling all things through Jesus Christ His Son. The result is every knee will bow and every tongue proclaim allegiance to Him.
While every knee will bow and every tongue confess, it will not all be in allegiance! Much of it will be in abject surrender to the truth, but without gain of heaven, just as a defeated army of old would have to bow to the overcoming king.
No, but I believe in the universal reconciliation of all things through Christ Jesus.
Tis not what God said through Isaiah.
Isaiah 45:23-25 (KJV)
[sup]23[/sup]I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
[sup]24[/sup]Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
[sup]25[/sup]In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Where does it say the unrighteous shall glorify God, and not be ashamed?
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Justinian - Jiggy and George MacDonald appear to have similar views on universal reconciliation - MacDonald wasn't quite a universalist. For me, I have a sneaky suspicion that God is all about mercy and love and powerful transformation - He is going to blow people away with His redemption of the Body.
I think all Christians should hope and pray for universal reconciliation. During the Judgment, I want to be crying 'mercy', not 'burn them all!' Unfortunately, many Christians I have talked with seem to revel in the idea of sinners 'getting what the deserve!' and hoping that God will avenge those wronged by the sinner, instead of praying for healing. Conversely, it seems to me that Jesus was not joking around about 'loving our enemies' or forgiveness.
If I die believing in Hell and there is not a Hell, it will be my fear that held me back from accepting God's total reconciliation and it will not be the first time I underestimated God. All I can say is, their is nothing wrong with hoping for mercy and God's power to be revealed in a 'Surprised by Joy' sort of way.
Like I have said over and over, the OT is a character assassination of the Father, based on the point of view of the writers - which is the whole point!! God introduced Himself (I AM) and His sovereignty, humanity received the message and proceeded to respond in the most monstrous, nationalistic, twisted and unfaithful manner possible. In the NT, God responded to His own sovereignty, righteousness, and Goodness in the most perfect way - Jesus.
God was willing to walk with us through all the pain we have put over selves through in order to redeem us. He has been willing to speak the language of human, so that He could reach us in our shame and attempts to hide from Him.
The story of humanity is not our attempts to deal with an angry, bi-polar, borderline God - as he sometimes appears in the OT - it is about God in His infinite Goodness and Mercy, reaching out to the paranoid, angry and lost child of humanity, who constantly perceives His love as anger and fights His guidance and consistent, faithful love.
I trust that He will continue to walk with us and guide us and redeem us until the end.
I think all Christians should hope and pray for universal reconciliation. During the Judgment, I want to be crying 'mercy', not 'burn them all!' Unfortunately, many Christians I have talked with seem to revel in the idea of sinners 'getting what the deserve!' and hoping that God will avenge those wronged by the sinner, instead of praying for healing. Conversely, it seems to me that Jesus was not joking around about 'loving our enemies' or forgiveness.
If I die believing in Hell and there is not a Hell, it will be my fear that held me back from accepting God's total reconciliation and it will not be the first time I underestimated God. All I can say is, their is nothing wrong with hoping for mercy and God's power to be revealed in a 'Surprised by Joy' sort of way.
Like I have said over and over, the OT is a character assassination of the Father, based on the point of view of the writers - which is the whole point!! God introduced Himself (I AM) and His sovereignty, humanity received the message and proceeded to respond in the most monstrous, nationalistic, twisted and unfaithful manner possible. In the NT, God responded to His own sovereignty, righteousness, and Goodness in the most perfect way - Jesus.
God was willing to walk with us through all the pain we have put over selves through in order to redeem us. He has been willing to speak the language of human, so that He could reach us in our shame and attempts to hide from Him.
The story of humanity is not our attempts to deal with an angry, bi-polar, borderline God - as he sometimes appears in the OT - it is about God in His infinite Goodness and Mercy, reaching out to the paranoid, angry and lost child of humanity, who constantly perceives His love as anger and fights His guidance and consistent, faithful love.
I trust that He will continue to walk with us and guide us and redeem us until the end.
This is my sentiment as well. You have a wonderful way of explaining this, Aspen, thank you.
Steve
It is a very strange mind that will say that God presents Himself as angry and bi-polar. Amen to the fact that He is all good and all love and will respond to repentance with limitless mercy by His infinitel grace.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I totally agree! But, I try not to judge the writers of the OT for thinking this way, I would have done the same thing if I were in their shoes.......it is apart of God's plan to re-introduce Himself to us, regardless of our disturbed, superstitious, and paranoid response to His love.
I am sure glad that Jesus taught us how to properly respond to an all loving, all powerful, all knowing, ever present God. His Holy Spirit is leading us to redemption - soon we will be able to reflect God's perfect love once more, perfect love.
The weirdest part is that even though I am not a desert nomad, living before Christ lived, I still find myself wanting to respond to God in the same way they did! I get lost in the desert for long periods of time; experience famine and drought when I avoid God; try and run from Him and His will, like Jonah - the OT is the story of humanity; our fall, God's forgiveness; our attempt to hide from Him, God's faithfulness; and our road to redemption; God's GRACE
23 I have sworn by my own name; I have spoken the truth, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess allegiance to me. ”24 The people will declare, “The Lord is the source of all my righteousness and strength.” And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.
Isaiah 45:23-24 (NLT)
In verse 23 the Hebrew word shaba translated as "shall swear" means to swear, take an oath or will confess and in the Greek reads will confess and give praise to God.
Excellent post Aspen, beautifully worded.
Sorry, jiggyfly, but those who do not love God or acknowledge the Saviour will not be kneeling in love and respect, but will be kneeling in defeat, and will be finally acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord and King of all, just as a defeated army kneels to the commander of the army that has just conquered them.
Do you have any scripture to support your opinion? Look at what Paul says in Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:11.
Look at the Greek word exomologeō used in the text.
1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
b to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
There is no indication of any force used, it is not an coerced confession.
exomologeō
ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o
From G1537 and G3670; to acknowledge or (by implication of assent) agree fully: - confess, profess, promise.
There is no adverb associated with the word unless you put it there. Sinners will acquienxce to the Lordship of Christ, but it will be in abject defeat and even horror that they have no eternal home with Him. Those who reject Him will mourn and weep and wail and gnash their teeth in the Lake of Fire of Judgment.
ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o
From G1537 and G3670; to acknowledge or (by implication of assent) agree fully: - confess, profess, promise.
There is no adverb associated with the word unless you put it there. Sinners will acquienxce to the Lordship of Christ, but it will be in abject defeat and even horror that they have no eternal home with Him. Those who reject Him will mourn and weep and wail and gnash their teeth in the Lake of Fire of Judgment.
The Greek word pas is used in the text, meaning every, everyone, all, the whole. I can find no premise in the scriptures discussed to indicate or support your belief that it happens out of abject defeat or horror for some and is different for others. As far as an adverb goes, can you point out the adverb your referring to?
Just imagine a God-hater finding himself standing in front of the Great White Throne. On his knees, speechless! No fear?
Do you see an adverb such as 'joyfully' describing the final admission on the lips of one forced to declare Jesus King of kings and Lord of lords, knowing that his name is not found in the book of Life and that he has a place in the Lake of Fire?
Can you show me where a person is happy to stand before God and be judged and told that Jesus doesn't know him? People won't necessarily find it an easy thing to bow before the One who will send them to eternal destruction.
I guess one of the problems is we do not agree on when this takes place. The other problems are probably associated with misunderstanding what alam, olam, aion and aionios mean and scriptures that refer to the reconciliation of all, the restoration of all things, the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world, Jesus drawing all men to Himself, Jesus the Savior of all mankind, a heavenly Father who loves His enemies, and the just punishment for sin being death and not endless torment.
I know I had this same struggle with UR because of my misconceptions about hell being a place of endless torment it simply doesn't jive with Father's character or the many scriptures that indicate UR. Jesus was sent to save the world, all of mankind and rescue all creation and restore all things, I believe He is successful and He accomplishes what He was sent to do.
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