Instruction in righteousness
- Thread starter Episkopos
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Well who am I brother.....we may be talking past each other at times, as far as I can tell you don't seem to understand what I've been trying to say and there are things I don't understand with what you're saying. I'm happy to hear about the pursuit of holiness, but very much disagree with your take on imputed righteousness and gift of righteousness. As I was trying to say, that is only harmful if people insist on camping out there instead of growing. (God's word has a way of testing hearts - but that doesn't mean we are to nullify any of it.)
Yes, agree for sure the churches are in a bad state overall in the west. I suspect deception becomes its own judgment - captivity. After judgment can come restoration though, at least that continues to be my hope and prayer for the church.
Just notice what people are saying that agree with your take. They are happy to have God's unconditional approval. They are happy to be "saved". As long as people take a sample of grace for the full measure, the church will remain dead and/or in a deep sleep. This was prophesied...the "rouach tardemah".
Consider this anecdotal statement by a poster in this thread..."Our inner spirit submits to the Christ who is already in us and we in him. It's already done. It's not some mish-mash progressive process. It's accomplished. It is done. We were bought for a price, paid in blood."
Or else how a false doctrine gets Enoch to state that he is as righteous as God. Imagine how far from the truth that is...
That’s why it’s so sad and awful. If you don’t hunger for righteousness, convinced you are already as righteous as Jesus by bad doctrine, then you won’t ask for what you lack, and you don’t have because you don’t ask. So everyone continues in the flesh instead of having their flesh put under them.
Its those who hunger for righteousness who will be filled.
But if you convince people they are rich, they won’t ask for what they lack.
Its those who hunger for righteousness who will be filled.
But if you convince people they are rich, they won’t ask for what they lack.
We are to EXCEED the
self-righteousness of the Pharisees.
Cup outside clean by self promotion or works, inside worse than a stopped-up sewer line.
No man nor ourself can give righteousness unto us. Good gifts comes from the Father, who is not slack concerning his promises unto us. When We ask, LET US BE SURE NOT TO ASK AMISS BUT INSIDE GOD'S WILL AND HIS TRUTH !
self-righteousness of the Pharisees.
Cup outside clean by self promotion or works, inside worse than a stopped-up sewer line.
No man nor ourself can give righteousness unto us. Good gifts comes from the Father, who is not slack concerning his promises unto us. When We ask, LET US BE SURE NOT TO ASK AMISS BUT INSIDE GOD'S WILL AND HIS TRUTH !
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Amen. Jesus on the throne within...the holy place of our hearts. He is in us, but how much are we allowing Him to actually rule and manifest Himself, as that is what we are to grow in.
He has atoned for our sins and we don't want to lose sight of that, it is encouraging when we truly need it. But there still remains the need to grow and mature - to come to a place of full surrender of our life, lock stock and barrel, and we don't want to seem to have come short of that. There are lots of warnings and admonishments in scripture that keep driving us on and running toward the goal. The story of the ten lepers comes to mind as one...most of us have tended to carry on with our lives as we see fit instead of offering and fully surrendering our life back to Jesus in gratitude, pouring it back out to Him as a drink offering.
Well yes, it's already done....or is it? Already under His feet, but we do not yet see it. What has happened inwardly needs to manifest outwardly. So I see it as being kind of both at the same time and many of us are in a state of growth in between. There is a need to surrender our whole life, lock stock and barrel, not just little bits of it here and there as we see fit. Most of us are like the 9 lepers that went off to live life more or less as we saw fit...oh I'm sure they went to the temple periodically and brough the Lord a token, but we owe Him much more than that. We owe Him our ALL. Preaching to myself.
Yes, that’s it. We need to grow and mature and it happens from the inside out. What begins within as the tiniest seed, becomes a plant large enough for birds to nest in. He grows in us from small beginnings to a fruitful life where the inner transforms the outer. It’s that inner place where ‘born again’ takes place and the new life is a spiritual beginning, spirit giving birth to spirit.
Amen. And a tree only really produces fruit when it is mature enough. As long as people ARE growing and straining for what lies ahead. The problem that I understand Episkopos is addressing is where many in the church have become complacent...resting on their laurels instead of growing. Camping out on the shore of the Red Sea instead of trying to get into the Promised Land. That is the lukewarmness that Jesus said would cause Him to spit those out of His body....thinking they are rich and have need of nothing. I can see what Epi is talking about with that. Taking salvation for granted like the 9 lepers. They need the harder-to-digest meat of the word to provoke and prod them onward to the goal, and that is what many churches are completely neglecting. They are only willing to hear the warm and fuzzy, easy-to-hear side of things. Fine for babes, newer believers who are just getting established in their faith....but that becomes a dangerous place to just sit and comfortably camp out in indefinitely for those who "by now ought to be" growing up and able to bear the less comfortable truths.
I think at bottom, as far as I can tell, we've all got the same end goal in mind in this conversation, even though we differ in some of the details. Ironing sharpening iron.
Well said, I hope many will listen to your words here.
Keep in mind the wilderness walk that we as Gentiles are in spiritually. Why we fail to manifest outwardly is because we are still trapped on the wrong side of the Jordan. We are in Adam until we enter INTO Christ. Into the Promised land where we cease to be "IN Adam" (Hebrew be-Adam). This is not a slow growth thing but a cataclysmic event that sees us translated miraculously into the higher walk. Until then, being satisfied with the wilderness walk, thinking it is the same as the higher Promised Land walk, just confuses the issue and guarantees we remain IN Adam. The state of the church should dispel any doubts about the accuracy of the Exodus narrative.
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Yes. And I think most or all of us agree with you here...you have found the middle-ground, so to speak.
But the difference is the fact that there is more than 1 salvation we need to cross over into. There is "saved from", and "saved to". There are the righteous, and the holy. In Psalms 116 it says "I will raise up the cup of salvations"...plural. Although translations ignore that fact.
I have encountered many who understand the incremental walk...improving oneself over time...but few who understand the need to be translated into another realm. (always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth). That's where the mocking and ridicule come in. But that is what it means to be a fool for Christ. The truth is that no one improves into holiness and the perfection of being in Christ. So then the incremental walk is a perpetual walk in one's own strength...even if that life is LED by the Spirit.
How hard was it for the Israelites to think they could conquer a greater people than themselves...impossible. But a few believed with God ANYTHING was possible. So then we have to take the biblical narrative by faith and realize that with Christ ALL things are possible. We can walk in His resurrection life...simply by being translated to be with Him WHERE He is. And that is not the wilderness walk...but rather the highway of holiness.
Until then. a humble stance of following Christ is in order...seeking, asking and knocking, until we are permitted (approved) to take the HUGE step into holiness. That step involves being crucified with Him so that we can live a life that is raised with Him in is His resurrection life.
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Sorry, but we are in Adam as long as we are alive. We are on 'this' side of the Jordan all our days. You've created a false narrative where you imagine that you are no longer a part of humanity, suddenly on a higher path. That's not spirituality, it's imagination. If you think that your flesh was translated miraculously into this higher walk, into the Promised Land, into Zion and that those places are earthly, you've missed it every bit as badly as those Israelites. It's not magical.
That seed that @Lizbeth is talking about is not the life. The Life is IN the seed. The seed is a covering for it. And you are the seed that becomes a fruit bearing tree if and only if that tree matures and ONLY if that Life remains in you. The Life came from above and descended, you didn't ascend to it on some higher progressive path. It was given to you.
You've twisted things, and turned faith from an exercise program into some sort of miracle grow --Free samples! Buy the rest!
No. I don't buy it.
Subject yourselves to one another in the fear of Christ. For flesh and blood are not our enemy.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. They do not want us to subject ourselves one to another because they do not want us to walk in that kind of power that defeats them and that sees what we agree on and ask for being made manifest.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. They do not want us to subject ourselves one to another because they do not want us to walk in that kind of power that defeats them and that sees what we agree on and ask for being made manifest.
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